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The Constitutional Right to Bear Arms Has Outlived Its Usefulness

RetiredUSN said:
Hey Aristotle.......... we have 320 million people now. We had 2.5 million back then.
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You also had a war back then too where you don't now . You've also lost more to domestic firearms since 2000 than you did in both world wars combined
 
RetiredUSN said:
Take away criminal activity and your argument goes to crap.
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So why does our criminal activity not achieve similar per capita casualties do you think ? Could it be they cannot simply buy a gun second hand from a 'good citizen' who did not know they were a criminal ?
 
flogger said:
So why does our criminal activity not achieve similar per capita casualties do you think ? Could it be they cannot simply buy a gun second hand from a 'good citizen' who did not know they were a criminal ?
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Like I said........ take away criminal activity and your argument goes to crap. Stop trying to change the equation by using statistics from the UK where self protection rights were neutered years ago. I don't give a crap if you like our constitution or not, your country is the reason we have our constitutional laws to begin with.....especially the 2nd amendment.
 
flogger said:
You also had a war back then too where you don't now . You've also lost more to domestic firearms since 2000 than you did in both world wars combined
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you are not being truthful. we lost more in WWII and WWI (abut 521K)

and if you get rid of suicides, you are really way off

and I really don't care about criminals killing criminals
 
flogger said:
So why does our criminal activity not achieve similar per capita casualties do you think ? Could it be they cannot simply buy a gun second hand from a 'good citizen' who did not know they were a criminal ?
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Because you are not thinking or reasoning. Why did you not pick Honduras, Mexico, Salvador or Switzerland as comparisons? What is wrong with doing that? Can you answer that?
 
flogger said:
You also had a war back then too where you don't now . You've also lost more to domestic firearms since 2000 than you did in both world wars combined
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And considerably more are lost to medical malpractice, over prescription and incorrect prescription. What is your point if saving lives is your objective?

Could it be you just don't hate doctors?
 
RetiredUSN said:
Like I said........ take away criminal activity and your argument goes to crap. Stop trying to change the equation by using statistics from the UK where self protection rights were neutered years ago. I don't give a crap if you like our constitution or not, your country is the reason we have our constitutional laws to begin with.....especially the 2nd amendment.
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Well just to give an example to the contrary. Why are some 17 times more children killed in gun accidents in the home than in all the rest of the developed world combined Were they criminals too ?
 
TurtleDude said:
you are not being truthful. we lost more in WWII and WWI (abut 521K)

and if you get rid of suicides, you are really way off

and I really don't care about criminals killing criminals
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No what you really care most about is your guns because as you said yourself they make you feel more 'heroic'. :lol:

I guess all those 'other' people will just have to keep on dying then because as you've also said you really don't care right ?
 
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flogger said:
Well just to give an example to the contrary. Why are some 17 times more children killed in gun accidents in the home than in all the rest of the developed world combined Were they criminals too ?
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Abysmal, does the US not have the highest firearm ownership rate? Are these things so difficult for you the figure out.
 
flogger said:
Well just to give an example to the contrary. Why are some 17 times more children killed in gun accidents in the home than in all the rest of the developed world combined Were they criminals too ?
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Wow all 62 of them from more than a million firearm owners. One could only wish vehicle owners had such an exemplary record of safety.

You need a citation for that claim.
 
flogger said:
No what you really care most about is your guns because as you said yourself they make you feel more 'heroic'. :lol:
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It certainly is a lot more heroic to take responsibility for you own safety than to hide quivering in fear behind governments skirts.

I guess all those 'other' people will just have to keep on dying then because as you've also said you really don't care right ?
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You must mean gun control advocates since they are on record of not caring. Which gun control advocate has expressed one moments regret for creating the nut and criminal magnet out of schools or cared about the death of one single child? Name one.
 
Crimefree said:
Wow all 62 of them from more than a million firearm owners. One could only wish vehicle owners had such an exemplary record of safety.

You need a citation for that claim.
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More like a hundred million. That puts the per capita at about 0.06/100k which, stastically, is very small, essentially noise. Compare that to drowning, Unintentional Drowning: Get the Facts | Home and Recreational Safety | CDC Injury Center, where about 700 children die each year. That's an absolute number 10x higher for a smaller population (14 yo or younger for drowning vs 17 yo or younger for gun accidents). So if one really wants to protect children, banning pools, boating, and bathtubs would save more lives than banning guns.
 
Citizen.Seven said:
More like a hundred million. That puts the per capita at about 0.06/100k which, stastically, is very small, essentially noise. Compare that to drowning, Unintentional Drowning: Get the Facts | Home and Recreational Safety | CDC Injury Center, where about 700 children die each year. That's an absolute number 10x higher for a smaller population (14 yo or younger for drowning vs 17 yo or younger for gun accidents). So if one really wants to protect children, banning pools, boating, and bathtubs would save more lives than banning guns.
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Oops, yes absolutely correct closer to a guess of 200,000,000

It just goes to show the hypocrisy of gun control advocates and the fact they are not driven by a desire to save lives but by a fear of guns.
 
flogger said:
So why does our criminal activity not achieve similar per capita casualties do you think ?
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The only reason they need guns is for turf wars.

Could it be they cannot simply buy a gun second hand from a 'good citizen' who did not know they were a criminal ?
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Do not be so foolish as to suggest criminals cannot obtain guns when you know that UK has more illegal guns than ever before and no problem supplying contraband from cigarettes, alcohol, drugs and guns. Do you live is some isolated cave in Beinn Griam Mor in Sutherland?
 
The problem is not someone repealing the 2nd A, they know that they cannot win there. But what they can do is ban large numbers of specific types of firearms based on nothing more than their own propaganda or make it so difficult and/or expensive to buy them or the ammunition that many will never be able to exercise their Rights the Founders tried to ensure.
 
flogger said:
No what you really care most about is your guns because as you said yourself they make you feel more 'heroic'. :lol:

I guess all those 'other' people will just have to keep on dying then because as you've also said you really don't care right ?
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that claim is a lie. I never said such a thing. I don't care about your rants about our rights. Your proposals are nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to harass conservative gun owners and impose the nanny state misery upon free people. That is what I don't care about

You labor under the delusion that your Solutions actually would save lives and from that fiction, you Assume I don't care about saving lives

I reject your claims and do not accept your assumptions so yes-I do not care about fraudulent "solutions" that you propose
 
TurtleDude said:
that claim is a lie. I never said such a thing. I don't care about your rants about our rights. Your proposals are nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to harass conservative gun owners and impose the nanny state misery upon free people. That is what I don't care about

You labor under the delusion that your Solutions actually would save lives and from that fiction, you Assume I don't care about saving lives

I reject your claims and do not accept your assumptions so yes-I do not care about fraudulent "solutions" that you propose
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I agree with everything you stated, except one; banners and not out to harass "conservative" gun owners, they want to harass All gun owners. Yes, they may be delusional enough to believe that almost all gun owners are conservatives but their actions effect all gun owners and banners dislike all gun owners.
 
Casper said:
I agree with everything you stated, except one; banners and not out to harass "conservative" gun owners, they want to harass All gun owners. Yes, they may be delusional enough to believe that almost all gun owners are conservatives but their actions effect all gun owners and banners dislike all gun owners.
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we have no argument. I am focusing on their intent and you on their impact. Both of us are correct
 
Casper said:
The problem is not someone repealing the 2nd A, they know that they cannot win there. But what they can do is ban large numbers of specific types of firearms based on nothing more than their own propaganda or make it so difficult and/or expensive to buy them or the ammunition that many will never be able to exercise their Rights the Founders tried to ensure.
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That is absolutely correct, based on historical precedent (NFA, AWB, etc). Somehow, some way, they can still maintain with an apparently straight face that such laws don't violate the 2A. The FFL background check is the one that cracks me up the most: name another recognized right that one has to prove eligibility prior to exercise. As I understand it, courts have ruled that constitutional since one does not necessarily have to go to a gun shop to buy, there's a private market. Not sure how that's going to play out if universal background checks get written into law.
 
Citizen.Seven said:
That is absolutely correct, based on historical precedent (NFA, AWB, etc). Somehow, some way, they can still maintain with an apparently straight face that such laws don't violate the 2A. The FFL background check is the one that cracks me up the most: name another recognized right that one has to prove eligibility prior to exercise. As I understand it, courts have ruled that constitutional since one does not necessarily have to go to a gun shop to buy, there's a private market. Not sure how that's going to play out if universal background checks get written into law.
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I doubt many Americans will comply, I know that I will not be giving up any of my guns and sure as heck will not be performing background checks for a private sale to another person. The more the government pushes the more people will start pushing back, eventually someone is going to lose. The gun control crowd have an agenda and it is not to keep criminals from obtaining guns, nor is it to make anyone safer, the goal is to destroy the 2nd A and get guns out of the hands of the citizens. This is not going to end with the loss of 2nd A rights, there is only so much the government can enforce on an unwilling populace.
 
flogger said:
So why does our criminal activity not achieve similar per capita casualties do you think ? Could it be they cannot simply buy a gun second hand from a 'good citizen' who did not know they were a criminal ?
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More likely, they buy their gun from the corner pimp/drug dealer/purveyer of stolen property/gun dealer.

Or they simply steal it.
 
Casper said:
I doubt many Americans will comply, I know that I will not be giving up any of my guns and sure as heck will not be performing background checks for a private sale to another person. The more the government pushes the more people will start pushing back, eventually someone is going to lose. The gun control crowd have an agenda and it is not to keep criminals from obtaining guns, nor is it to make anyone safer, the goal is to destroy the 2nd A and get guns out of the hands of the citizens. This is not going to end with the loss of 2nd A rights, there is only so much the government can enforce on an unwilling populace.
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the real goal is to cause people to no longer join and support the NRA and that in turn leads to the NRA not having near the power it has politically. The gun haters really hate the NRA supporting politicians who almost never are welfare-socialist liberals
 
TurtleDude said:
the real goal is to cause people to no longer join and support the NRA and that in turn leads to the NRA not having near the power it has politically. The gun haters really hate the NRA supporting politicians who almost never are welfare-socialist liberals
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Oh I don't know if that is 100% accurate, many of us do not and have never belonged to the NRA, but recent events have me reconsidering that and they do give a nice welcome aboard gift:mrgreen:
It might be part of their game plan but my concern is their goal, which will not be achieved without much bloodshed, we are not Australian sheep-people that will meekly march in and turn over our guns because the government says to, not until we unload them first:shoot
 
Casper said:
Oh I don't know if that is 100% accurate, many of us do not and have never belonged to the NRA, but recent events have me reconsidering that and they do give a nice welcome aboard gift:mrgreen:
It might be part of their game plan but my concern is their goal, which will not be achieved without much bloodshed, we are not Australian sheep-people that will meekly march in and turn over our guns because the government says to, not until we unload them first:shoot
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well the Bannite movement has several components (just as the democrat Party has lots of sheep, some elites, and some libertines who don't like the bible thumpers, and the GOP has libertarians, pro business types, and the social control freaks), and many are the WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING hysterics like the Million mad mothers or the Everytown for Hysteria etc. But the Democrat schemers in office-its all about killing off a group that is very effective in keeping Democrats out of office
 
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