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Why is gun control justified?

TurtleDude said:
that's the overt argument

here's the real one

gun owners don't vote for Democrats and thus need to be punished
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That is not true. I sometimes vote for Democrats and I am a gun owner, reloader, and shooter. I have two close friends at the range where I shoot and they are gun owners and they vote for Democrats. I casually know several other gun owners there who vote for Democrats.
Joe
 
ProJoe said:
That is not true. I sometimes vote for Democrats and I am a gun owner, reloader, and shooter. I have two close friends at the range where I shoot and they are gun owners and they vote for Democrats. I casually know several other gun owners there who vote for Democrats.
Joe
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I don't believe your claims. You want to ban semi autos

You want to ban normal capacity magazines

You want to ban handguns

Not all Democrats are gun banners but almost every gun banner is a left-winger
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't believe your claims. You want to ban semi autos

You want to ban normal capacity magazines

You want to ban handguns

Not all Democrats are gun banners but almost every gun banner is a left-winger
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Well, you have the right to believe what you want. But I am telling you the truth. I am a gun owner, reloader, and shooter, and I vote for Democrats. The friends at the range I mentioned are gun owners and shooters and they vote for Democrats. One good friend of mine who at one time was the president of our local teacher's union is an avid gun owner and shooter and he always votes for Democrats. You said "gun owners" which implies all gun owners don't vote for Democrats. If you would have said some gun owners or most gun owners don't vote for Democrats, I probably would have agreed with you. But as I have stated, there are gun owners and shooters who vote for Democrats because I am one and I personally know others.
Joe
 
ProJoe said:
Well, you have the right to believe what you want. But I am telling you the truth. I am a gun owner, reloader, and shooter, and I vote for Democrats. The friends at the range I mentioned are gun owners and shooters and they vote for Democrats. One good friend of mine who at one time was the president of our local teacher's union is an avid gun owner and shooter and he always votes for Democrats. You said "gun owners" which implies all gun owners don't vote for Democrats. If you would have said some gun owners or most gun owners don't vote for Democrats, I probably would have agreed with you. But as I have stated, there are gun owners and shooters who vote for Democrats because I am one and I personally know others.
Joe
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Lots of union types own guns and vote democrat. If gun rights and the second amendment are very important to you, Its hard to justify voting for the Party that wants to ban guns and which has been responsible for EVERY federal violation of our second amendment rights. The fact is, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for anyone who claims to be a gun owner but somehow thinks the government ought to ban all sorts of firearms. I don't know if its due to cowardly appeasement or a fundamental lack of understanding of the second amendment, or an attitude that others ought only own firearms that the banner thinks is appropriate. No matter the reason, its disgusting in my book.
 
TurtleDude said:
Lots of union types own guns and vote democrat. If gun rights and the second amendment are very important to you, Its hard to justify voting for the Party that wants to ban guns and which has been responsible for EVERY federal violation of our second amendment rights. The fact is, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for anyone who claims to be a gun owner but somehow thinks the government ought to ban all sorts of firearms. I don't know if its due to cowardly appeasement or a fundamental lack of understanding of the second amendment, or an attitude that others ought only own firearms that the banner thinks is appropriate. No matter the reason, its disgusting in my book.
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Guns are not my life. Gun owning and shooting is just something that I do and is very low on my priority list. I have many other interests that are much more fascinating than guns and shooting such as playing the banjo, teaching banjo students, performing in coffee houses, fly tying, fly fishing, being active in the retired division of the Teacher's Union; all of these things are more important to me than guns or shooting. Also, there are issues that are more important than gun rights such as healthcare, education, adequate worker's pay, global warming, alternative fuels, a clean environment, and others. Democrats seem to be the only ones who have their heads together on these issues. If certain guns are banned then so be it. I have plenty of other things to do.
Joe
 
ProJoe said:
Guns are not my life. Gun owning and shooting is just something that I do and is very low on my priority list. I have many other interests that are much more fascinating than guns and shooting such as playing the banjo, teaching banjo students, performing in coffee houses, fly tying, fly fishing, being active in the retired division of the Teacher's Union; all of these things are more important to me that guns or shooting. Also, there are issues that are more important than gun rights such as healthcare, education, adequate worker's pay, global warming, alternative fuels, a clean environment, and others. Democrats seem to be the only ones who have their heads together on these issues. If certain guns are banned then so be it. I have plenty of other things to do.
Joe
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you just proved my point-thanks
 
ProJoe said:
LOL!!!!

Joe
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would you like me to explain or are you able to get it on your own?

teachers union-LOL, that explains everything
 
ProJoe said:
Guns are not my life. Gun owning and shooting is just something that I do and is very low on my priority list. I have many other interests that are much more fascinating than guns and shooting such as playing the banjo, teaching banjo students, performing in coffee houses, fly tying, fly fishing, being active in the retired division of the Teacher's Union; all of these things are more important to me than guns or shooting. Also, there are issues that are more important than gun rights such as healthcare, education, adequate worker's pay, global warming, alternative fuels, a clean environment, and others. Democrats seem to be the only ones who have their heads together on these issues. If certain guns are banned then so be it. I have plenty of other things to do.
Joe
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First why are you equating the 2A to gun ownership when it is clearly intended to provide for personal safety and FREEDOM.

Would you say the same about your right to free speech or a fair trial?

Just curious why you will give up your right without so much as an argument or objection. Personally I think the NRA is al least partially to blame for this abysmal situation by not leading the way to education of people on the value of our rights.
 
Crimefree said:
First why are you equating the 2A to gun ownership when it is clearly intended to provide for personal safety and FREEDOM.

Would you say the same about your right to free speech or a fair trial?

Just curious why you will give up your right without so much as an argument or objection. Personally I think the NRA is al least partially to blame for this abysmal situation by not leading the way to education of people on the value of our rights.
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That's funny. I don't see the Second Amendment mentioned in my post.
Joe
 
ProJoe said:
That's funny. I don't see the Second Amendment mentioned in my post.
Joe
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Why would you expect to see it there? The fact you own guns is due to it's existence. It's deductive thinking.

OK paint by numbers then

You said
Guns are not my life. Gun owning and shooting is just something that I do and is very low on my priority list. I have many other interests that are much more fascinating than guns and shooting.
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The only thing that allows you to own guns is the 2A. Can you follow that logic?

Thus when you give up that right you give up what the right PROTECTS. Can you follow that logic?

What the 2A protects is your safety and that of everyone as well as your freedom Can you follow that deduction from the reasons above?

Just because you could not be bothered with writing does not mean you should abandon the right of free speech. Would you protect that if need be?

Brick wall?
 
Crimefree said:
Why would you expect to see it there? The fact you own guns is due to it's existence. It's deductive thinking.

OK paint by numbers then



The only thing that allows you to own guns is the 2A. Can you follow that logic?

Thus when you give up that right you give up what the right PROTECTS. Can you follow that logic?

What the 2A protects is your safety and that of everyone as well as your freedom Can you follow that deduction from the reasons above?

Just because you could not be bothered with writing does not mean you should abandon the right of free speech. Would you protect that if need be?

Brick wall?
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But I don't see gun owning as being a "right." I believe that with a right should come responsibility. There are just too many gun owners who are not responsible. The range where I shoot is loaded (pun intended) with "responsible" gun owners and shooters, yet I constantly see range violations to the point where I rarely go there to shoot anymore. I even saw a shooter shot and killed with a semi auto handgun there last year; a gun he "thought" was not loaded. Anyway, with writing also comes responsibility, so when you write something, be responsible as much of what you wrote makes no sense.
Joe
 
ProJoe said:
But I don't see gun owning as being a "right."
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Regardless, it is.

I believe that with a right should come responsibility.
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Since you do not see gun ownership as a right, why does this matter?

There are just too many gun owners who are not responsible.
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Define "not responsible"; how many gun owners meet this definition?

I even saw a shooter shot and killed with a semi auto handgun there last year; a gun he "thought" was not loaded.
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Darwin in Action.
 
ProJoe said:
Well, you have the right to believe what you want. But I am telling you the truth. I am a gun owner, reloader, and shooter, and I vote for Democrats. The friends at the range I mentioned are gun owners and shooters and they vote for Democrats. One good friend of mine who at one time was the president of our local teacher's union is an avid gun owner and shooter and he always votes for Democrats. You said "gun owners" which implies all gun owners don't vote for Democrats. If you would have said some gun owners or most gun owners don't vote for Democrats, I probably would have agreed with you. But as I have stated, there are gun owners and shooters who vote for Democrats because I am one and I personally know others.
Joe
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You are wondering at a common misconception that firearm owners come with some inborn knowledge to protect the rights that allow them to enjoy firearm ownership.

To many this is as obvious as night and day because they have taken the time and trouble to educate themselves. They are perfectly correct as an unprotected right is no right at all. To them not wanting to protect what guarantees our personal safety and freedom is simply crazy.

What they do not realise is that nobody protects what they do not VALUE. It is quite obvious that a very large percentage of firearm owners do not value that right. This is not some insignificant matter because it is what will eventually cause the demise of firearm ownership. It is part of the incremental approach used by gun control to keep firearm owners focused on GUNS not their rights because that is what gun control really wants, our rights

Shoot don't shoot but never give up your rights. Never give so much a as a micron and fight all invasions of those rights. We are who we are only becasue of those rights.
 
jet57 said:
Here's something on the N.Y. law from 2013 Cuomo Acknowledges 7-Round Magazines Don't Exist -- NYMag



So, it's not very likely that your dad HAD to sell his comp guns or move out of state to keep them.



What's "a total knee" ? He got sick and entered the nursing home is a very vague thing to say. He likely had his knee operated on and was layed up for what? six or seven weeks recuperating where he had access to physical therapy. The sheriff came to his home and took away is guns for six or seven weeks?

Something's wrong or very incomplete with that story. If he wound permanently housed there due to physical incapacity and perhaps age, then scenario one applies: he wasn't coming home again and there was no family members to take over his guns, so the law took them. There can't be any other explanations for it, even in New York.



Again, the cops won't take someone's gun away who's just recuperating for a few weeks. And an abandoned car WILL be towed away after a few weeks if it's not regularly moved and there's nobody available to take charge of it. So, sorry man, but something's goofy with your examples.
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Under the law.. he would have had to give up his firearm or sell it.. since it would not operate with seven round magazine. it was only when it was pointed out to Cuomo that he acknowledged this point.

It created a furor in NY because the law was so ridiculous. Which just goes to prove our point regarding you gun control enthusiasts.

And yes. the sheriff came to confiscate his guns because he was recuperating for a few weeks in the SNF.

Of course its absurd. So is choking out and killing a man for selling loose cigarettes.

I think that's a huge irony of the left and their gun control stance. they continually point out abuse and overreach by the police.. and then they assure us gun owners that when it comes to firearms.. there will be no overreach and abuse of gun laws by the police.
 
TurtleDude said:
would you like me to explain or are you able to get it on your own?

teachers union-LOL, that explains everything
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whoa their bud. My father is an avid shooter.. was a competitive shooter up until his 70's (only stopping because he moved from new York to where I live), is a Lifetime NRA member, a former hunting education instructor, a registered republican.. and was not only teacher but a member of the teachers union in NY and contract negotiator.

Your way off base with your assumptions.
 
ProJoe said:
But I don't see gun owning as being a "right." I believe that with a right should come responsibility. There are just too many gun owners who are not responsible.
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OK now I am fighting cognitive dissonance as we have just been through accidental deaths all 500..600 of them and that is INSIGNIFICANT in comparison to all others. It is not possible to accord your statement with that fact so you have somehow rationalised it. Think again. There is evidence to show that irresponsible thinking is completely wrong and replace it with facts, known facts, facts you can check yourself.

It is a right if only due to the fact the constitution affirms it as a right everyone should enjoy. Are you saying that 600 deaths from many millions of gun owners is irresponsible? You got that from gun control did you not and never checked if it was fact or lie? Lie promise. If gun control makes a claim the surest bet in the world is that will be a lie.

The range where I shoot is loaded (pun intended) with "responsible" gun owners and shooters, yet I constantly see range violations to the point where I rarely go there to shoot anymore.
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Ranges should have range control it really is absolutely necessary. If it is an open range without control find another or suggest to the range owner control is needed and start training range officers to take control. It's your life. Nobody should be handling a gun on a range unless shooting.

I even saw a shooter shot and killed with a semi auto handgun there last year; a gun he "thought" was not loaded.
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No accident has ever happened with a loaded firearm. It is always unloaded.

Anyway, with writing also comes responsibility, so when you write something, be responsible as much of what you wrote makes no sense.
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Bear that in mind that when you criticize in general it help nobody. If you do not understand the correct way is simply ask. I'm not going to bite your head off. i reserve that for those who desperately need it.
 
Crimefree said:
Why would you expect to see it there? The fact you own guns is due to it's existence. It's deductive thinking.

OK paint by numbers then



The only thing that allows you to own guns is the 2A. Can you follow that logic?

Thus when you give up that right you give up what the right PROTECTS. Can you follow that logic?

What the 2A protects is your safety and that of everyone as well as your freedom Can you follow that deduction from the reasons above?

Just because you could not be bothered with writing does not mean you should abandon the right of free speech. Would you protect that if need be?

Brick wall?
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I don't agree with that. we have the ability to own guns at a federal level because we always had that right and the federal government did not completely violate the tenth amendment. at the state level, the second amendment hasn't really played much of a role until a few years ago
 
TurtleDude said:
I don't agree with that. we have the ability to own guns at a federal level because we always had that right and the federal government did not completely violate the tenth amendment. at the state level, the second amendment hasn't really played much of a role until a few years ago
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Guilty of simplification :lol:

You will forgive as you know I am well aware of the rights source. I was trying to emphasise the need for protection of what most see as the right. I think the real point is that this right has little value to many firearm owners who think I don't need a gun, the right is of no use to me. What it protects is a mystery to them. It should not be. The 2A is the key stone of the constitution.
 
What do we gain by having guns?
 
How does us having guns ensure freedom?
 
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