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Advice to President Obama [W:253]

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I clearly differentiated between most gun owners and the crowd who views them as tools to go to war against our own people. I agree there is an element in my strategy of identifying and isolating a certain group who is an obstacle. But that is the unavoidable nature of the public policy game where positions are deeply dug in and I accept that.

Sure, it's all Saul Alinsky. I accept that also.
 
Lets go into this in detail then and perhaps you may have a point. Turtle, you have claimed repeatedly that you are an expert on this topic. Allow us to use your expertise and in doing so it will hopefully prove your point and we can move past this issue.

As an expert in this field, could you provide verifiable evidence for us containing all the incidents in modern history - let us say the past two centuries - where a government adopted registration of guns? Then could you tell us with the same verifiable evidence the number of those same countries which used it as a step to a ban on weapons and confiscation of those that were registered.

We can then see just how sweeping this 'problem' is and if it is a rarity or something that is quite common and a rule rather than the exception to the rule.

I myself have looked for this data but can find nothing. But I am not an expert on the subject.

thank you.

how do you think England confiscated handguns
 
Sorry, but I do not deal in cliche's. As you seem to be so fond of them as a source of proven wisdom, I leave that province to you.

so your comments about "gun culture" etc are not "cliches"?
 
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I am still waiting for your answer, if you don't care, just say it

those are my posts-and what are your suggestions

Most of your suggestions are contrary to known reality
 
those are my posts-and what are your suggestions

Most of your suggestions are contrary to known reality

I guess you have better ideas, but why are you keeping them a secret, what specifically that I suggested is contrary to known reality?
 
I guess you have better ideas, but why are you keeping them a secret, what specifically that I suggested is contrary to known reality?

why not post them again. there are so many silly suggestions on this forum form anti gun types. the posts you referenced were mine
 
why not post them again. there are so many silly suggestions on this forum form anti gun types. the posts you referenced were mine

EarlzP I support initiatives that will have a positive impact on reducing and or preventing gun violence that should not cause second amendment challenges

I think prevention should be the main goal, no matter what we do a few people will slip through the cracks

1- Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all purchases and sales
2-Safe entries and exits to all public buildings
A-Metal detectors
B-Trained experienced armed guards
3-Building lock downs
a-Limit access if a shooting or other incident occurs

None of the 3 actions listed above would infringe on the 2nd amendment
The costs associated could be held to a minimum if available on duty police or qualified national guard personnel are used

i don't see why every thing has to be rocket science and create a war between political parties if we all have the same goals of protecting children and adults from deranged or suicidal mass killers. Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all sales and purchases should help keep some of the weapons out of the hands of criminals.
 
EarlzP I support initiatives that will have a positive impact on reducing and or preventing gun violence that should not cause second amendment challenges

I think prevention should be the main goal, no matter what we do a few people will slip through the cracks

1- Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all purchases and sales
2-Safe entries and exits to all public buildings
A-Metal detectors
B-Trained experienced armed guards
3-Building lock downs
a-Limit access if a shooting or other incident occurs

None of the 3 actions listed above would infringe on the 2nd amendment
The costs associated could be held to a minimum if available on duty police or qualified national guard personnel are used

i don't see why every thing has to be rocket science and create a war between political parties if we all have the same goals of protecting children and adults from deranged or suicidal mass killers. Mandatory background checks and gun registration on all sales and purchases should help keep some of the weapons out of the hands of criminals.

how are you going to enforce mandatory background checks for those of us who have guns that have no record of us owning to those who have no duty to keep a record of what they buy

how are you gonna make us register guns we own now?
 
we've already have 2nd amendment rights curtailed.


Question: Which Second Amendment rights have been curtailed? Please cite your sources.
 
I get paid to give advice to politicians. Writing speeches, op-eds for the newspapers, newsletter material, policy statements, press releases - the whole gamut. I have some free advice for the President to further his gun initiatives.

1 - Play to the middle and forget about the NRA and its supporters. They oppose the very concept and the details simply do not matter since they will lie, distort and outright pervert what your are advocating for. Play to the great middle of Americans who respect hunting rights, who respect the need for a weapon for self defense, who respect sporting activities with a firearm, and who simply want something done about both the proliferation of guns in our society and the use of them.

2- Go on the road and take this message to the American people. Make it a pro-hunting, pro self defense, pro sporting and pro responsible gun owner pitch. Use local people who have a good gun record like Senator Joe Manchin in West Virginia in making local appearances.

3- Expose some of the more sinister motivations of the gun crowd who are 100% opposed to his initiatives with a clear, no holding back, direct onslaught of language showing them to be potentially dangerous extremists who have precious little in common with the vast majority of Americans. We hear over and over and over how guns are needed in case we need to fight the government. Use that. Use it often. Shout it loudly and shout it often that we will not allow gun policy to be dictated by people who believe that gun laws should always have an eye on providing equal firepower to go up against soldiers of police officers should the day of the right wing revolution come. Use those folks and that sort of extremism to drive a wedge between the responsible hunting and self defense Americans and those who feel they need to build their own armories when they someday have to man the barricades and want to make sure they are packing enough power to kill the soldier boy or police officer from down the street.

4 - Go back and do number 3 again and again and again. Use film clips of the more radical folks through surrogates going on news and talk shows to show "this is what we are up against." Ask the American people - "are you going to let these extremists speak for you and dictate gun policy so they can be armed for revolution?"

5 - Expose the finances of the gun corporations, the NRA, and the entire gun culture. Show that they are in this for a profit and that is their motivation above all else. They are more than happy to see the proliferation of guns in our society because it means money in their pockets. And if more guns means more negative effects from guns, that is a price they accept.

6- Announce a national memorial to be constructed in Washington DC in honor of the innocent victims of gun violence and involve the public by asking for donations to begin planning and building it. I would use the Viet Nam veterans Memorial as the model for the idea and concept. A stark wall with names upon it although I would go for something high and looming overhead rather than the sprawling design of the VN memorial.

7 - Show the connection between right wing politics and gun politics. This should be done by surrogates rather than the President himself. Demonstrate how the right is using the issue to push other issues which are to the detriment of the American people and its all part of a package and agenda.

8 - Try to get commitments from Hollywood and the gaming industry to act more responsibly and tone down the volume on violence they use in their products.

9 - Take the NRA suggestion of more armed guards in the schools and run with it to Congress asking them to support it and fund it. And publicly challenge the NRA to lobby for it with members of Congress who are supportive of their agenda.

10 - Announce a national mental health summit at the White House and bring in state governors and appropriate professionals to shine the spotlight on how much of the mental health care system has been savaged over the last couple of decades in the drive for smaller and cheaper government and we must begin to turn it around on the state level.

But above all else, do not let this moment evaporate. This must be a top priority just like health care was for the first two years of the administration.

You hit well the nail on the head. The points you make are succinct and reasonable, although I have reservations on Point 9. Now let's hear what the gun extremists have to say. Nope. Out of their mouths will be the same mindless rhetoric which really has nothing to do with the Second Amendment. I mean what reasonable and objective people have to say.
 
how are you going to enforce mandatory background checks for those of us who have guns that have no record of us owning to those who have no duty to keep a record of what they buy

how are you gonna make us register guns we own now?

Why would you not want to register your weapon?
 
Sure, it's all Saul Alinsky. I accept that also.

It is a bit amusing to see people outside the business act so shocked at the normal everyday methodologies used by all people in the political arena on both sides of the aisle. It reminds me of a kid who just found out where babies really come from and how they get started and they just cannot look their mother in the eye for a while. Its rather funny.
 
How would registration save a life?

A requirement to have a background check completed would keep some weapons out of the hands of people who are not allowed to purchase weapons. Registering weapons would be no different then registering a car it makes it possible to trace the weapon back to the legal owner. If you are against background checks and gun registration what are your ideas on how to reduce gun violence and mass murder
 
Why would you not want to register your weapon?

Why volunteer for taxation? If you register a gun that is later banned then it is your loss as it can then not be legally sold or may even be subject to confiscation. Best to keep your private property private. Do you own any piece of gov't registered property that is not subject to taxation? ;)
 
I'm curious haymarket. When, in your opinion, would it have been acceptable for a Jew in Hitler's Germany to shoot a soldier working for the people's government?

That is a decision that can only be made by a person in that situation. I long ago gave up the luxury of the college sophomore who has both the unlimited braggadocio as well as total confidence that they knew everything there was to know and felt they had the correct answer to every moral dilemma.
 
A requirement to have a background check completed would keep some weapons out of the hands of people who are not allowed to purchase weapons. Registering weapons would be no different then registering a car it makes it possible to trace the weapon back to the legal owner. If you are against background checks and gun registration what are your ideas on how to reduce gun violence and mass murder

If I have a weapon stolen then I report it stolen so if it is recovered I can get it back. why would I want the government to know what weapons I own given there are people like you who think those weapons should be confiscated.

I think people ought to only buy narcotics with a doctors' prescription but I have no illusions that most addicts buy drugs through illegal sources. how are you going to make me conduct a background check of a gun I have owned for 20 years that I want to sell to a friend?
 
why would I WANT TO

are you really serious?

I am serious, what is it going to take for you to recognize that some thing has to be done to reduce gun violence?

Do you hunt? Do you need a license to hunt?
 
Why would you not want to register your weapon?

Of course we will all register our weapons.

But the question remains: How will background checks be ensured for those people who have guns with no corresponding record of ownership? Given that a person owns a gun, how will anyone know whether a background check was performed when that gun was acquired?
 
how do you think England confiscated handguns

Apparently you missed the bulk of the post. It was NOT about one isolated example that anybody could pick out. It is an honest attempt to examine the complete issue that you raised. So lets do that.

Lets go into this in detail then and perhaps you may have a point. Turtle, you have claimed repeatedly that you are an expert on this topic. Allow us to use your expertise and in doing so it will hopefully prove your point and we can move past this issue.

As an expert in this field, could you provide verifiable evidence for us containing all the incidents in modern history - let us say the past two centuries - where a government adopted registration of guns? Then could you tell us with the same verifiable evidence the number of those same countries which used it as a step to a ban on weapons and confiscation of those that were registered.

We can then see just how sweeping this 'problem' is and if it is a rarity or something that is quite common and a rule rather than the exception to the rule.

I myself have looked for this data but can find nothing. But I am not an expert on the subject.
 
so your comments about "gun culture" etc are not "cliches"?

They are simply observations on the American political and social scene based on over six decades as a citizen here deeply involved in the process.
 
If I have a weapon stolen then I report it stolen so if it is recovered I can get it back. why would I want the government to know what weapons I own given there are people like you who think those weapons should be confiscated.

Like me? I don't want your weapon taken away from you. Do you really think the government is coming to confiscate your weapons? If you do some thing that has the government coming to your door do you really think you can stop them?

I think people ought to only buy narcotics with a doctors' prescription but I have no illusions that most addicts buy drugs through illegal sources. how are you going to make me conduct a background check of a gun I have owned for 20 years that I want to sell to a friend?[/QUOTE]
 
I am serious, what is it going to take for you to recognize that some thing has to be done to reduce gun violence?

Do you hunt? Do you need a license to hunt?

Gun violence has been dropping for almost two decades. If you want to reduce gun violence than make it receive a LWOP sentence. Hunting license fees are for supporting game management; what would you use self defense license fee funds to manage?
 
That is a decision that can only be made by a person in that situation. I long ago gave up the luxury of the college sophomore who has both the unlimited braggadocio as well as total confidence that they knew everything there was to know and felt they had the correct answer to every moral dilemma.

But you acknowledge that at some point it would have been acceptable, or even desirable, for a Jew in Hitler's Germany to have shot a soldier working for the people's government?
 
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