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marke said:
Never be fooled into believing the US does not have to service its debt or pay back the money it has borrowed.
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We "service" the debt by paying off old debt and issuing new debt. If this alarms you, the last time the United States was debt free was 1835. I'd suggest that we've done pretty well over the last 185 years.

The British government, by the way, has been in debt for more than three centuries, an era spanning the Industrial Revolution, victory over Napoleon, and more.
 
marke said:
National debt of the United States - Wikipedia


debt outstanding, in billions
$billions, US[123] Interest paid
$billions, US[124] Interest rate
2019 22,719 574.6 2.53%
2018 21,516 523.0 2.43%
2017 20,244 458.5 2.26%
2016 19,573 432.6 2.21%
2015 18,150 402.4 2.22%
2014 17,824 430.8 2.42%
2013 16,738 415.7 2.48%
2012 16,066 359.8 2.24%
2011 14,790 454.4 3.07%
2010 13,562 414.0 3.05%
2009 11,910 383.1 3.22%
2008 10,025 451.2 4.50%
2007 9,008 430.0 4.77%
2006 8,507 405.9 4.77%
2005 7,933 352.4 4.44%
2004 7,379 321.6 4.36%
2003 6,783 318.1 4.69%
2002 6,228 332.5 5.34%
2001 5,807 359.5 6.19%
2000 5,674 362.0 6.38%
1999 5,656 353.5 6.25%
1998 5,526 363.8 6.58%
1997 5,413 355.8 6.57%
1996 5,225 344.0 6.58%
1995 4,974 332.4 6.68%
1994 4,693 296.3 6.31%
1993 4,411 292.5 6.63%
1992 4,065 292.4 7.19%
1991 3,665 286.0 7.80%
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Even though the debt increased from $3.66 trillion in 1991 to $22.7 trillion in 2019, the interest paid is relatively stable.

usgs_line.php
 
GDViking said:
Well the self proclaimed king of debt being in charge of the nation's budget should raise concerns.

Good Lord the man can't get a Payday loan in any civilized country except Russia.

I wouldn't let him near my change jar!!!
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It must help you relax to know that he has increased the growth of the debt back to the same rate that Obama had maintained following in W's Footsteps.

;)
 
marke said:
National debt of the United States - Wikipedia


debt outstanding, in billions
$billions, US[123] Interest paid
$billions, US[124] Interest rate
2019 22,719 574.6 2.53%
2018 21,516 523.0 2.43%
2017 20,244 458.5 2.26%
2016 19,573 432.6 2.21%
2015 18,150 402.4 2.22%
2014 17,824 430.8 2.42%
2013 16,738 415.7 2.48%
2012 16,066 359.8 2.24%
2011 14,790 454.4 3.07%
2010 13,562 414.0 3.05%
2009 11,910 383.1 3.22%
2008 10,025 451.2 4.50%
2007 9,008 430.0 4.77%
2006 8,507 405.9 4.77%
2005 7,933 352.4 4.44%
2004 7,379 321.6 4.36%
2003 6,783 318.1 4.69%
2002 6,228 332.5 5.34%
2001 5,807 359.5 6.19%
2000 5,674 362.0 6.38%
1999 5,656 353.5 6.25%
1998 5,526 363.8 6.58%
1997 5,413 355.8 6.57%
1996 5,225 344.0 6.58%
1995 4,974 332.4 6.68%
1994 4,693 296.3 6.31%
1993 4,411 292.5 6.63%
1992 4,065 292.4 7.19%
1991 3,665 286.0 7.80%
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Uhh... So, unless you're suggesting that "all the presidents who came before him" started in 1991, I'm not sure this proves anything. Also... you're including the Trump years, all of which are higher than anything Obama did.

Did you get mixed up, and present the data set I was gonna use to refute you? :lol:
 
marke said:
No nation can escape its obligation to pay back the money it has borrowed.
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I have not claimed anything that you are ascribing in the statement above. The U.S. has the ability to make good on any and all obligations. Recent stimulus is a testament to this.
 
By the title I thought this thread would be about Joe Biden.
 
MTAtech said:
We "service" the debt by paying off old debt and issuing new debt. If this alarms you, the last time the United States was debt free was 1835. I'd suggest that we've done pretty well over the last 185 years.

The British government, by the way, has been in debt for more than three centuries, an era spanning the Industrial Revolution, victory over Napoleon, and more.
Click to expand...

Being in debt is one thing. Being in crushing unsustainable rising debt with no relief in sight is entirely a different thing altogether.
 
marke said:
Never be fooled into believing the US does not have to service its debt or pay back the money it has borrowed.
Click to expand...

I don't want to sound like a radical lefty here because I'm not but I didn't say that we shouldn't "service our debt". I said that technically, we don't really have to pay down principal. In fact, as I said, we are paying down principal now. It's just that for every dollar we pay back, we simultaneously borrow back another $1.25. This could go on forever until the sun goes supernova but we do need to get our debt to gdp ratio down or it will cause hyperinflation.
 
MTAtech said:
Even though the debt increased from $3.66 trillion in 1991 to $22.7 trillion in 2019, the interest paid is relatively stable.

usgs_line.php
Click to expand...

What will happen if interests rates go up? The strains on the US budget may become more than can be borne any longer. What happens if the world economy collapses? Those with power and influence in world banking will have to come up with a new monetary system that will totally transform America under new rules which will be thick with 'share the American wealth' with poor nations around the world. What will happen if or when that happens? Americans will not be rich any more because that kind of wealth will be seen as unfair to the rest of the world.
 
Torus34 said:
Where are all the very serious people who were warning us about the increasing federal debt? I've not heard from them in the last couple of years.

Any information as to their present whereabouts would be appreciated.

Thank you.
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Getting out of parts of the middle east would help, and getting out of Germany is helpful. We spend a buttload of money accomplishing nothing.

BUT, the military promises us the republic will fall if we do.
Raise taxes - people bitch that the rich don’t pay enough of them.
Lower taxes - people bitch the rich get the tax cuts.
Raise taxes on corporations - prices go up because taxes are part of the price of goods.

If paying down the debt was easy, it would have been done already.
How about we start a national program of “everyone works” (but seniors, too young, can’t, etc.) - oops unconstitutional.

The work force is 137 million out of 330 million. Where is everyone?
 
OlNate said:
Uhh... So, unless you're suggesting that "all the presidents who came before him" started in 1991, I'm not sure this proves anything. Also... you're including the Trump years, all of which are higher than anything Obama did.

Did you get mixed up, and present the data set I was gonna use to refute you? :lol:
Click to expand...

Each year additions were added to the debt the total debt reported accommodated those increases. The total debt added under all presidents before Obama was reflected in the $11.9 trillion figure of 2009. The debt added under Obama raised that number to $19.57 trillion in 2016. The debt nearly doubled under Obama in 8 years. The debt in on track to more than double under Trump in 8 years. We should not blame Obama or Trump for this alarming rise. We need to blame Americans and all their elected officials. This trend cannot end well but it will end, in serious disaster, likely sooner than most people think and certainly sooner than people will want.
 
marke said:
What will happen if interests rates go up?
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How do interest rates go up?

What happens if the world economy collapses?
Click to expand...

U.S. Treasury rates go negative.

What will happen if or when that happens?
Click to expand...

The global economy has collapsed due to a virus. We have done what we have done since the late 1930's... increase public debt!

Americans will not be rich any more because that kind of wealth will be seen as unfair to the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

A statement derived from utter ignorance.
 
chuckiechan said:
Raise taxes on corporations - prices go up because taxes are part of the price of goods.
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Corporate tax reform didn't result in lower prices or more domestic production. Instead, it was allotted how it was always intended to be allotted; dividends and bonuses.
 
Kushinator said:
I have not claimed anything that you are ascribing in the statement above. The U.S. has the ability to make good on any and all obligations. Recent stimulus is a testament to this.
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American fiscal stupidity is thick and dangerous. Americans foolishly imagine that the US has unlimited access to money and can never go bankrupt. That is ridiculous and has led to disastrous wild spending practices which are certain to bring America down into bankruptcy which the deceived foolishly think cannot happen.
 
marke said:
Each year additions were added to the debt the total debt reported accommodated those increases. The total debt added under all presidents before Obama was reflected in the $11.9 trillion figure of 2009. The debt added under Obama raised that number to $19.57 trillion in 2016. The debt nearly doubled under Obama in 8 years. The debt in on track to more than double under Trump in 8 years. We should not blame Obama or Trump for this alarming rise. We need to blame Americans and all their elected officials. This trend cannot end well but it will end, in serious disaster, likely sooner than most people think and certainly sooner than people will want.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for explaining the data set a little better, and that's actually a pretty reasonable, fiscally conservative response. We may disagree about what to do about it, but I can't fault you for being unfair in this moment.
 
marke said:
American fiscal stupidity is thick and dangerous
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I don't value your opinion, so simply stating it as a response is a waste of your time.

Americans foolishly imagine that the US has unlimited access to money and can never go bankrupt
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Your opinion isn't derived from fact... it's derived from extreme partisan ignorance.
 
Moderate Right said:
I don't want to sound like a radical lefty here because I'm not but I didn't say that we shouldn't "service our debt". I said that technically, we don't really have to pay down principal. In fact, as I said, we are paying down principal now. It's just that for every dollar we pay back, we simultaneously borrow back another $1.25. This could go on forever until the sun goes supernova but we do need to get our debt to gdp ratio down or it will cause hyperinflation.
Click to expand...

What happens when a debtor does not pay down on the principle while the principle keeps rising, at alarming rates? Both the debtor and the creditor get into big trouble. That is as certain as gravity.
 
marke said:
The debt added under Obama raised that number to $19.57 trillion in 2016. The debt nearly doubled under Obama in 8 years. The debt in on track to more than double under Trump in 8 years. We should not blame Obama or Trump for this alarming rise.
Click to expand...

But during Obama's 8 years the Republicans and their masters in the Conservative media did blame Obama, they put 100% of the blame on him. Hell, there was even a whole movement called the Tea Party sprung up because they supposedly believed that the debt and deficit was going to destroy the country..

Trump comes along and makes the debt and deficit worse, but now it's no longer ANY presidents fault? The TP is gone and no longer protests or believes our debt will destroy the country..

How convenient now that there's an (R) in the WH it's no longer the president's fault.
 
marke said:
Being in debt is one thing. Being in crushing unsustainable rising debt with no relief in sight is entirely a different thing altogether.
Click to expand...
Then I guess you are suggesting that the 2017 tax cut was unwise policy. If you aren’t then what is your policy solution?
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
But during Obama's 8 years the Republicans and their masters in the Conservative media did blame Obama, they put 100% of the blame on him. Hell, there was even a whole movement called the Tea Party sprung up because they supposedly believed that the debt and deficit was going to destroy the country..

Trump comes along and makes the debt and deficit worse, but now it's no longer ANY presidents fault? The TP is gone and no longer protests or believes our debt will destroy the country..

How convenient now that there's an (R) in the WH it's no longer the president's fault.
Click to expand...
Moreover, Obama didn’t do anything to increase the debt. There was a huge recession that dried up government revenue. There were also automatic government programs that kick in when unemployment rises.

None of that is true for Trump, who inherited a healed economy. He and his GOP insisted on slashing taxes on the wealthy and corporations, that created record deficits, without any of the promised benefits.
 
Kushinator said:
Corporate tax reform didn't result in lower prices or more domestic production. Instead, it was allotted how it was always intended to be allotted; dividends and bonuses.
Click to expand...
Lets not forget stock buybacks.
 
marke said:
What will happen if interests rates go up? The strains on the US budget may become more than can be borne any longer. What happens if the world economy collapses? Those with power and influence in world banking will have to come up with a new monetary system that will totally transform America under new rules which will be thick with 'share the American wealth' with poor nations around the world. What will happen if or when that happens? Americans will not be rich any more because that kind of wealth will be seen as unfair to the rest of the world.
Click to expand...
If interest rates rise, new debt will be at the higher rate but old debt remains. It’s been true for many decades that the U.S. government has no trouble finding lenders.
While on that, remember that most debt is owned by Americans. The interest that is paid is a cost to the government but is income to those Americans.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
But during Obama's 8 years the Republicans and their masters in the Conservative media did blame Obama, they put 100% of the blame on him. Hell, there was even a whole movement called the Tea Party sprung up because they supposedly believed that the debt and deficit was going to destroy the country..

Trump comes along and makes the debt and deficit worse, but now it's no longer ANY presidents fault? The TP is gone and no longer protests or believes our debt will destroy the country..

How convenient now that there's an (R) in the WH it's no longer the president's fault.
Click to expand...

I have always blamed Congress for not controlling spending and have blamed democrats for much of the pork spending on democrat causes and organizations. But you are right, I should have blamed Americans in general for electing bad people who do bad things to America and Americans.
 
MTAtech said:
Then I guess you are suggesting that the 2017 tax cut was unwise policy. If you aren’t then what is your policy solution?
Click to expand...

Not taxing or taxing too little will not keep America alive. Taxing too much will kill America. Foolish spending forces tax rates up and endangers America and Americans. There is no excuse for refusing to to apply serious reform measures to cut spending in efforts to save America from fiscal collapse.

Democrats typically call for higher taxes, but why do we need higher taxes? Because we keep spending money we do not have which causes us to need more tax revenues to pay our bills. Any politician who refuses to try to cut spending while advocating raising taxes is incompetent and needs to be replaced.
 
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