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How big will this year's deficit be?

Kushinator said:
You're conflating two distinct dynamics. One is with respect to inflation and the other is with respect to economic equality.
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and you don't think the two are related?

Prices have been increasing faster than the wages of low income workers for some time now. Anything that increases inflation is likely to exacerbate the situation.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
Well, you have to consider how much income was lost, and there was a TON of income lost already. Whole segments of the economy shut down for months, and they won't get back to 100% anytime soon. Bank loans that businesses normally take out to operate went down. So we are basically replacing bank debt with govt. debt to keep demand up and people and businesses afloat. And govt. debt is more stable, they never default.

This is actually what a lot of people have been calling for for years - an increase in "debt-free" money. A lot of European governments basically took over payroll for businesses, which supports people and demand. Businesses have fewer expenses to cover to stay alive. They bailed their economies out from the bottom up, which we should have done.

In the end, this leaves us with a residue of govt.-created money. It stabilizes things. Prices won't go up across the board, because nobody is going to go on a spending spree. They are just surviving. And people who are in better shape will pay down debt. In any case, you want demand to go up when we recover, and that requires money in people's pockets.

This is basically debt monetization. And debt monetization isn't the problem that a lot of people envision.
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I'm going to go with that because it's what I'd like to believe will happen. I hope you're right. We'll soon know.
 
Dittohead not! said:
and you don't think the two are related?

Prices have been increasing faster than the wages of low income workers for some time now. Anything that increases inflation is likely to exacerbate the situation.
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Wanted to let you know that I have really enjoyed the discussions we have had in the past but I am going to take a vacation from Debate Politics for a while as I am really tired of beating my head against the wall and accomplishing very little. Those that want to claim victory due to me leaving so be it, congratulations. Getting tired of being harassed by the radical left in leadership but don't see any reason to continue. Won't be saying goodbye permanently but am going to take a break.
 
Conservative said:
Here is context and oh by the way, doubling the deficit is your claim prove it?
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I did prove it.

There seems to be a real disconnect when it comes to debt and the results generated from that debt thus showing that all debt isn't equal. What exactly did the American taxpayers get out of the Obama debt??

1. The worst recovery from a major recession in modern history
2. Employment not getting back to pre recession levels until 2014
3. Record numbers of part time for economic reason employment meaning part time jobs thus lower taxpaying jobs
4. 500 billion average annual GDP growth for 8 years(4.0 Trillion GDP growth)
5. 9.3% U-6 Unemployment rate
6. Bail out of the pubic sector and claimed saved jobs which didn't generate the promised new jobs thus new taxpayers from 842 billion dollar shovel ready jobs stimulus

What have we gotten for the Trump debt

1. Strong economic growth, 900 billion average GDP growth 2017-2018-2019(2.7 trillion growth)
2. Employment of 6.6 million jobs created in 3 years vs. 6 million jobs created prior to taking office the last 9 years
3. 6.9% U-6 vs. 9.3% that he inherited
4. 1.4 million fewer part time for economic reason employees than inherited
5. 6% African American unemployment vs. the 8% inherited
6. Record state and local tax revenue due to consumer spending as a result of the tax cuts
7. No massive Gov't stimulus program pre pandemic
ext, refute it
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addressed and refuted this already. No economic metric trend lines changed under trump, despite him doubling the deficit in 3 years. It's been on the same unchanging trend line since 2010.
 
99percenter said:
Trump said only he has the power to to start and end social distancing, so he must accept responsibility for all results due to social distancing.
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what he said is irrelevant. he does not have any power or authority to start/stop social distancing. Neither do state governors.
 
Conservative said:
Wanted to let you know that I have really enjoyed the discussions we have had in the past but I am going to take a vacation from Debate Politics for a while as I am really tired of beating my head against the wall and accomplishing very little. Those that want to claim victory due to me leaving so be it, congratulations. Getting tired of being harassed by the radical left in leadership but don't see any reason to continue. Won't be saying goodbye permanently but am going to take a break.
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have a nice vacation.
 
Dittohead not! said:
and you don't think the two are related?

Prices have been increasing faster than the wages of low income workers for some time now.
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No i do not.

This has been happening since the beginning of time. Rising prices don't matter to people who cannot afford to buy things to begin with.

Anything that increases inflation is likely to exacerbate the situation.
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I disagree.
 
rahl said:
I did prove it.
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No you did not! And while conman lacks the ability to refute your claim, i have already addressed it.
 
Conservative said:
Wanted to let you know that I have really enjoyed the discussions we have had in the past but I am going to take a vacation from Debate Politics for a while as I am really tired of beating my head against the wall and accomplishing very little. Those that want to claim victory due to me leaving so be it, congratulations. Getting tired of being harassed by the radical left in leadership but don't see any reason to continue. Won't be saying goodbye permanently but am going to take a break.
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I gave up trying to accomplish anything. Its just entertainment.
 
Kushinator said:
No you did not! And while conman lacks the ability to refute your claim, i have already addressed it.
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I quite demonstrably proved it. I gave you the deficit for 2016, and the deficit for 2020. It doubled under trump. This is objective fact.
 
rahl said:
I quite demonstrably proved it. I gave you the deficit for 2016, and the deficit for 2020. It doubled under trump. This is objective fact.
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But HE didnt double it. A minority of the increase in deficit is due to him signing spending bills (which of course congress wrote). Most of it is out of control mandatory spending and interest on the preexisting debt. This is objective fact. Congress controls the budget. The President spends the money (well, 20% of it), he doesnt authorize it.
 
jonny5 said:
But HE didnt double it.
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of course he did. He signed every budget that came to his desk.
A minority of the increase in deficit is due to him signing spending bills (which of course congress wrote). Most of it is out of control mandatory spending and interest on the preexisting debt. This is objective fact. Congress controls the budget. The President spends the money (well, 20% of it), he doesnt authorize it.
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I suggest taking a basic civics course. No bill, whether budget or any other, can become law unless signed by the president, absent a veto proof majority. None of the budgets presented to Trump had a veto proof majority. He had the final say for each one. Once signed, he owns it. So, Trump has doubled the deficit. This is objective fact. The deficit was declining under Obama, and then Trump doubled it.
 
rahl said:
of course he did. He signed every budget that came to his desk.

I suggest taking a basic civics course. No bill, whether budget or any other, can become law unless signed by the president, absent a veto proof majority. None of the budgets presented to Trump had a veto proof majority. He had the final say for each one. Once signed, he owns it. So, Trump has doubled the deficit. This is objective fact. The deficit was declining under Obama, and then Trump doubled it.
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Apparently they dont teach govt finances in civics class. Zero budgets came to his desk. Budgets are not laws.
Furthermore, the deficit wasnt declining under Obama. It went up the last two years after they removed the budget caps. Clearly youre just making statements without doing any research.


Deficit
2015 -442.0
2016 -584.7
2017 -665.4
 
jonny5 said:
Apparently they dont teach govt finances in civics class. Zero budgets came to his desk. Budgets are not laws.
Furthermore, the deficit wasnt declining under Obama. It went up the last two years after they removed the budget caps. Clearly youre just making statements without doing any research.


Deficit
2015 -442.0
2016 -584.7
2017 -665.4
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That was because republicans took over the senate.
 
jonny5 said:
Apparently they dont teach govt finances in civics class. Zero budgets came to his desk. Budgets are not laws.
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if you don't understand that yes, budget bills are in fact laws passed by congress, and have to be signed by the president, you have no business discussing politics.
Furthermore, the deficit wasnt declining under Obama. It went up the last two years after they removed the budget caps. Clearly youre just making statements without doing any research.


Deficit
2015 -442.0
2016 -584.7
2017 -665.4
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The deficit went down under obama. by half. this is reality. Trump doubled the deficit in under 4 years. this is reality.
 
jonny5 said:
And also, trillions in wealth, hundreds of millions of jobs. Technology, innovation that enables even our poor to live in relative luxury. Not to mention the ability for those not poor to take care of those who are (500bn in charity), as well as be the most charitable towards the rest of the world.
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– 162 countries with predominantly poor and impoverished populations
- 800 million hungry people
– 40 million people in slavery
- 192 million unemployed
– more than 30 wars waged in the interests of exploiters.

This is the basis by which the "correct capitalism of civilized countries" is ensured.
 
Kushinator said:
No i do not.

This has been happening since the beginning of time. Rising prices don't matter to people who cannot afford to buy things to begin with.



I disagree.
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You can disagree all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the $1.25 that was the minimum during the Kennedy Administration will buy a lot more than the $7.25 that is the minimum now.

And that minimum wage was for teens just starting their first job. I made a whole $1.75 at the age of 17.
 
Dittohead not! said:
You can disagree all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the $1.25 that was the minimum during the Kennedy Administration will buy a lot more than the $7.25 that is the minimum now.

And that minimum wage was for teens just starting their first job. I made a whole $1.75 at the age of 17.
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here is a dollar cal. to bring dollars from the past up to current dollars

$1 in 1962 → 2020 | Inflation Calculator

a dollar from 1962 when I started working ( first job shoveling Horse S--- at 50 cents an hour and a large estate ) 1 dollar in 1962 is equal to 8.49 in 2020 dollars
Gas was 31 cents a gal.( there was a " gas war " back about then when it went down to 17 cents a gal
Just hope that helps
Have a nice afternoon
 
Dittohead not! said:
You can disagree all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the $1.25 that was the minimum during the Kennedy Administration will buy a lot more than the $7.25 that is the minimum now.
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Here is the minimum wage chart adjusted for inflation in 2009 dollars for California and the U.S.:

fredgraph.png


And that minimum wage was for teens just starting their first job. I made a whole $1.75 at the age of 17.
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Most people do not earn the minimum wage. As of 2017, 542k wage earners earned $7.25 / hr. There isn't any rational reason not to tie the minimum wage to the core CPI, at a level that would be equal on a constant-dollar basis with the MW in 1968.

Again, your sentiment regarding inflation is entirely off-base:

Dittohead not! said:
It means that, when the government creates dollars out of thin air, which is what has been happening, the value of those dollars goes down.
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This exchange has gone from your misinterpretation of inflation (above) to an assault on a straw man, i.e. the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation on a federal basis.
 
Tbird19482 said:
here is a dollar cal. to bring dollars from the past up to current dollars

$1 in 1962 → 2020 | Inflation Calculator

a dollar from 1962 when I started working ( first job shoveling Horse S--- at 50 cents an hour and a large estate ) 1 dollar in 1962 is equal to 8.49 in 2020 dollars
Gas was 31 cents a gal.( there was a " gas war " back about then when it went down to 17 cents a gal
Just hope that helps
Have a nice afternoon
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Why were you working for below minimum wage? It was $1.25 in 1962. Someone must have seen you coming.
 
Kushinator said:
Here is the minimum wage chart adjusted for inflation in 2009 dollars for California and the U.S.:

fredgraph.png




Most people do not earn the minimum wage. As of 2017, 542k wage earners earned $7.25 / hr. There isn't any rational reason not to tie the minimum wage to the core CPI, at a level that would be equal on a constant-dollar basis with the MW in 1968.

Again, your sentiment regarding inflation is entirely off-base:



This exchange has gone from your misinterpretation of inflation (above) to an assault on a straw man, i.e. the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation on a federal basis.
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Straw man?
I thought you were arguing against my statement that lower wage earners get hit the hardest by inflation. High wage earners tend to keep up with inflation and then some.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Why were you working for below minimum wage? It was $1.25 in 1962. Someone must have seen you coming.
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well working on an estate without working papers a few days a week , right across the road from where I lived and it had a lot of bennies
where I lived we had the multi-millionaires on one side of the road and we poor people on the other
worked for some of the biggest names in the country , I am sure you may have some of what they made in your house right now, most people do
it was a few bucks and was a lot of fun
Have a nice day
 
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