Tax Choice

MrWonka said:

People hate taxes. I think a large part of the reason is that everyone has something they don't want their tax dollars to pay for. For right wing **** heads who hate poor people, minorities and women the idea that any of the money they spend might go to help them is infuriating. For decent liberal human beings we'd rather not see our tax dollars used to murder people overseas or lock up minorities.

The thing is each of OUR portion of the money spent by the Nation is a minuscule and insignificant portion of the whole. If you hate abortion you can just tell yourself that your tax dollars were the portion that went to the military. If you hate war you can tell yourself that your tax dollars were used for education or whatever.

In fact, I'd take it a step further. What do you think would happen if the tax payers could have more direct choice when determining the budget? What if every year when you did your taxes there was a form you could fill out that would let you decided what departments your tax dollars went towards? So for example you would have a bunch of choices like:

General Military
Boarder Security
Police/FBI
Public Education
Higher Education
Social Security
Veteran Health Care
Elderly Health Care
General Health care
Welfare
Food Stamps
Green Energy
General Energy
Infrastructure
Environmental Protection
General Scientific Advancement
Medical Research
Space Exploration
...
And then some kind of General Fund that would be entirely up to the discretion of Congress.

Each Tax payer would be able to put a % of their tax dollars next to each section of the list depending on how they wanted their tax dollars spent. Obviously we couldn't get too detailed, and we would probably need to have at least 10-20% go to the General Fund in case **** gets totally out of wack, but by and large you'd be able to choose what you wanted your dollars to go towards and our collective decisions would determine the budgets for each of these departments. Congress would decide more specifically what exactly the military fund for example would be used to pay for, but it would be required that we dedicate that amount to the military in some form.

I would argue that in the end the resulting budget wouldn't look significantly different than the one we currently have, but I think a lot of people would hate paying taxes a lot less if they could convince themselves that their money was used for the thing they wanted to.

If I'm right this is essentially what already happens it just doesn't FEEL that way to most people. By implementing something like this I think it would eliminate much of the fighting and frustration. People would be able to say with confidence that none of their money went to military or Abortion even though the government spent money on those things they tell themselves that the money wasn't their own.

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Praxas said:

There would be no way to effectively budget because one year your budget could be $50million and the next year $0. That is not an effective way to budget.

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Jetboogieman said:

The vast majority of Americans don't have the ability, the time or the mental capacity to understand every program and department in the Federal Government and wouldn't even begin to understand how each of these programs and departments actually benefits them.

You'd single handedly tear apart the federal government as Federal Agencies would be forced to advertise in order to get money for programs.

Imagine the idea of having to spend federal dollars informing people that they need to give money in a certain direction in order to have clean water, early detection warnings for tornados or hurricanes...

This whole idea is one of the most idiotic things ever thought of. You can barely trust voters to make responsible choices in who they vote for.

Churchill once said the greatest argument against democracy is 5 minutes with the average voter.

I wouldn't want your average joe deciding what gets funded and what doesn't, much as I distrust politicians.

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Jetboogieman said:

There’s a dude who came to and fro from the forum for years and years and years who made a similar idea in a different way his big thing, like he took an econo 101 course, found out about this idea and dropped out and started spamming forums non stop about it.

This is what I had to say back then...

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Jetboogieman said:

This is what I had to say back then...

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MrWonka said:

People hate taxes. I think a large part of the reason is that everyone has something they don't want their tax dollars to pay for. For right wing **** heads who hate poor people, minorities and women the idea that any of the money they spend might go to help them is infuriating. For decent liberal human beings we'd rather not see our tax dollars used to murder people overseas or lock up minorities.

The thing is each of OUR portion of the money spent by the Nation is a minuscule and insignificant portion of the whole. If you hate abortion you can just tell yourself that your tax dollars were the portion that went to the military. If you hate war you can tell yourself that your tax dollars were used for education or whatever.

In fact, I'd take it a step further. What do you think would happen if the tax payers could have more direct choice when determining the budget? What if every year when you did your taxes there was a form you could fill out that would let you decided what departments your tax dollars went towards? So for example you would have a bunch of choices like:

General Military
Boarder Security
Police/FBI
Public Education
Higher Education
Social Security
Veteran Health Care
Elderly Health Care
General Health care
Welfare
Food Stamps
Green Energy
General Energy
Infrastructure
Environmental Protection
General Scientific Advancement
Medical Research
Space Exploration
...
And then some kind of General Fund that would be entirely up to the discretion of Congress.

Each Tax payer would be able to put a % of their tax dollars next to each section of the list depending on how they wanted their tax dollars spent. Obviously we couldn't get too detailed, and we would probably need to have at least 10-20% go to the General Fund in case **** gets totally out of wack, but by and large you'd be able to choose what you wanted your dollars to go towards and our collective decisions would determine the budgets for each of these departments. Congress would decide more specifically what exactly the military fund for example would be used to pay for, but it would be required that we dedicate that amount to the military in some form.

I would argue that in the end the resulting budget wouldn't look significantly different than the one we currently have, but I think a lot of people would hate paying taxes a lot less if they could convince themselves that their money was used for the thing they wanted to.

If I'm right this is essentially what already happens it just doesn't FEEL that way to most people. By implementing something like this I think it would eliminate much of the fighting and frustration. People would be able to say with confidence that none of their money went to military or Abortion even though the government spent money on those things they tell themselves that the money wasn't their own.

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Felis Leo said:

At least with legislators, we can hold them responsible for their funding decisions by voting them out of office when they displease us. We cannot hold the voters responsible for their decisions which can lead to tearing apart our nation because they do not have to compromise or think through their vote. The voter will never be held to account for their vote (nor should they).

But this is one the main reasons I am against voter referenda and initiatives.

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MrWonka said:

People hate taxes. I think a large part of the reason is that everyone has something they don't want their tax dollars to pay for. For right wing **** heads who hate poor people, minorities and women the idea that any of the money they spend might go to help them is infuriating. For decent liberal human beings we'd rather not see our tax dollars used to murder people overseas or lock up minorities.

The thing is each of OUR portion of the money spent by the Nation is a minuscule and insignificant portion of the whole. If you hate abortion you can just tell yourself that your tax dollars were the portion that went to the military. If you hate war you can tell yourself that your tax dollars were used for education or whatever.

In fact, I'd take it a step further. What do you think would happen if the tax payers could have more direct choice when determining the budget? What if every year when you did your taxes there was a form you could fill out that would let you decided what departments your tax dollars went towards? So for example you would have a bunch of choices like:

General Military
Boarder Security
Police/FBI
Public Education
Higher Education
Social Security
Veteran Health Care
Elderly Health Care
General Health care
Welfare
Food Stamps
Green Energy
General Energy
Infrastructure
Environmental Protection
General Scientific Advancement
Medical Research
Space Exploration
...
And then some kind of General Fund that would be entirely up to the discretion of Congress.

Each Tax payer would be able to put a % of their tax dollars next to each section of the list depending on how they wanted their tax dollars spent. Obviously we couldn't get too detailed, and we would probably need to have at least 10-20% go to the General Fund in case **** gets totally out of wack, but by and large you'd be able to choose what you wanted your dollars to go towards and our collective decisions would determine the budgets for each of these departments. Congress would decide more specifically what exactly the military fund for example would be used to pay for, but it would be required that we dedicate that amount to the military in some form.

I would argue that in the end the resulting budget wouldn't look significantly different than the one we currently have, but I think a lot of people would hate paying taxes a lot less if they could convince themselves that their money was used for the thing they wanted to.

If I'm right this is essentially what already happens it just doesn't FEEL that way to most people. By implementing something like this I think it would eliminate much of the fighting and frustration. People would be able to say with confidence that none of their money went to military or Abortion even though the government spent money on those things they tell themselves that the money wasn't their own.

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Chomsky said:

Won't work. The taxpayer funds will go where required. The taxpayer distribution choices will never coincide accurately with the actual budget.

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Drawdown said:

You forgot a category for "Economic Stimulus---Keep it yourself and spend locally"

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MrWonka said:

People hate taxes. I think a large part of the reason is that everyone has something they don't want their tax dollars to pay for. For right wing **** heads who hate poor people, minorities and women the idea that any of the money they spend might go to help them is infuriating. For decent liberal human beings we'd rather not see our tax dollars used to murder people overseas or lock up minorities.

The thing is each of OUR portion of the money spent by the Nation is a minuscule and insignificant portion of the whole. If you hate abortion you can just tell yourself that your tax dollars were the portion that went to the military. If you hate war you can tell yourself that your tax dollars were used for education or whatever.

In fact, I'd take it a step further. What do you think would happen if the tax payers could have more direct choice when determining the budget? What if every year when you did your taxes there was a form you could fill out that would let you decided what departments your tax dollars went towards? So for example you would have a bunch of choices like:

General Military
Boarder Security
Police/FBI
Public Education
Higher Education
Social Security
Veteran Health Care
Elderly Health Care
General Health care
Welfare
Food Stamps
Green Energy
General Energy
Infrastructure
Environmental Protection
General Scientific Advancement
Medical Research
Space Exploration
...
And then some kind of General Fund that would be entirely up to the discretion of Congress.

Each Tax payer would be able to put a % of their tax dollars next to each section of the list depending on how they wanted their tax dollars spent. Obviously we couldn't get too detailed, and we would probably need to have at least 10-20% go to the General Fund in case **** gets totally out of wack, but by and large you'd be able to choose what you wanted your dollars to go towards and our collective decisions would determine the budgets for each of these departments. Congress would decide more specifically what exactly the military fund for example would be used to pay for, but it would be required that we dedicate that amount to the military in some form.

I would argue that in the end the resulting budget wouldn't look significantly different than the one we currently have, but I think a lot of people would hate paying taxes a lot less if they could convince themselves that their money was used for the thing they wanted to.

If I'm right this is essentially what already happens it just doesn't FEEL that way to most people. By implementing something like this I think it would eliminate much of the fighting and frustration. People would be able to say with confidence that none of their money went to military or Abortion even though the government spent money on those things they tell themselves that the money wasn't their own.

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MrWonka said:

I think that's mostly silly. It's possible that some advertising might be required by federal department, but there already is a **** load of money spend on lobbying. The only difference is that the lobbyists would be spending the money on T.V. commercials rather than stuffing it into the pocket of a politician. I think the commercials would be less successful than the straight lobbying we have now.

Secondly, Congress would have the ability to change the list how they see fit, but we're looking at a relatively small number of simple choices here. These would be very general departments. I see no reason the average American couldn't handle this, and while some individuals would be stupid when you pulled them all together an average would work out just fine.

It remind me of a couple polls I saw a few years back. The first one asked people whether the budget should be bigger or smaller. The public almost universally choose smaller. Republicans used this to argue for slashing the budget. But another poll of the same voters asked them more specifically about each itemized area the government spends it's money on and asked whether each department should get more or less. Across the board the majority said we should be spending more on each thing the government does.

When you wrap it up into a big pot and say the government is spending money people hate it, but when you itemize the list of things the government is spending money on they all want more of it. That indicates to me that it's more of just a mental problem of looking at taxes and spending the wrong way and if you changed the perception it would make tax payers a lot happier.

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MrWonka said:

I am not suggesting we vote on every little policy. I'm not advocating for Direct Democracy here. Certainly there are issues with that. Congress would still decided the tax brackets and rates. They would still decided the departments the government has, and they would still have some type of general discretionary fund left over that could be used to smooth over any glaring errors that need addressing.

As far as holding the voters accountable it's kind of silly. Whether the voters elect someone to make these choices or they make them largely themselves the choices likely wouldn't end up changing that much. Districts that were very heavily Republican would get most of their money spend on the Military. The same as what is happening now. Districts that are very liberal would have more of their money going towards health care, education and science. The same as now.

The difference is that it's a lot easier for a lobbyist to get control over their individual representative and make him do things his voters wouldn't want than it is to get control over the masses. A million dollars into a Senators pocket can have significant sway in how they vote, but a Million dollar Marketing campaign isn't necessarily going to change a ton of voters minds.

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MrWonka said:

Another interesting aspect to this is in terms of how it would impact actual Tax Rates. Republicans in Congress might be less likely to try and shift tax burdens onto the poor if that meant the poor would have more say in how the money is spent. The converse is true of Democrats. They might be less in favor of tax increases on the rich if they knew the rich would get to decide how they spent it.

Right now Congress can too easily shift that tax burden onto the group they don't like in order to pay for things that help their own voters. This would make that next to impossible to accomplish.

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MrWonka said:

People hate taxes. I think a large part of the reason is that everyone has something they don't want their tax dollars to pay for. For right wing **** heads who hate poor people, minorities and women the idea that any of the money they spend might go to help them is infuriating. For decent liberal human beings we'd rather not see our tax dollars used to murder people overseas or lock up minorities.

The thing is each of OUR portion of the money spent by the Nation is a minuscule and insignificant portion of the whole. If you hate abortion you can just tell yourself that your tax dollars were the portion that went to the military. If you hate war you can tell yourself that your tax dollars were used for education or whatever.

In fact, I'd take it a step further. What do you think would happen if the tax payers could have more direct choice when determining the budget? What if every year when you did your taxes there was a form you could fill out that would let you decided what departments your tax dollars went towards? So for example you would have a bunch of choices like:

General Military
Boarder Security
Police/FBI
Public Education
Higher Education
Social Security
Veteran Health Care
Elderly Health Care
General Health care
Welfare
Food Stamps
Green Energy
General Energy
Infrastructure
Environmental Protection
General Scientific Advancement
Medical Research
Space Exploration
...
And then some kind of General Fund that would be entirely up to the discretion of Congress.

Each Tax payer would be able to put a % of their tax dollars next to each section of the list depending on how they wanted their tax dollars spent. Obviously we couldn't get too detailed, and we would probably need to have at least 10-20% go to the General Fund in case **** gets totally out of wack, but by and large you'd be able to choose what you wanted your dollars to go towards and our collective decisions would determine the budgets for each of these departments. Congress would decide more specifically what exactly the military fund for example would be used to pay for, but it would be required that we dedicate that amount to the military in some form.

I would argue that in the end the resulting budget wouldn't look significantly different than the one we currently have, but I think a lot of people would hate paying taxes a lot less if they could convince themselves that their money was used for the thing they wanted to.

If I'm right this is essentially what already happens it just doesn't FEEL that way to most people. By implementing something like this I think it would eliminate much of the fighting and frustration. People would be able to say with confidence that none of their money went to military or Abortion even though the government spent money on those things they tell themselves that the money wasn't their own.

Click to expand...