The Bernie Plan (to bankrupt the country)

Conservative · Jan 20, 2020

ataraxia said:
In the free market, no one would give you a meal at a restaurant or a car if you can’t pay for it. Why are you trying to get the poor hospital to hold the bag on healthcare? Do you know how difficult, risky, and expensive brain surgery is?

Are you telling us there is some fundamental difference between healthcare and those other commodities?

Why are you so envious of what others have and why are you ignoring Bernie Sander's very poor resume and history of becoming a multi Millionaire as a public servant?

Conservative · Jan 20, 2020

ataraxia said:
About Us - Texas Association of Community Health Plans

You really have a problem with states taking on their own responsibilities as all expenses associated with healthcare are paid for by state citizens. This seems to be a real problem for you and your support for that pie in the sky socialist Sanders who doesn't have a clue how to implement UHC in a country of 330 million Americans in 50 different states with different costs of living. You also like Sanders have no understanding of the word incentive as you buy what this public servant tells you without even considering consequences

Conservative · Jan 20, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
In many cases, government spending gives the better return. Universal healthcare would be cheaper and better, by any respectable research. It can be cheaper (and better) to simply provide homes for the homeless, as opposed to paying for the side effects of homelessness. And it's insanely expensive to incarcerate people in our system, and we incarcerate more people than almost any country on the planet.

Fiscal space is the amount that the government can deficit spend without hitting the limits of our resources and causing inflation. Government spending is good for business.

I think you have a real problem with other people suffering, in that you don't seem to be happy unless other people are unhappy. You might want to see a psychologist about that, too.

Only if you haven't been conscious for the past six years or so since I've been on this site. The federal government should be there to advance the welfare of the people, not just businesses. The Republican Party has completely abdicated the responsibility of governing to businesses, and the centrist Dems aren't much better. They have convinced suckers like you that whatever is good for business is good for people, too. That's why trump is able to put lobbyists and industry executives in charge of the environment and the parks without backlash - not a peep out of his sycophants, even when what he is doing is clearly not in anybody's best interests.

That is your opinion but you are unable to consider you would be and normally are wrong. Every European UHC country has found that healthcare costs are more than they ever expected them to be and are bankrupting the countries which doesn't seem to bother you

You are a true liberal socialist who buys what you are told and believes what a public servant who made his millions as a public servant tells you. No understanding of consequences and the demise of the private sector insurance programs because of mandated Medicare for all.

Promoting the General Welfare is the role of the gov't and Trump and the Republican Congress are doing that by allowing people to keep more of what they earn. You obviously ignore the selfish of the left that wants someone else to pay for their persona responsibility issues. That is a prescription for disaster. Not sure where you live but I live in the Greatest Country on the Face of the Earth that gives me the choice to succeed or even fail. I don't have a problem with that, YOU DO

Conservative · Jan 20, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
Wow - let's see....

Bernie never had a reality TV show.

never declared bankruptcy.

never had a failed casino.

never dropped out of college.

never got sued for fraud.

never lost $1 billion in a single year.

never was employed by his daddy.

never paid hush money to a porn star.

only married once.

never impeached.

You're right - Bernie has none of trump's qualifications to lead a country.

Ancient history, already debated and Trump won, you lost, Trump wasn't a public servant, never held public office and did actually fail AND succeed in the private sector. Bernie became a multi millionaire in the public sector, how do you do that? This guy is a joke, poorly qualified, a socialist from the small state of Vermont, and totally clueless when it comes to business, economics and the private sector, a lot like you

ataraxia · Jan 20, 2020

Conservative said:
Why are you so envious of what others have and why are you ignoring Bernie Sander's very poor resume and history of becoming a multi Millionaire as a public servant?

I’m actually part of the 1%. I just don’t want to live in a social Darwinist jungle of a society. It just has a way of never working out very well for anyone. I’m just not so blinded by shortsighted greed, selfishness, and bigotry as to not see it.

“ If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.”
- John F. Kennedy

Conservative · Jan 20, 2020

ataraxia said:
I’m actually part of the 1%. I just don’t want to live in a social Darwinist jungle of a society. It just has a way of never working out very well for anyone. I’m just not so blinded by shortsighted greed, selfishness, and bigotry as to not see it.

“ If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.”
- John F. Kennedy

So you are one of those rich liberal elites that like Sanders wants to destroy the economy that helped you get into that category? I WAS A JFK DEMOCRAT and he is turning over in his grave with what has become of the Democratic Party. Amazing how you consider an economy that has taken African American unemployment down to 5.9%, generated over a trillion dollars GDP growth is a problem. You apparently are judging everyone else based upon your own selfishness and guilt for being able to provide well for your family.

I remember JFK Well, "Ask NOT what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country" and JFK did more to promote the private sector than any of those Democratic clowns are doing now

bave · Jan 20, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
You have the right to whatever the law says you have a right to. Once written into law, benefits become rights.

That's simply not true. A right is something that is inherent and doesn't need to be codified in law. This is why we have the Bill of Rights, something which clearly enumerates that rights of individuals in the USoA.

JohnfrmClevelan said:
That's a mighty big and expansive claim, there. It also doesn't answer the question of who actually benefits, if any of it is even true. I have no interest in trading benefits for economic growth if that growth only benefits ownership, which has been the case for the past 40 years.

Please see economic data of the EU over the past 60 years. All of the above have been universally true. Again, this is precisely why places like France reversed all the bull****tery that you are looking for. Skin the rich? They leave. Protect the workers? Industry leaves. You are in a global competition, you can't just beat the crap out of business owners and producers and expect them to stay there and take it. Sorry, no gulags for you.

JohnfrmClevelan · Jan 20, 2020

bave said:
That's simply not true. A right is something that is inherent and doesn't need to be codified in law. This is why we have the Bill of Rights, something which clearly enumerates that rights of individuals in the USoA.

So, you're giving a perfect example of why I'm right, then saying I'm wrong? Why do you think they bothered to include those specific rights in the BILL of RIGHTS?

bave said:
Please see economic data of the EU over the past 60 years. All of the above have been universally true. Again, this is precisely why places like France reversed all the bull****tery that you are looking for. Skin the rich? They leave. Protect the workers? Industry leaves. You are in a global competition, you can't just beat the crap out of business owners and producers and expect them to stay there and take it. Sorry, no gulags for you.

People in Europe are doing just fine, they have simply chosen governments that serve the people before they serve businesses.

JohnfrmClevelan · Jan 20, 2020

Conservative said:
So you are one of those rich liberal elites that like Sanders wants to destroy the economy that helped you get into that category? I WAS A JFK DEMOCRAT and he is turning over in his grave with what has become of the Democratic Party. Amazing how you consider an economy that has taken African American unemployment down to 5.9%, generated over a trillion dollars GDP growth is a problem. You apparently are judging everyone else based upon your own selfishness and guilt for being able to provide well for your family.

I remember JFK Well, "Ask NOT what your country can do for you, Ask what you can do for your country" and JFK did more to promote the private sector than any of those Democratic clowns are doing now

JFK pushed for universal healthcare, too. Was your support for JFK before you suffered all of those strokes?

Drawdown · Jan 21, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
JFK pushed for universal healthcare, too. Was your support for JFK before you suffered all of those strokes?

JFK couldn't even get medicare passed. Even the AMA opposed its creation.

JohnfrmClevelan · Jan 21, 2020

Drawdown said:
JFK couldn't even get medicare passed. Even the AMA opposed its creation.

The point was that JFK was in favor of universal healthcare, like some kind of commie! And Conservative was a JFK guy. Before he had all of those strokes.

Of course the AMA opposed its creation, they make more money this way. That's kind of my point, when I say that government should serve the people and not just businesses - why does the AMA even have a voice in this debate? They don't vote. But they contribute to politicians, and politicians vote the way the AMA, and the insurance industry, and Big Pharma, want them to vote.

Drawdown · Jan 21, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
The point was that JFK was in favor of universal healthcare, like some kind of commie! And Conservative was a JFK guy. Before he had all of those strokes.

Of course the AMA opposed its creation, they make more money this way. That's kind of my point, when I say that government should serve the people and not just businesses - why does the AMA even have a voice in this debate? They don't vote. But they contribute to politicians, and politicians vote the way the AMA, and the insurance industry, and Big Pharma, want them to vote.

America is not going to have universal care and a big part of the reason is that people do not trust the democrats on this issue because that little tingle on the back of their neck is correct. Bernie and Liz "we will just tax the top 1%" is absolutely not a viable financing model. When you and Nancy and the DNC talk about "Big Pharma" and big insurance, you are really talking about screwing up a lot of people's retirement investments.

bave · Jan 21, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
So, you're giving a perfect example of why I'm right, then saying I'm wrong? Why do you think they bothered to include those specific rights in the BILL of RIGHTS?

People in Europe are doing just fine, they have simply chosen governments that serve the people before they serve businesses.

Where is the right to welfare programs in the constitution?

You are entitled to your opinion, but the economic facts for Europe are clear underperformance over decades. That underperformance has resulted in lower wage gains, lower job creation, lower disposable income, lower home/auto ownership rates etc.

ataraxia · Jan 21, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
The point was that JFK was in favor of universal healthcare, like some kind of commie! And Conservative was a JFK guy. Before he had all of those strokes.

Heck, forget Kennedy. Even Nixon was working on a universal healthcare plan.

Of course the AMA opposed its creation, they make more money this way. That's kind of my point, when I say that government should serve the people and not just businesses - why does the AMA even have a voice in this debate? They don't vote. But they contribute to politicians, and politicians vote the way the AMA, and the insurance industry, and Big Pharma, want them to vote.

What is funny is the doctors ended up doing better under Medicare! They would often not get paid for their services before that, or maybe they would get paid by been giving a live chicken for the three hour high-risk surgery they just did or something.

Conservative · Jan 21, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
JFK pushed for universal healthcare, too. Was your support for JFK before you suffered all of those strokes?

LOL, JFK supported Medicare and I don't recall him supporting UHC, where is that link, and even if he did, he supported the private sector and promoted tax cuts which stimulate the economy.

ataraxia · Jan 21, 2020

Conservative said:
LOL, JFK supported Medicare and I don't recall him supporting UHC, where is that link, and even if he did, he supported the private sector and promoted tax cuts which stimulate the economy.

Why is Medicare OK but Medicare-for-all communist tyranny?

Divine_Wind · Jan 21, 2020

ataraxia said:
Why is Medicare OK but Medicare-for-all communist tyranny?

Two things: #1 is cost; it doesn't help the system by bankrupting it. #2 It's one thing to help the infirm, elderly and minors but it's another to give healthy adults a "free" ride at the expense of others.

ttwtt78640 · Jan 21, 2020

ataraxia said:
Why is Medicare OK but Medicare-for-all communist tyranny?

For the same reason that SNAP (federal food subsidies for the poor) is OK, but SNAP for all (including a requirement that all grocery providers become public or non-profit) would be a bad idea. What most mean by M4A is a single-payer system much more like Medicaid for all (having no premiums, deductbles or co-pays), but with 100% federal government funding.

ataraxia · Jan 21, 2020

Rising Sun said:
Two things: #1 is cost; it doesn't help the system by bankrupting it. #2 It's one thing to help the infirm, elderly and minors but it's another to give healthy adults a "free" ride at the expense of others.

Like any insurance, if you don't have a large enough pool of healthy people, there is no way you are going to be able to help the elderly and infirm.

ataraxia · Jan 21, 2020

ttwtt78640 said:
For the same reason that SNAP (federal food subsidies for the poor) is OK, but SNAP for all (including a requirement that all grocery providers become public or non-profit) would be a bad idea. What most mean by M4A is a single-payer system much more like Medicaid for all (having no premiums, deductbles or co-pays), but with 100% federal government funding.

I see it more as a insurance plan for all. Copays, deductibles, etc... could be determined by income level, much like a progressive tax system.

Divine_Wind · Jan 21, 2020

ataraxia said:
Like any insurance, if you don't have a large enough pool of healthy people, there is no way you are going to be able to help the elderly and infirm.

True, but "medicare for all" reduces the pool of funds to help the elderly and infirm by spreading those funds across the entire population. What proof is there that the plan is fiscally sustainable? Both Bernie and AOC have misrepresented studies saying it works: The Cost of 'Medicare-for-All' - FactCheck.org

The High Cost of Warren and Sanders's Single-Payer Plan - The Atlantic
The Urban Institute, a center-left think tank highly respected among Democrats, is projecting that a plan similar to what Warren and Senator Bernie Sanders are pushing would require $34 trillion in additional federal spending over its first decade in operation. That’s more than the federal government’s total cost over the coming decade for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid combined, according to the most recent Congressional Budget Office projections.

ttwtt78640 · Jan 21, 2020

ataraxia said:
I see it more as a insurance plan for all. Copays, deductibles, etc... could be determined by income level, much like a progressive tax system.

All sorts of things "could be", but I am addressing the M4A legislation which has actually been written. What you are describing would simply be an expanded "means tested" benefit (subsidy?) and thus not a single-payer UHC system. Simply substituting taxes for premiums, deductibles and co-pays (as is currently done by Medicaid) is more like what most mean by M4A.

Conservative · Jan 21, 2020

ataraxia said:
Why is Medicare OK but Medicare-for-all communist tyranny?

Americans contributed to Medicare for their entire work career and are entitled to a benefit. I don't support Medicare but damn well am going to get some of my money back since being forced onto Medicare which still isn't free as I am paying the monthly premiums which are deducted from SS which again I was forced to contribute to for 35 years. Being a liberal apparently gives you the right to be ignorant of these programs

Dittohead not! · Jan 21, 2020

JohnfrmClevelan said:
The point was that JFK was in favor of universal healthcare, like some kind of commie! And Conservative was a JFK guy. Before he had all of those strokes.

Of course the AMA opposed its creation, they make more money this way. That's kind of my point, when I say that government should serve the people and not just businesses - why does the AMA even have a voice in this debate? They don't vote. But they contribute to politicians, and politicians vote the way the AMA, and the insurance industry, and Big Pharma, want them to vote.

I hadn't heard that JFK supported a UHC plan, but this pinko commie did:

We do need health care for all people,” (pinko Commie) said at a rally here this week. “What are we gonna do, let people die in the street?”

link to see who it really is

ataraxia · Jan 21, 2020

Conservative said:
Americans contributed to Medicare for their entire work career and are entitled to a benefit. I don't support Medicare but damn well am going to get some of my money back since being forced onto Medicare which still isn't free as I am paying the monthly premiums which are deducted from SS which again I was forced to contribute to for 35 years. Being a liberal apparently gives you the right to be ignorant of these programs

But would you say that Medicare has not been successful?

If the government today agreed to pay back everything these folks had paid into Meducare over the years, plus interest, how many Americans do you really think would want to get rid of it?

Medicare, Medicaid popularity high ahead of birthday

The Bernie Plan (to bankrupt the country)

Conservative

Conservative

Conservative

Conservative

ataraxia

Conservative

bave

JohnfrmClevelan

JohnfrmClevelan

Drawdown

JohnfrmClevelan

Drawdown

bave

ataraxia

Conservative

ataraxia

Divine_Wind

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

ataraxia

ataraxia

Divine_Wind

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong

Conservative

Dittohead not!

master political analyst

ataraxia