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The Bernie Plan (to bankrupt the country)

RabidAlpaca said:
Neither of you can point to one single example of what you want working as a healthcare system, anywhere, past or present. I can point to dozens and dozens examples of working UHC systems, many that rank higher than ours in every metric.



LOL, every other country pays less for their drugs because their governments force the companies to negotiate. America doesn't negotiate and gets ****ed over the table. This is the system you want, you want the pharmaceutical companies to be able to charge sick and desperate people any sum they want.

Hilarious that you admit America is being ****ed over but you blame other countries for getting to pay less instead of the pharmaceutical companies for making us pay more.
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What I have pointed out is that there are states in this country that have made Healthcare Mandatory and assist in implementation. You can always move there. I have also posted studies showing that the total cost of healthcare isn't being revealed in world statistics. You seem so unhappy in this country and refuse to even consider you would be wrong and their would be severe consequences for being wrong so why don't you move to one of those liberal utopias Ranking seems to resonate with you when it comes to health care but not on taxes that pay for those systems, why?

For some reason you hate your country because it doesn't provide for you your personal responsibility issues. Not sure I can help you there
 
Conservative said:
What I have pointed out is that there are states in this country that have made Healthcare Mandatory and assist in implementation. You can always move there. I have also posted studies showing that the total cost of healthcare isn't being revealed in world statistics. You seem so unhappy in this country and refuse to even consider you would be wrong and their would be severe consequences for being wrong so why don't you move to one of those liberal utopias Ranking seems to resonate with you when it comes to health care but not on taxes that pay for those systems, why?

For some reason you hate your country because it doesn't provide for you your personal responsibility issues. Not sure I can help you there
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Every healthcare system in the world is dramatically cheaper than ours, both UHC and otherwise. Without exception. You refuse to accept this fact and decide to fabricate lies because you have an agenda.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Every healthcare system in the world is dramatically cheaper than ours, both UHC and otherwise. Without exception. You refuse to accept this fact and decide to fabricate lies because you have an agenda.
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That is your opinion because you buy what you are being told and have no understanding of the hidden costs in those systems funded by other taxes. Name for me another country with 330 million citizens and 50 different costs of living? Stop buying what you are being told and think about what it would take to even try to run a system for 50 states. Bernie Sanders is a cult maker, a multi millionaire career politicians who has provided no meaningful legislation for this country and who is a typical liberal hypocrite

Medicare for All Isn't Free: The Hidden Costs of Universal Healthcare | The Emory Wheel

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1292

Like most liberal programs it is all about feelings and spending in the name of compassion.
 
Ahlevah said:
Honestly, I don't know what a house call cost back in the '60s when I grew up, and even if I did I don't think I could compare the now with the then, even adjusting for inflation, because the circumstances were so much different. We didn't have an army of tort lawyers looking for a payday, a medical education that cost a king's ransom, and the government mandates that exist today, so the economics of it weren't the same. That's why it's generally not done, although I understand some doctors are going back to it, just as they are refusing insurance and just performing a service for a fee.
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Well, I will start with the fact that it generally costs you $200 just to get a plumber to show up. A physician would have to be at least $400-500. Who is going to pay that?

Yes, in concierge medicine they do that, which is precisely what you would see in this country with a M4A type plan. You would have one crappy system for people on the M4A program and another program for people who can pay for quality and service. That should go over well.

RabidAlpaca said:
Neither of you can point to one single example of what you want working as a healthcare system, anywhere, past or present. I can point to dozens and dozens examples of working UHC systems, many that rank higher than ours in every metric.

LOL, every other country pays less for their drugs because their governments force the companies to negotiate. America doesn't negotiate and gets ****ed over the table. This is the system you want, you want the pharmaceutical companies to be able to charge sick and desperate people any sum they want.

Hilarious that you admit America is being ****ed over but you blame other countries for getting to pay less instead of the pharmaceutical companies for making us pay more.
Click to expand...

Well, I would start by pointing out that you have to adjust for the healthcare population. The US obesity rate is worse than everywhere else, largely because of non-healthcare related issues and obesity is a massive driver of spending.

As to pharma one of the big issues is that without our spend on medications global R&D grinds down pretty hard. A pharma company makes no profit margins selling outside the US and they aren't going to sink billions into R&D with no return. The IRR at a pharma company is roughly in line with a utility company.

RabidAlpaca said:
Every healthcare system in the world is dramatically cheaper than ours, both UHC and otherwise. Without exception. You refuse to accept this fact and decide to fabricate lies because you have an agenda.
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That's just not true.
 
Conservative said:
That is your opinion because you buy what you are being told and have no understanding of the hidden costs in those systems funded by other taxes. Name for me another country with 330 million citizens and 50 different costs of living? Stop buying what you are being told and think about what it would take to even try to run a system for 50 states. Bernie Sanders is a cult maker, a multi millionaire career politicians who has provided no meaningful legislation for this country and who is a typical liberal hypocrite
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We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about facts. You can't point to ONE single country in the world that pays anywhere near what we do. None, nada, zilch. There are no secret taxes that magically make everyone else's healthcare more expensive than ours, they're objectively cheaper.

Why are you so dedicated to denying that our healthcare is too expensive?

bave said:
Well, I would start by pointing out that you have to adjust for the healthcare population. The US obesity rate is worse than everywhere else, largely because of non-healthcare related issues and obesity is a massive driver of spending.

As to pharma one of the big issues is that without our spend on medications global R&D grinds down pretty hard. A pharma company makes no profit margins selling outside the US and they aren't going to sink billions into R&D with no return. The IRR at a pharma company is roughly in line with a utility company.
That's just not true.
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This is such a categorically stupid lie that it's not even worth addressing. Pharma companies make tons of money outside of the US. No profit margin? No return? Jesus the lies you come up with.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
We're not talking about opinions, we're talking about facts. You can't point to ONE single country in the world that pays anywhere near what we done. None, nada, zilch. There are no secret taxes that magically make everyone else's healthcare more expensive than ours, they're objectively cheaper.

Why are you so dedicated to denying that our healthcare is too expensive?



This is such a categorically stupid lie that it's not even worth addressing. Pharma companies make tons of money outside of the US. No profit margin? No return? Jesus the lies you come up with.
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That is your opinion because you buy what you are being told and have no understanding of the hidden costs in those systems funded by other taxes. Name for me another country with 330 million citizens and 50 different costs of living? Stop buying what you are being told and think about what it would take to even try to run a system for 50 states. Bernie Sanders is a cult maker, a multi millionaire career politicians who has provided no meaningful legislation for this country and who is a typical liberal hypocrite

Medicare for All Isn't Free: The Hidden Costs of Universal Healthcare | The Emory Wheel

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1292

Like most liberal programs it is all about feelings and spending in the name of compassion.
 
Conservative said:
That is your opinion because you buy what you are being told and have no understanding of the hidden costs in those systems funded by other taxes. Name for me another country with 330 million citizens and 50 different costs of living? Stop buying what you are being told and think about what it would take to even try to run a system for 50 states. Bernie Sanders is a cult maker, a multi millionaire career politicians who has provided no meaningful legislation for this country and who is a typical liberal hypocrite

Medicare for All Isn't Free: The Hidden Costs of Universal Healthcare | The Emory Wheel

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1292

Like most liberal programs it is all about feelings and spending in the name of compassion.
Click to expand...

We're still not in the opinion zone, we're in the fact zone. You can't point to one country that pays more than we do. Go ahead, do it, should be easy right since US healthcare is comparatively so cheap as you claim? How ridiculous to you have to feel trying to argue we've got the cheapest healthcare? Objective lies.
 
RabidAlpaca said:
We're still not in the opinion zone, we're in the fact zone. You can't point to one country that pays more than we do. Go ahead, do it, should be easy right since US healthcare is comparatively so cheap as you claim? How ridiculous to you have to feel trying to argue we've got the cheapest healthcare? Objective lies.
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You want real facts? Don't use WHO statistics where the comparison is between apples and oranges. You cannot seem to grasp the reality that there is not such thing as a Gov't funded ANYTHING, it is all taxpayer funded.

You are the one who cannot tell us exactly what funds other country UHC and simply buy opinions you want to believe. If you are so concerned about costs then why aren't you really addressing the hidden costs and hidden taxes that fund those programs. There is no such thing as a free lunch except in the liberal world in which you seem to reside.

Why are those articles lies, because you don't want to believe them? Ever been to any of those so called great UHC countries and tried to get even basic medical care? Long wait times, high taxes, greater gov't control and spending of taxpayer dollars.

You want to believe in utopia, it doesn't exist
 
Conservative said:
Google it and find out, Mass for one
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OK, I'll do your homework for you, just this once:

The United States does not provide Universal Health Care. Massachusetts, since 2006, has required most residents to obtain health coverage and most employers to provide coverage to their employees or face tax consequences. The state does provide help to those who fall below the poverty level via medicaid and medicare.
Error 404 - Quora › Does-Massachusetts-have-universal-healthcare
Does Massachusetts have universal healthcare? - Quora
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Sounds a lot like the ACA: Require employers to provide insurance, individual mandate. If this is universal health care, the the US has it too since Trump failed (thankfully) to repeal the ACA without replacing it with something better.
 
Conservative said:
For someone who does nothing but run from debates never answering direct questions you don't have a lot of credibility, Have a good night
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LOL
I wasn't the one who ran away it was YOU.
Remember it was YOU who said he would never answer my posts , I guess you don't like hearing the truth and are the one that seldom back up what you post
Have a nice day
 
ecofarm said:
Most people that run from debates and never answer direct questions have a lot of credibility?
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YOU are right, problem is I didn't run Conservative did, and he has very little credibility.
have a nice day
 
Tbird19482 said:
YOU are right, problem is I didn't run Conservative did, and he has very little credibility.
have a nice day
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His statement was basically, "for someone that's very bad you sure don't have a lot of good." It didn't make sense. It was a slurred, gibberish post.
 
Conservative said:
What I have pointed out is that there are states in this country that have made Healthcare Mandatory and assist in implementation. You can always move there. I have also posted studies showing that the total cost of healthcare isn't being revealed in world statistics. You seem so unhappy in this country and refuse to even consider you would be wrong and their would be severe consequences for being wrong so why don't you move to one of those liberal utopias Ranking seems to resonate with you when it comes to health care but not on taxes that pay for those systems, why?

For some reason you hate your country because it doesn't provide for you your personal responsibility issues. Not sure I can help you there
Click to expand...

YOu don't have to move to a different state in order to buy health insurance, you just have to have a lot of income.

There is no state in the union that has a universal health care system such as exists in any one of the modern nations today. What exists in Massachusetts is no different from what Obamacare was before it was attacked by Trump and his minions. In fact, the only thing said minions have been able to accomplish is to reduce the individual mandate tax to zero. Now, they're working on eliminating pre existing conditions, but they haven't been able to do that yet.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Do the math: France pays 7% of its GDP for health care. We pay 18% of ours. Add in another 1% of GDP for public financing of medical school, and the difference is 10% of GDP.

The GDP of the United States is around 20 trillion, give or take. 10% of that is 2 trillion.

So, if we saved 10% for 10 years, which is what those scary numbers are based on, not on annual costs, that would be 20 trillion in savings. Plus, we'd not have to import doctors, as we'd be training enough of our own. That should be enough to cover a reasonable tuition for any student who wants to go, is capable, and can't pay the soaring cost of college.
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There's another thread in the general forum right now touting some sort of meta-analysis of single-payer projections/studies that found the median net savings estimate across all those studies was about 3.5%. Which, if achieved, would take health care from the current 17.8% of GDP down to about 17.2% of GDP (assuming those lost jobs and economic activity are immediately picked up by other sectors of the economy).

So 10% of GDP may be a tad optimistic.
 
Greenbeard said:
There's another thread in the general forum right now touting some sort of meta-analysis of single-payer projections/studies that found the median net savings estimate across all those studies was about 3.5%. Which, if achieved, would take health care from the current 17.8% of GDP down to about 17.2% of GDP (assuming those lost jobs and economic activity are immediately picked up by other sectors of the economy).

So 10% of GDP may be a tad optimistic.
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Just think of the fewer bimbos they could afford..!!
 
Does not really matter, it is unlikely that Sanders will become President and even if by some chance he does very little of this costly agenda will become so.

However, there is a discussion to have on what other nations contend with when it comes to healthcare and because those conditions are much different nation to nation the comparison to the US model now or what it could be is dubious.

Universal Healthcare would not look the same nor operate the same given all the influencers into how things evolved to how they are now, and "Medicare for All" has already become a political entrapment means just among this lot of hopefuls for 2020.

The debate on what his nation needs is one thing, the reality is the political capital it would take to force a large step many people and business in this nation are not ready for.

And that is why ultimately we can have a valid, without all the exaggerations ideally, on what these costs will do to our fiscal position.

Trumps actions have caused enough consequence, without the likely mess of pie in the sky far left liberal mathematics that very well may inflate the problem before there is any chance for conditions to improve.

Replacing one mess with another still leaves us with a mess.
 
Moonglow said:
So in other words, Bernie wants to bankrupt the nation while providing for the taxpayers while the Republicans want to bankrupt the nation while providing for the wealthy only....
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I always find statements such as this illuminating.

Taxing someone less isn't giving them anything, it is taking less.
Giving someone more, particularly more than they contribute, is truly giving/welfare/subsidization etc.
 
bave said:
I always find statements such as this illuminating.

Taxing someone less isn't giving them anything, it is taking less.
Giving someone more, particularly more than they contribute, is truly giving/welfare/subsidization etc.
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I am always amazed at the low informed repubs that have zero ideas all the freebies the wealthy get from the US govt.
 
Moonglow said:
I am always amazed at the low informed repubs that have zero ideas all the freebies the wealthy get from the US govt.
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Lay them out for me then....

Statistics from the IRS seem to show that the wealthy are paying the bulk of federal income taxes in this country, disproportionate to their income even.

I will wait.
 
bave said:
Lay them out for me then....

Statistics from the IRS seem to show that the wealthy are paying the bulk of federal income taxes in this country, disproportionate to their income even.

I will wait.
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I should hope the wealthy are paying the largest share of taxes since they control the largest share of wealth...And don't forget to write off that dancing horse you are entering into the Olympics.
 
Moonglow said:
I should hope the wealthy are paying the largest share of taxes since they control the largest share of wealth...And don't forget to write off that dancing horse you are entering into the Olympics.
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So, you have no examples then?

We don't tax wealth, we tax income.
 
Dittohead not! said:
OK, I'll do your homework for you, just this once:



Sounds a lot like the ACA: Require employers to provide insurance, individual mandate. If this is universal health care, the the US has it too since Trump failed (thankfully) to repeal the ACA without replacing it with something better.
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Sounds a lot like the state took action thus no federal action necessary. where did you develop the idea and belief that someone else was required to take care of your personal responsibility issues and why do you believe this is a federal taxpayer responsibility? You certainly have become a liberal. You do know that there is no such thing as federally funded, don't you? It is TAXPAYER FUNDED!! IMO, it is a state and local responsibility not a federal one due to the size of this country
 
Tbird19482 said:
LOL
I wasn't the one who ran away it was YOU.
Remember it was YOU who said he would never answer my posts , I guess you don't like hearing the truth and are the one that seldom back up what you post
Have a nice day
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I learned a long time ago to stop playing football without a helmet and when I run into partisan cult followers like you it is a waste of time. No one is ever going to change your mind as you have no understanding of the Constitution, personal responsibility, civics or even basic economics which promote supply and demand. you have a nice day!!
 
ecofarm said:
His statement was basically, "for someone that's very bad you sure don't have a lot of good." It didn't make sense. It was a slurred, gibberish post.
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Not sure where you got that statement from but the reality is that you never post anything to support your point of view other than personal opinions. You people who support Bernie are the same people who always focus and buy rhetoric never results, resume, or qualifications. What doesn't make any sense is how anyone living in this country could support a multimillionaire public servant who has no experience in the private sector and no understanding of even basic economics. You get exactly what you deserve with someone like Bernie but it is someone that most in this country don't
 
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