• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Bernie Plan (to bankrupt the country)

Dittohead not! said:
Do the math: France pays 7% of its GDP for health care. We pay 18% of ours. Add in another 1% of GDP for public financing of medical school, and the difference is 10% of GDP.
Click to expand...

Macron did the math, and it didn't add up. France has a bloated public sector (they already have the Bernie Employment Plan) and, unlike ours, its economy is stagnant. In short, France sucks, and, whatever you do, if you end up with late-stage cancer, DON'T GO TO FRANCE!

ALL CANCERS DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

French strikers angry about pension reform cut power to homes, companies - Reuters
 
Conservative said:
You have certainly been indoctrinated well into believing the left wing spin on the economy and health care. It is interesting how far too many have no understanding that by far the largest percentage of GDP growth in Europe is do to gov't spending which comes from what?? TAXES!!!! It is simple math when you ignore the taxes that actually fund UHC and ignore the true costs of UHC in terms of not only wait time but quality. No incentive to go to medical school and no incentive for drug companies to invest billions in research, the true dumbing down of the world and this country that has done so well. Now the rest of the story

3 Economic Challenges for France in 2019

Medicare for All Isn't Free: The Hidden Costs of Universal Healthcare | The Emory Wheel

https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=1292
Click to expand...

Cost is cost whether the money is paid in taxes or in insurance premiums, copays, minimum payments, or whatever. I'd rather pay less and get more, but you can't support that as you'd lose your conservative card.
 
Ahlevah said:
Macron did the math, and it didn't add up. France has a bloated public sector (they already have the Bernie Employment Plan) and, unlike ours, its economy is stagnant. In short, France sucks, and, whatever you do, if you end up with late-stage cancer, DON'T GO TO FRANCE!

ALL CANCERS DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY

French strikers angry about pension reform cut power to homes, companies - Reuters
Click to expand...

The French are pretty quick to take to the streets in protest. I wonder how they would react if they had to lay out six or seven grand a month to keep Gramma in a rest home, or lay out 25 grand before their bare bones health care plan, which was all they could afford, would start to pay? If that does happen, then by all means, don't go to France.
 
Ahlevah said:
Now you're misconstruing what I wrote. I didn't say "our defense dollars paid for it." What I'm saying is our defense umbrella permitted these countries to allocate less government spending towards their own defense, and this is born out by the fact that only a handful of NATO nations meet their financial commitments to the alliance. That freed up resources for them to fund these lavish social welfare states, including socialized medicine. That's not a lie, sir. It's a fact.
Click to expand...

You're lying and you can't support that. There are no secret taxes nor did US defense spending make their Healthcare magically cheaper. The mental gymnastics you'll do and the lies you'll spew to avoid admitting we're not the best at something is appalling.

Conservative said:
You seem to believe you are an expert on every subject especially healthcare so tell me why exactly you believe that UHC will work in this country? Why is that freedom of choice is ignored? Bloomberg is running around the country as are most leftists screaming that the uninsured is rising totally ignoring why, PEOPLE CHOOSE TO NOT PARTICIPATE and that is what freedom of choice is all about. There are consequences for poor choices except in the liberal world. Healthcare is a state and local responsibility, some states have implemented their own so why don't you move to one of those?
Click to expand...

You can't point to one single healthcare system past or present like you advocate for that isn't a disaster in a ****hole country. UHC in other countries is objectively cheaper than ours. You lie because you can't accept that fact.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Cost is cost whether the money is paid in taxes or in insurance premiums, copays, minimum payments, or whatever. I'd rather pay less and get more, but you can't support that as you'd lose your conservative card.
Click to expand...

Yes, costs are costs but to trumpet lower UHC costs without context and without recognizing that other taxes are used to fund the programs is a compete distortion of reality. There is no such thing as a free lunch and with UHC comes some problems the left doesn't want to recognize. You would rather pay less, then move to a state that is more citizen friendly and has UHC, let the states decide like some have but don't force the nation on a program based upon pie in the sky beliefs it is cheaper and better
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You're lying and you can't support that. There are no secret taxes nor did US defense spending make their Healthcare magically cheaper. The mental gymnastics you'll do and the lies you'll spew to avoid admitting we're not the best at something is appalling.



You can't point to one single healthcare system past or present like you advocate for that isn't a disaster in a ****hole country. UHC in other countries is objectively cheaper than ours. You lie because you can't accept that fact.
Click to expand...

You look at everything through a liberal lens and believe what you are told, there is NO healthcare system that would be effective for a nation of 330 million people with 50 different states and costs of living along with tax structures. You really have no idea what the costs are for the citizens of the state because you are focused solely on a single issue, posted health care costs. You better do some research and also consider consequences if you are wrong. I accept actual facts, you accept what you want to believe. I posted problems with the Canadian costs which you still ignore. There is no such thing as a free lunch and before you destroy the greatest system in the world you better have all the facts and you don't
 
RabidAlpaca said:
You're lying and you can't support that. There are no secret taxes nor did US defense spending make their Healthcare magically cheaper.
Click to expand...

How can I be lying if you're the one putting words into my mouth? :confused: I said nothing about "secret taxes" or that U.S. defense spending made their healthcare "magically cheaper." But if you've studied basic economics you know that resources aren't infinite. Countries operate with budgets. I don't think you're stupid, but maybe I need to use "liberal speak" to get you to understand my point. These countries, such as most of the member states of NATO, have been "free riders" for decades, allocating less to defense spending than they would have done had there been no rich uncle to support their defense needs. Anyone with a lick of common sense can see that.
 
Last edited:
Ahlevah said:
How can I be lying if you're the one putting words into my mouth? :confused: I said nothing about "secret taxes" or that U.S. defense spending made their healthcare "magically cheaper." But if you've studied basic economics you know that resources aren't infinite. Countries operate with budgets. I don't think you're stupid, but maybe I need to use "liberal speak" to get you to understand my point. These countries, such as most of the member states of NATO, have been "free riders" for decades, allocating less to defense spending than they would have done had there been no rich uncle to support their defense needs. Anyone with a lick of common sense can see that.
Click to expand...

Other countries not spending as much as us on defense has nothing to do with them having dramatically cheaper Healthcare. Why do you defend a more expensive and inferior system? Do you hate your fellow Americans and want to see them suffer with crippling medical debt and low access to Healthcare?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Other countries not spending as much as us on defense has nothing to do with them having dramatically cheaper Healthcare. Why do you defend a more expensive and inferior system? Do you hate your fellow Americans and want to see them suffer with crippling medical debt and low access to Healthcare?
Click to expand...

Do you understand that there are states in this country that have UHC, why don't you move to one of those? You really have been indoctrinated well by the left, what is your state doing about the problem?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
Why do you defend a more expensive and inferior system? Do you hate your fellow Americans and want to see them suffer with crippling medical debt and low access to Healthcare?
Click to expand...

I defend private markets and free enterprise. Our system doesn't come close to that. Every aspect of the U.S. healthcare system is heavily regulated by government, with each constituency--doctors, hospitals, insurers, drug manufacturers, etc., zealously protecting their parochial interests. Medical care was a lot cheaper before government ****ed it up. I still remember when doctors made housecalls.
 
Ahlevah said:
I still remember when doctors made housecalls.
Click to expand...

Just as a side note. What do you think a house call should cost for someone with 12-15 years of higher education?
 
Conservative said:
Do you understand that there are states in this country that have UHC, why don't you move to one of those? You really have been indoctrinated well by the left, what is your state doing about the problem?
Click to expand...

Excuse me, but which states of the US have universal health care?
 
bave said:
Just as a side note. What do you think a house call should cost for someone with 12-15 years of higher education?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't know what a house call cost back in the '60s when I grew up, and even if I did I don't think I could compare the now with the then, even adjusting for inflation, because the circumstances were so much different. We didn't have an army of tort lawyers looking for a payday, a medical education that cost a king's ransom, and the government mandates that exist today, so the economics of it weren't the same. That's why it's generally not done, although I understand some doctors are going back to it, just as they are refusing insurance and just performing a service for a fee.
 
Last edited:
Dittohead not! said:
Excuse me, but which states of the US have universal health care?
Click to expand...
he won't answer you
he just runs his mouth off and very seldom can he back it up with facts
I wonder just how much the cost of drugs would go up if the pharmaceutical ind. didn't get the hundreds of millions / if not Billions in funding from our tax dollars.
They are an independent industry ( so they say, ) but they get hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money. and that all goes to improving their bottom line
it is fact it is cheaper for them to have the taxpayer pay for a lot of their research and dev. and other things then if they did it themselves
YES it is a FACT that our tax dollars go to these corps. making hundreds if not Billions in US profit to help them develop their new drugs
have a nice night
 
Tbird19482 said:
he won't answer you
he just runs his mouth off and very seldom can he back it up with facts
I wonder just how much the cost of drugs would go up if the pharmaceutical ind. didn't get the hundreds of millions / if not Billions in funding from our tax dollars.
They are an independent industry ( so they say, ) but they get hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money. and that all goes to improving their bottom line
it is fact it is cheaper for them to have the taxpayer pay for a lot of their research and dev. and other things then if they did it themselves
YES it is a FACT that our tax dollars go to these corps. making hundreds if not Billions in US profit to help them develop their new drugs
have a nice night
Click to expand...
Here is the search I did on this subject
how much US tax money is given to the Big pharmaceutical corps. in Government research grants - Google Search
and again I wonder just what drugs would cost usif they didn't get all this taxpayer money
another thing why is it that our drug costs are so much more in the US then a lot of other countries when we are giving these companies all this money
have a nice night
 
Ahlevah said:
I assume you're talking about the major industrialized nations of the world and not, say, Cuba or Venezuela. In the post-WWII era, these countries saved trillions of dollars thanks to the U.S defense umbrella, so of course they could afford more butter. Their medical systems also mooched off of the U.S. economy for decades. Drug treatments were developed here, at U.S. taxpayer and consumer expense (thanks to the NIS, government research grants, and industry-funded university research), then the foreign national health services negotiated lower prices than what the companies charged Americans. But in recent years that calculus has started to shift, and expensive, cutting-edge treatments simply aren't available to foreigners because their national health systems' cost-benefit analyses have deemed them too expensive for the benefit received. Also, the drug companies, thanks to pharmacy benefit managers who, due to their large scale, can be tough negotiators on behalf of medical insurers, are no longer finding Americans to be the patsies they once were. This is forcing the the drug companies to make tough choices when it comes to what treatments they make available outside of the country and at what cost.
Click to expand...

I'll bet that you can't back up any of these claims with evidence.

The claim that American medicine is more advanced than that in Europe and Japan is some of the most ridiculous, Ameri-centric tripe that I have ever heard.

Think about it - do you really think that pharm companies sell anything to any customer at a loss, just because that buyer is a good negotiator? Americans pay more because companies write our legislation, and companies pay for our politicians to get elected. The whole American playing field is slanted in favor of business, yet conservatives are always crying about how unfair they have it.
 
Conservative said:
Anyone that disagrees with a liberal is a plant from some lobbyist group. Actual data and facts have no place in the liberal thought process. My agenda is to promote the private sector and personal responsibility which the left despises, not sure why unless they are the ones that are lobbyists or employed by political campaigns
Click to expand...

Geez, and all this time I just thought you were clueless about economics.
 
Tbird19482 said:
he won't answer you
he just runs his mouth off and very seldom can he back it up with facts
I wonder just how much the cost of drugs would go up if the pharmaceutical ind. didn't get the hundreds of millions / if not Billions in funding from our tax dollars.
They are an independent industry ( so they say, ) but they get hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer money. and that all goes to improving their bottom line
it is fact it is cheaper for them to have the taxpayer pay for a lot of their research and dev. and other things then if they did it themselves
YES it is a FACT that our tax dollars go to these corps. making hundreds if not Billions in US profit to help them develop their new drugs
have a nice night
Click to expand...

For someone who does nothing but run from debates never answering direct questions you don't have a lot of credibility, Have a good night
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
Geez, and all this time I just thought you were clueless about economics.
Click to expand...

From what I have seen from you sounds a lot like you are looking in a mirror and seeing someone who is really clueless. Liberals don't have a lot of logic, common sense, or civics training. Pretty soon you are going to run out of someone else's money to spend
 
Conservative said:
For someone who does nothing but run from debates never answering direct questions you don't have a lot of credibility, Have a good night
Click to expand...

Most people that run from debates and never answer direct questions have a lot of credibility?
 
ecofarm said:
Most people that run from debates and never answer direct questions have a lot of credibility?
Click to expand...

That would be the liberal definition, for most of us what is being a coward and not able to defend a position
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
I'll bet that you can't back up any of these claims with evidence.
Click to expand...

I'll bet I can. A simple Google search brings up multiple hits. For example:

Amgen’s cholesterol-lowering antibody Repatha is being launched in Europe at well below the new drug’s cost in the US, raising the chance that American payers will seek hefty discounts on the drug.

Repatha (evolocumab) will be sold in the UK at a cost of $6,780 per year, less than half the $14,100 Amgen is charging for the drug in the US, with the price in other EU markets typically below $9,000.

Amgen to sell Repatha in Europe at steep discount to US
Click to expand...

JohnfrmClevelan said:
The claim that American medicine is more advanced than that in Europe and Japan is some of the most ridiculous, Ameri-centric tripe that I have ever heard.
Click to expand...

It would be if anyone made it. I certainly didn't. I said foreigners have been free-riding off of drug development/research funded by U.S. consumers/taxpayers.

JohnfrmClevelan said:
Think about it - do you really think that pharm companies sell anything to any customer at a loss, just because that buyer is a good negotiator? Americans pay more because companies write our legislation, and companies pay for our politicians to get elected. The whole American playing field is slanted in favor of business, yet conservatives are always crying about how unfair they have it.
Click to expand...

I didn't say thay either. I said the foreigners are charged less than Americans. I didn't say the drugs were sold at a loss. Why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth? :doh
 
Conservative said:
Do you understand that there are states in this country that have UHC, why don't you move to one of those? You really have been indoctrinated well by the left, what is your state doing about the problem?
Click to expand...

Ahlevah said:
I defend private markets and free enterprise. Our system doesn't come close to that. Every aspect of the U.S. healthcare system is heavily regulated by government, with each constituency--doctors, hospitals, insurers, drug manufacturers, etc., zealously protecting their parochial interests. Medical care was a lot cheaper before government ****ed it up. I still remember when doctors made housecalls.
Click to expand...

Neither of you can point to one single example of what you want working as a healthcare system, anywhere, past or present. I can point to dozens and dozens examples of working UHC systems, many that rank higher than ours in every metric.

Ahlevah said:
I'll bet I can. A simple Google search brings up multiple hits. For example:





It would be if anyone made it. I certainly didn't. I said foreigners have been free-riding off of drug development/research funded by U.S. consumers/taxpayers.



I didn't say thay either. I said the foreigners are charged less than Americans. I didn't say the drugs were sold at a loss. Why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth? :doh
Click to expand...

LOL, every other country pays less for their drugs because their governments force the companies to negotiate. America doesn't negotiate and gets ****ed over the table. This is the system you want, you want the pharmaceutical companies to be able to charge sick and desperate people any sum they want.

Hilarious that you admit America is being ****ed over but you blame other countries for getting to pay less instead of the pharmaceutical companies for making us pay more.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom