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Can we pay for healthcare and SS with sales tax?

MrWonka said:
You're offering an example of a flawed government run health care system does nothing to argue against a properly run single payer system.

Furthermore, Private insurance companies reject patients like this all the ****ing time. In fact, capitalism drives surgeons to refuse to even perform many high risk procedures because the Surgeons can leverage higher salaries if they can promote a higher success rate.

The person who made this very suggestion is arguing from the conservative free market position as if this type of thing was perfectly okay. I can assure you Bernie Sanders of all people would not let something like this happen.
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So IHS, a program which is basically single payer (the federal government pays for IHS), isn't an example of how the government would run a nationwide single payer system? Don't forget we also can see how the VA is run, which is also a single payer system run by the federal government, and as anyone can see BOTH programs are poorly run.

Now there is a way to provide insurance to everyone who want's give decent coverage, and keep the cost down. Of course when it was proposed it didn't even get a reading much less a vote. Yes I can give you details if you wish.
 
MrWonka said:
aociswundumho said:
Surely Americans could each donate 90% of their income and wealth in order to save the lives of other people outside of the U.S., correct? Or is the money more important than non-American human lives?
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Neither, it is not necessary for Americans to donate significantly more of their income to save the lives of the rest of the world.
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Great, so now it seems you are moving to my side of the argument, which includes the claim that American's have no obligation to pay for the healthcare of non-Americans. Since there is no moral obligation for me to pay for the healthcare of any non-American person, why would anything change if the person who needs healthcare turns out to be an American citizen? Answer: it wouldn't.

The only sensible moral statement regarding healthcare is this: You want healthcare? Pay for it yourself. No one has any moral obligation to pay your medical bills for you.
 
MrWonka said:
Sorry, but I'm gonna with mild dependability there still. The amount of information that existed about Donald Trump before the election and the clear racism, sexism, xenophobia, Islamophobia, homophobia and general bigotry of his base cannot be overlooked and justified by bull**** about guns and taxes.

There are two excuses and two excuses only for voting for Donald Trump. 1.) you are a ****ing moron. 2.) you're a bad person. Sadly I'd say for the majority of his voters it's a little bit of column A and a little bit of Column B. To me it's no different than voting for Mussolini because you thought he'd make the Trains run on time. Whatever bull**** excuse you came up with in your mind that allowed you to believe Hillary would be worse cannot be excused for any reason.
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Well.. If your premise is correct.. a good portion of the people the democrats need to win over to win this next election are "morons and bad people".

Hmmm.. do you think they should start with that? "We want you to vote democrat because we think you are morons and bad people." ..

Sounds like a winning strategy to me..:doh

Jeez... you guys just don't get it do you? But no.. go about telling the people that you need to switch from voting for Trump.. to voting for the Democrat Candidate.. that they are all morons and bad people.

Sheesh.
 
aociswundumho said:
First, where is the 9 year old with acute appendicitis located? Does your moral argument for forcing me to pay for his treatment still hold if he's in Uganda? It should, if it's a moral argument your making.
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The US.

As far as Uganda.. no.. its not the same moral argument.

Just like its not the same argument that you have a moral responsibility to call 911 when your neighbor is being raped...

Which means that you have the same moral responsibility to fly to Uganda and become a mercenary to stop a Uganda woman from being raped.
 
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jaeger19 said:
The US.
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So it's a nationalist argument, not a moral argument. If it were a moral argument, the nationality of the people wouldn't matter at all.

As I said before, there is no sound moral argument to compel some people to pay for the healthcare of others.

You want healthcare? Pay for it yourself, and keep your hands out of my pocket.
 
aociswundumho said:
So it's a nationalist argument, not a moral argument. If it were a moral argument, the nationality of the people wouldn't matter at all.

As I said before, there is no sound moral argument to compel some people to pay for the healthcare of others.

You want healthcare? Pay for it yourself, and keep your hands out of my pocket.
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No its a moral argument.

ARE you saying that if a man steps over a woman in pain in the street..

This is morally the same as if the man doesn't help a woman in pain 4000 miles away?

Stop being obtuse.

By the way... I pay for people like yourselves healthcare.. all the time.. so I get tired of hearing it. Because when folks like yourself go without healthcare insurance.. and they get sick or injured.. they come to my hospitals.. where by law.. I am FORCED to take care of you. And you love it.. and you don't pay any bill.. and then you reach into my pocket to take advantage of it.

If you have insurance.. then you dang well.. should want people having to have insurance. Mandated healthcare insurance. Because otherwise it costs us. AND if people go without insurance.. it costs us even more..

UNLESS.. you don't mind letting that 9 year old in your community die because his parents can't afford it.
 
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jaeger19 said:
No its a moral argument.

ARE you saying that if a man steps over a woman in pain in the street..

This is morally the same as if the man doesn't help a woman in pain 4000 miles away?
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Make her 10 feet away, right across a political border. Again, you can't use nationality as a criterion for whom you have a moral obligation to help. It's just dumb.

Also to remove any doubt regarding this situation:

ARE you saying that if a man steps over a woman in pain in the street..
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The man has no moral obligation to pay for this woman's healthcare, even if they are of the same nationality.

The burden is on you here. I do not have any moral obligation whatsoever to pay the medical bills of people who are strangers to me.
I doubt there is a single person reading this who feels morally obligated to start writing checks to pay for other people's medical bills.


UNLESS.. you don't mind letting that 9 year old in your community die because his parents can't afford it.
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I don't mind one bit. If I did care I would donate to the parents, just like anyone else.
 
aociswundumho said:
Make her 10 feet away, right across a political border.
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Well then you should help her. Call the authorities.. do everything you can do to help her.

The difference isn't in the nationality.. its in the practicality of it.

And yes.. you do have a burden.. a moral burden... unless you don't feel you have any moral burden to help the woman 10 feet away.

Do you feel that? Do you think that you have no moral burden to help a stranger 10 feet away writhing in pain.. and you won't call 9/11?

And you would be wrong.. I feel morally obligated to write checks to pay for other peoples medical bills..and do so all the time. Not to mention the free care that I give.

I don't mind one bit.
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Well okay then... you don't care if a nine year old in your neighborhood dies because they don't have healthcare.

Not sure you can claim any moral high ground here. :doh
 
jaeger19 said:
Well then you should help her. Call the authorities.. do everything you can do to help her.

The difference isn't in the nationality.. its in the practicality of it.

And yes.. you do have a burden.. a moral burden... unless you don't feel you have any moral burden to help the woman 10 feet away.

Do you feel that? Do you think that you have no moral burden to help a stranger 10 feet away writhing in pain.. and you won't call 9/11?
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You're not even following what we are talking about. My guess is you're half in the bag, so I'm not going to bother responding to this.
 
Jimmy Who said:
Most wealthy people are wealthy because of people that are not. If someone that works for a living or is part of a tax system and they do not have Healthcare or Retirement is sad! You the wealthy owe them at least that. So don't look for my consent anytime soon.
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Someone that works for a living gets paid, and can pay for their own services like the rest of us.
 
Jimmy Who said:
Just asking why and why not?
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Whatever tax we try to use, it will take trillions if we are going to insure every human alive whos feet stand on US soil, whether legally or otherwise.
 
jonny5 said:
Someone that works for a living gets paid, and can pay for their own services like the rest of us.
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Who's the rest of you, the wealthy? Not everyone has a job that can pay for food, shelter and clothing never mind Healthcare or Retirement. I don't respect or like someone for there job or money. I respect or like someone for just being a good person. I feel if someone is employed, or pays taxes and is a citizen. They should have Healthcare and Retirement. We Are The USA. We Can Make It Happen?
 
jaeger19 said:
Not me. I will be a loser to social security. Even if I took out now.. which I am not even close to eligible... with the amount that I would get at the highest payout.. I would have to live to 101 to break even.
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The article says otherwise.
 
Jimmy Who said:
Who's the rest of you, the wealthy? Not everyone has a job that can pay for food, shelter and clothing never mind Healthcare or Retirement. I don't respect or like someone for there job or money. I respect or like someone for just being a good person. I feel if someone is employed, or pays taxes and is a citizen. They should have Healthcare and Retirement. We Are The USA. We Can Make It Happen?
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Youre entitled to your opinion, just not my consent or my property. If you want the federal govt to provide healthcare and retirement to taxpayers at my expense, then get the consent of 3/4 of the states like the law requires.
 
aociswundumho said:
You're not even following what we are talking about. My guess is you're half in the bag, so I'm not going to bother responding to this.
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Your failure to address my points is noted. And now you are resorting to insults.
 
jonny5 said:
Youre entitled to your opinion, just not my consent or my property. If you want the federal govt to provide healthcare and retirement to taxpayers at my expense, then get the consent of 3/4 of the states like the law requires.
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How do you think most people can afford Healthcare or Retirement on what they make? Ask someone that cleans your bathroom etc.
 
Jimmy Who said:
How do you think most people can afford Healthcare or Retirement on what they make? Ask someone that cleans your bathroom etc.
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Civility is a must. If you want me to continue discussing, stop being condescending.
 
jonny5 said:
Civility is a must. If you want me to continue discussing, stop being condescending.
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It's a simple question. I think a lot of people clean the restrooms I use, the hotels I stay in etc. It may not sound like a great job to you but some may enjoy that career. I am one that am glad they do. They are trying to help themselves and us. Do I think most can afford Healthcare and Retirement NO. Should they have it YES. Not being condescending. Do you think they should have it and how can the afford it?
 
Jimmy Who said:
It's a simple question. I think a lot of people clean the restrooms I use, the hotels I stay in etc. It may not sound like a great job to you but some may enjoy that career. I am one that am glad they do. They are trying to help themselves and us. Do I think most can afford Healthcare and Retirement NO. Should they have it YES. Not being condescending. Do you think they should have it and how can the afford it?
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I think healthcare and retirement are an individuals responsibility to provide, not societies. Cleaning bathrooms is irrelevant.
 
jonny5 said:
I think healthcare and retirement are an individuals responsibility to provide, not societies. Cleaning bathrooms is irrelevant.
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so these people who work at min. wage , some working two jobs just to survive should take some of the money they need to live on and buy health insurance ( remember health ins. is not cheap )
or just not buy it and either die or go to the emergency room and run the cost of healthcare up or go into debt for possibly years or the rest of their lives
have a nice day
 
jonny5 said:
I think healthcare and retirement are an individuals responsibility to provide, not societies. Cleaning bathrooms is irrelevant.
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Do you think we should eliminate all financial aid for Healthcare? This includes turning away those at a Hospital who do not have cash, can not or did not purchase insurance or have missed a payment so insurance dropped them. We all pay for that now.
 
Tbird19482 said:
so these people who work at min. wage , some working two jobs just to survive should take some of the money they need to live on and buy health insurance ( remember health ins. is not cheap )
or just not buy it and either die or go to the emergency room and run the cost of healthcare up or go into debt for possibly years or the rest of their lives
have a nice day
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I think its not societies responsibility. You are free to tell them what to do or help them if you want. You just shouldnt make society do it without consent.
 
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