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Whither Social Security?

In some respects this is a political/economic philosophy thread. In the absence of social security the income inequality gap would be far worse. SS ameliorates it substantially, because it places a floor under 62 million Americans. The average payout is somewhere around $1400/ month - barely over the poverty rate for a couple - one of the lowest rates in the developed world. (The Max Benefit is about twice that.)
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(CBPP: Ten Facts).
Social Security provides the majority of income to most elderly Americans. For about half of seniors, it provides at least 50 percent of their income, and for about 1 in 4 seniors, it provides at least 90 percent of income, across multiple surveys and the recent study that matches survey and administrative data.
This is particularly true for women, children and people of color.
The poverty rate among Black and Latino seniors is over 2.5 times as high as for white seniors. There is a significant racial retirement wealth gap, leading seniors of color to face more retirement insecurity than white seniors. African American and Latino workers are less likely to be offered workplace retirement plans and likelier to work in low-wage jobs with little margin for savings. Social Security helps reduce the economic disparities between white seniors and seniors of color.

The philosophy behind SS is to provide a floor. It does that, but the floor is pretty low. Because it is not means-tested, administration costs are extremely low. In the other hand, those with significant income need it very little. Upping the taxable rate (i.e. incomes above $133k) will require a change in the payout formula. But that makes sense if the philosophy is a) social insurance and b) providing a floor above poverty.
 
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Another aspect of Social Security the is routinely overlooked is its impact on the overall economy.
Social Security benefit payments support more than
9 million jobs and add almost $1.4 trillion in output to the overall American economy.
Every dollar of Social Security benefits generates about $2 of economic output.
Social Security’s Impact on the National Economy (AARP Policy Institute). Not a bad return on investment.
 
It's campaign season, so there are at least a half-dozen "plans" to address one of the most popular programs ever created in the United States. No longer the "third rail" of political discourse, it is a welcome topic of discussion. Why? Because it is in trouble. The current $2.9 Trillion "trust funds" will be depleted by 2035. About its 100th birthday.What the 2019 Trustees’ Report Shows About Social Security (Center Budget Priorities).

Social Security has been the greatest social insurance program in the world. I say that, not because it is the best organized or funded, but because it has kept more people out of poverty for longer. Why Social Security Is a Success, in Four Charts (New Republic). It has been in effect for 84 years, so most Americans have no concept of a world without it.

Why is it in trouble? Demographics. Elizabeth Warren’s plan to expand Social Security, explained (Vox). So, the answers to fix it are pretty straightforward: fix the actuarial basis, cut benefits, or boost the tax base.

Since the first one smacks of a Soylent Green solution, let's concentrate on the second two. (Although one proposal, Promoting Economic Growth through Social Security Reform, does address the actuarial side of the equation by encouraging delayed applications.) Cuts have actually already been tried, unsuccessfully. The COLA formula was changed, and benefits have been delayed. Not only is this unpopular, but it hasn't fixed the problem.

There are several plans already out there, including the two I've already referenced. Half the Democratic field have proposals. [Why am I not discussing Republican plans? I haven't found any.] They should be considered, tweaked, and implemented. Editorial: Don’t delay reforms to shore up Social Security (Herald.net).
Like universal healthcare, Social Security can be a fundamental factor to strengthen our economy, rather than being a burden. In my view, people need to understand that.

What a useless worthless post. You can always count on the US Congress to fix something one minute before midnight, after several extensions have already expired.
 
Fixed it for you. You're welcome (to go).

LOL. As usual the left's only argument is to edit posts to have them read what they want to instead of debating the subject.
 
LOL. As usual the left's only argument is to edit posts to have them read what they want to instead of debating the subject.

Why don't you point us to your most insightful post, then, so we can see how it should be done?
 
Why don't you point us to your most insightful post, then, so we can see how it should be done?

How about the one is this thread that says the US Congress will eventually fix the SS system, even if it is at the 11th hour? To make a post implying that SS won't eventually be fixed is just downright stupid.
 
My friends, we have had dozens of threads on Social Security and needing a fix. I am beginning to question if anyone really understands how Social Security interacts with the General Fund when looking over the Social Security Administration numbers for FY2018 to the projections for FY2020.

As of April 2019 (the last annual report from the SSA) we are on course to have full benefits by the Fund assets well into 2034, with combined (reserves) taking us 1-2 years past that. On top of that we are seeing net asset increases year on year (been the case for several years now.)

What we do not see is some massive change to trend direction occuring within the next 10 years changing this course *unless* someone changes conditions for beneficiaries of Social Security between now and then. (Minor trend changes yes with our aging population, but nothing to suggest the Fund is in immediate trouble.)

What is the actual problem we are debating?
 
LOL. As usual the left's only argument is to edit posts to have them read what they want to instead of debating the subject.

That is so laughably inept and dishonest it deserves no response. Your only purpose in posting was/is to troll. Go do it elsewhere.
 
Why don't you point us to your most insightful post, then, so we can see how it should be done?

That's 34,000 posts of lack of insight and content to go through. If someone isn't even willing to read a 4-page thread, how can they be expected to provide a cogent response? Leave them in the dustbin. Don't feed the trolls ರ╭╮ರ
 
That is so laughably inept and dishonest it deserves no response. Your only purpose in posting was/is to troll. Go do it elsewhere.

So you deny that you edited my post you quoted? All anyone has to do is go back and they will see that it is you who are the dishonest one.
 
So you deny that you edited my post you quoted? All anyone has to do is go back and they will see that it is you who are the dishonest one.

If it weren't for lies you'd have nothing to say. As I said, go say it elsewhere. You're disturbing the adults.
 
My friends, we have had dozens of threads on Social Security and needing a fix. I am beginning to question if anyone really understands how Social Security interacts with the General Fund when looking over the Social Security Administration numbers for FY2018 to the projections for FY2020.

As of April 2019 (the last annual report from the SSA) we are on course to have full benefits by the Fund assets well into 2034, with combined (reserves) taking us 1-2 years past that. On top of that we are seeing net asset increases year on year (been the case for several years now.)

What we do not see is some massive change to trend direction occuring within the next 10 years changing this course *unless* someone changes conditions for beneficiaries of Social Security between now and then. (Minor trend changes yes with our aging population, but nothing to suggest the Fund is in immediate trouble.)

What is the actual problem we are debating?

The left are trying to pedal their liberal ideas about a fix on something, as you said, that doesn't need fixing now. The left imply that Republicans don't want to fix the projected future shortfalls, which is just an utter lie.
 
The left are trying to pedal their liberal ideas about a fix on something, as you said, that doesn't need fixing now. The left imply that Republicans don't want to fix the projected future shortfalls, which is just an utter lie.

Perhaps it would be nice if it were that simple but I think we both know better.

The majority of the posts in this thread suggest the typical ideological gridlock of who is going to pay for extending full benefits beyond 2034 (presumably,) the rich or everyone else.
 
Perhaps it would be nice if it were that simple but I think we both know better.

The majority of the posts in this thread suggest the typical ideological gridlock of who is going to pay for extending full benefits beyond 2034 (presumably,) the rich or everyone else.
Maybe if the would put the FICA tax rate back to what it was
for years many people paid more into SS then they do now, it would increase the SS trust fund reserves and instead of the SS Trust fund only being able to invest their reserves in US bonds open it up so they can invest those reserves in very SECURE bonds that pay higher interest , increasing the Trust funds reserves and keeping it viable for more years.
One more thing we should have a Corp. income tax that could be at say 10% with NO deductions for Corps. this way every Corp.would be paying something in FIT
They do get to use some programs that FIT pays for so why is it that 42% of all US Corps didn't pay a cent in FIT in 2017 and the GAO says that that rate would be going up to 65% after the Trump tax cut.
YES there are a lot and I mean a LOT of US corps making millions if not Billions in US profits that do NOT pay one cent in FIT.
They use these programs to make their profits so they should help pay for those programs
and as for the debt. why not have a 1 % national sales tax used JUST to pay off the debt and a balanced budget amendment with some real teeth in it so we can NOT spend any more then we take in except during a war or a deep recession / depression.
The sales tax would be dropped after the debt was paid off and could only be reinstated IF we went to war or had a deep recession where we had to run a debt again
Everybody received some benefit from running a debt so everybody should help pay it off , and one of the only ways to do this is a sales tax,
and EVERYBODY even corps. would pay it and it would not be deductible on FIT for any one
Have a nice day
 
Perhaps it would be nice if it were that simple but I think we both know better.

The majority of the posts in this thread suggest the typical ideological gridlock of who is going to pay for extending full benefits beyond 2034 (presumably,) the rich or everyone else.

Why should the rich pay for extending SS benefits? It was designed for individuals to ante up half and businesses to ante up half, meaning the richer are already paying in 50% as it is. There isn't any reason that we can't keep it that way and just increase the payroll tax. However, I am for means testing of social security. I see no need for Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates to receive a social security check and, even if they donated that money to charity, they are still taking money that could have gone to John and Jane Doe for retirement and giving Bezos and Gates a tax deduction for their charitable contribution to boot.
 
Why should the rich pay for extending SS benefits? It was designed for individuals to ante up half and businesses to ante up half, meaning the richer are already paying in 50% as it is. There isn't any reason that we can't keep it that way and just increase the payroll tax. However, I am for means testing of social security. I see no need for Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates to receive a social security check and, even if they donated that money to charity, they are still taking money that could have gone to John and Jane Doe for retirement and giving Bezos and Gates a tax deduction for their charitable contribution to boot.

No, it was originally designed as a social safety net, so retirees wouldn't suffer through poverty, as they were doing in great numbers. It was sold as a pay-in pension to make it politically bullet-proof. FDR knew that any social safety net would be constantly attacked by the rich. And he was correct.
 
No, it was originally designed as a social safety net, so retirees wouldn't suffer through poverty, as they were doing in great numbers. It was sold as a pay-in pension to make it politically bullet-proof. FDR knew that any social safety net would be constantly attacked by the rich. And he was correct.

What a bunch of blabbering just to say that I was right. Why couldn't you have said that right off the bat?
 
What a bunch of blabbering just to say that I was right. Why couldn't you have said that right off the bat?

Because you weren't right. You are never right. You've never been right in the past. And for future reference, you will probably never be right in the future, either.
 
Because you weren't right. You are never right. You've never been right in the past. And for future reference, you will probably never be right in the future, either.

SS is set up whereby the individual pays 50% of the taxes and their employer pays 50% of the ss taxes. That's what I said. Why you want to deny that is absurd. The rich people already pay 50% of SS taxes! They don't get any benefit from that, the individual does. And, the rich people also pay 50% of the medicare taxes.
 
How about the one is this thread that says the US Congress will eventually fix the SS system, even if it is at the 11th hour? To make a post implying that SS won't eventually be fixed is just downright stupid.

Yes, it is stupid.

He obviously doesn't understand political strategy.

Remember the body armor thing?

The American people wanted soldiers to have body armor, so Congress must spend money in a must-pass Bill.

Naturally, the Democrats loaded the Bill with pork-amendments and ear-marks.

Congressman Steve Chabot (R) voted against the Bill on 8 different occasions, precisely because it was over-loaded with unnecessary pork and ear-marks. After the crap was removed, Chabot voted for it.

Then, in the next election, Steve Driehaus (D) runs commercials accusing Chabot of not wanting to help American soldiers because he voted against the Bill 8 times.

The commercials conveniently forgot to mention Chabot was voting against the pork and ear-marks, not the body armor.

Social Security is like that. By waiting to the 11th Hour, it becomes a must-have/must-pass Bill that can be loaded with all kinds of extraneous pork and ear-marks to bloat the deficit.

Then, if you don't vote for a Bill loaded with pork and ear-marks, you get accused of being against the American people.

That's part of the strategy and both parties do it, but Democrats by far are the worst.


My friends, we have had dozens of threads on Social Security and needing a fix. I am beginning to question if anyone really understands how Social Security interacts with the General Fund when looking over the Social Security Administration numbers for FY2018 to the projections for FY2020.

There is no interaction. They are two totally separate independent things.

It is true that money from the General Fund is used to buy the special treasury securities in the OASI Trust Fund and convert them to cash for payment of benefits, but it's also true that interest rates on those special treasury securities are much higher -- some as high as 11%-- than marketable treasury bills, bonds and notes, so that it costs you less to service General Fund debt than it does to service OASI Trust Fund debt.

As of April 2019 (the last annual report from the SSA) we are on course to have full benefits by the Fund assets well into 2034, with combined (reserves) taking us 1-2 years past that. On top of that we are seeing net asset increases year on year (been the case for several years now.)

It's also true that the Trustees never take recessions into account, and you are likely to have two recessions, possibly three recessions before 2034.

I am also on record as suggesting that you will have real Monetary Inflation from about 2025 on (to about 2034), so that the COLA increases will be double-digit COLA increases like the 10%-14% COLA increases in the 1970s and 1980s that will eat up the Trust Fund faster.

I project 2027-2028 as the date of default.

What is the actual problem we are debating?

The funding formula for Social Security (and Medicare) is just simple 6th Grade Math:

Revenues = # of Workers * Wages * FICA Tax Rate

From our 6th Grade Math classes, we know that if we increase or decrease any one of the factors, the product will increase or decrease accordingly.

Let's examine.

Increasing wages will not help Social Security, since benefits are based on wages. Increase wages and you increase benefits to get an off-set, so that fails.

Initially, you had 156.4 workers for each Social Security beneficiary. That ratio has dwindled to 2.6 workers for each beneficiary. You are effectively 11 Million workers short and even if you got all 5.5 Million currently unemployed jobs by 8:00 AM tomorrow and you sent your army to foreign countries and kidnapped 5.5 Million workers, brought them back to the US and got them jobs by 8:00 AM tomorrow you'd have to maintain a 0.0% UE Rate for the next 200 years.

That would cost a lot to use your army to kidnap 5.5 Million workers.

Or, you could just raise the FICA Payroll Tax from 6.2% for employer and employee to 8.0%-8.2% for employer and employee and be done with it.

Your ratio of workers to beneficiaries will decline to 2:1 by 2040, but the good news is it will remain that for the next 200 years.

So, all you need to do is step-increase the FICA tax rate to 8.0%-8.2% through 2030 and Social Security will be solvent for the next 200 years.
 
I'm going to get my full social security benefits and that's all I care about.If todays younger workers have to work more hours or two jobs to support me I don't care.Thank you.
 
One problem with your idea: everybody likes and wants their programs that benefit them and Congress will bend over backwards to give it to them to get re-elected.

The sad truth is that if you were to ask the American people to do without...you will be replaced with someone who won't demand sacrifice to country in any meaningful way.

Or to put it another way, waving the flag and reciting the Pledge is patriotic, but if you ask Americans to have our students start eating fruits for snacks instead of cheesy poofs they start screaming socialism.
 
SS is set up whereby the individual pays 50% of the taxes and their employer pays 50% of the ss taxes. That's what I said. Why you want to deny that is absurd. The rich people already pay 50% of SS taxes! They don't get any benefit from that, the individual does. And, the rich people also pay 50% of the medicare taxes.

If you're saying that the "rich" own businesses, and since the employer pays half of payroll taxes, that means the rich fund them, you should read a little bit about the economic "incidence" of payroll taxes. Here's a primer: What Are Payroll Taxes and Who Pays Them? | Tax Foundation

The TL/dr version is in economic terms (as opposed to the legal incidence of the tax) employees 'pay' for at least a huge chunk of the employer share with lower wages.
 
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