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government walls and spending

No, literally. Not only is all the paper gone, but you cant even make new paper. Youve literally run out.

Under the same conditions could the US dollar become worthless, if we printed 999 sextillion dollars and put them in circulation.

Your fear is that the Fed and Treasury would get themselves into a position where they ran out of paper to make money? At the end of your logic, is this where it all ends? Absurdity is too mild a word for this stuff, hilarity is too charitable, insanity too reasonable.
 
The classic "money is the cause of economic problems" argument.

Don't keep this foolishness alive by answering, Vadinho.

Please explain why what I said is foolish. You cannot have a boom..and a resulting crash.. without access to the money for the boom.. can you John?
 
Then you are advocating that the existing monetary policies of the entire world gets thrown down the toilet? Do you realize that MMT merely describes what is, it rarely ventures into what ought.

All MMT does.. is well nothing.

All it is, is recognition of fiat money systems. that's it

It has no predictive value. No explanation of economic behavior/human behavior in economics.

Its basically a useless "theory".. meant to sell books to layman that have no understanding of economics.
 
Please explain why what I said is foolish. You cannot have a boom..and a resulting crash.. without access to the money for the boom.. can you John?

What about humans? Or better yet, how about air? You can't have a boom and resulting crash without humans or air! :lamo
 
Question. IF the banks could not have "lent at will".. and there was no access to money for mortages…

Would there have been a mortgage crisis? Its a simple question.. yes or no?

Just answer yes or no.

Are you saying that fractional reserve banking by definition leads to collapse or recession? That is an interesting point which was recognized way back in the 30s by Keynes. What followed was strict control over banking that created decades of continued prosperity without major financial disasters. When Keynsian remedies fell out of favor in the late 70s, it was replaced philosophically by the rantings of a very clever man, Milton Friedman. As soon as his advice replaced Keynes as the dominant economic thought worldwide, we started to see recession after recession and several versions of financial collapses all across the world. I favor fractional reserve banking but under heavy supervision.
 
All MMT does.. is well nothing.

All it is, is recognition of fiat money systems. that's it

It has no predictive value. No explanation of economic behavior/human behavior in economics.

Its basically a useless "theory".. meant to sell books to layman that have no understanding of economics.

I can see that you really have not spent any time listening or learning about MMT or you would not have posted this conclusion. Traditional economics misses the truth about money and macro policy because it ignores what is truly going on. If you pass right by the fundamentals of a financial system and go straight to predetermined outcomes, how can anyone have faith that these outcomes are based upon a solid foundation? MMT is shaking up the economics of the world because it challenges the lack of foundations in traditional macro. What ought to be is different then what is. If an economic theory starts with what ought to be and then looks for what is in order to justify its biases, then it is not economics, it is an ideology. This is why so many consider Mizes and Hayek and Ayn Rand to be quacks, they are rarely taken seriously.
 
Are you saying that fractional reserve banking by definition leads to collapse or recession? That is an interesting point which was recognized way back in the 30s by Keynes. What followed was strict control over banking that created decades of continued prosperity without major financial disasters. When Keynsian remedies fell out of favor in the late 70s, it was replaced philosophically by the rantings of a very clever man, Milton Friedman. As soon as his advice replaced Keynes as the dominant economic thought worldwide, we started to see recession after recession and several versions of financial collapses all across the world. I favor fractional reserve banking but under heavy supervision.

No.

He doesn't know how to let anything go, or how to be gracious when corrected for saying something invalid/incomplete/incorrect. So he thinks he can save some face by pushing the same losing argument in another thread. It's something Trump would do.
 
Its not a wage, since they arent working. Its more like asking if I had the power to take whatever I wanted from a bank, how much would I take? Well, on principle, only what I owned. I would not take other peoples property.

How about the 100's of millions in bribes I mean for speeches.
 
DHS, ICE and Border Patrol have all stated the wall works and is a positive.
I know, this is an aside, but this post made me laugh out loud. "DHS, ICE and CBP all have "acting directors" because Trump hasn't nominated anyone. They can all be replaced at will, so of course whatever the boss says. If it was a priority, you'd think he'd put some energy into it. That you fell for the con is stupendous.
 
That's funny. See.. here is the thing.. maybe.. just maybe.. that answers you seek are NOT in macro economics. You ever notice how often Macroeconomics theories.. never seem to predict the next crash? Where were the macroeconomic theories predicting the great recession? How did they predict that mortgage crisis?

Oh wait... ....
That response is such a hodgepodge of disassociated elements it does not have a chance to coalesce into something rational. Apples, oranges, and orangutans are mixed into a medley salad that isn't even edible.
 
That response is such a hodgepodge of disassociated elements it does not have a chance to coalesce into something rational. Apples, oranges, and orangutans are mixed into a medley salad that isn't even edible.


We are not dealing with a serious thinker or student of macro and predictive theories. All one has to do to reveal the flaw in predicting the future is read The Black Swan. As for accuracy in predictions, if a model was created which could predict the future accurately and reliably, it would influence the future for those people who had access to this model. By knowing the future, a person today could make decisions that predict it for their own benefit thereby influencing the future. All one can do is understand the past, prevent known flaws in the system from artificially creating undue risk in the future and hope that none of us lives through another Black Swan event in our investing lifetimes.
 
We are not dealing with a serious thinker or student of macro and predictive theories. All one has to do to reveal the flaw in predicting the future is read The Black Swan. As for accuracy in predictions, if a model was created which could predict the future accurately and reliably, it would influence the future for those people who had access to this model. By knowing the future, a person today could make decisions that predict it for their own benefit thereby influencing the future. All one can do is understand the past, prevent known flaws in the system from artificially creating undue risk in the future and hope that none of us lives through another Black Swan event in our investing lifetimes.

Taleb's criticism of forecasting is congruent in the context of financial markets, but it is incredibly useless with regards to many macroeconomic variables. We actually can produce rather impressive forecasts for macroeconomic aggregates such as employment and industrial production, just as we can do rather well with unemployment, housing starts, and inflation. Some of my own research suggests that estimating a nonlinear variant of a latent factor model using either kernel ridge regression or random forests is extremely good, especially at longer horizons (9, 12 and 24 months). We also found out that these nonlinear models have their biggest edge over simpler methods during times of rapid nonfinancial deleveraging, housing booms, tight credit conditions, and low-interest-rate environments. The only real annoying part with these methods is that you know they work well, but you cannot interpret their output. It's the number one reason machine learning is not more heavily used by central banks, for example. It's also part of the value-added by our paper.

The key point here is that if I try to evaluate how well forecasting models perform, it's incredibly hard to outperform some variants of a random walk for prices in equity markets. However, if you take a very long horizon, you'll beat that model in the currency market using structural macroeconomic models. That works across many currency pairs and over many time periods. Clearly, there is a problem with Taleb's comment: the problem is that Taleb is an options trader. When you look at data he often used in his work, the comment seems legitimate empirically and it also makes sense economically because people trying to capitalize on arbitrage would presumably eat away at most easily spotted regularities, insofar as things like transaction costs and liquidity issues do not forbid it. It also happens to be the case that our theories do not work well with financial data, save for the informal insight of the absence of arbitrage.


Lastly, a subtle point may be made with regards to knowledge of the underlying model of reality: your comment is almost always false. In economic models, agents are assumed to know the true model of the economy. This true model accounts for this knowledge, as well as their behavior. They are also assumed to take advantage of all the opportunities they face, in different ways and according to their preferences. Those things do not lead the model to become false. The parable you have in mind, however, makes sense in a specific context: financial markets and the existence of arbitrage.

If people try to take advantage of their knowledge and they know what is going on, how could an arbitrage opportunity exist? If a model could predict asset prices, its widespread use would invalidate it, as you point out, because people would presumably push prices in the opposite direction the model predicted by trying to take advantage of them. This is why most economic models enforce the efficient market hypothesis: mispricing can only exist if something prevents people from killing them by using them for profit. The parable, in other words, explains the efficient market hypothesis of Eugene Fama by telling you something doesn't make sense in that context. However, how do you profit from knowing the unemployment rate is likely to be close to 0.04 on average in the next 3 months? It's unclear how knowing that would push the unemployment rate far from that target value.
 
Then you are advocating that the existing monetary policies of the entire world gets thrown down the toilet? Do you realize that MMT merely describes what is, it rarely ventures into what ought.
LOL, sorry, no, not chasing you down that rabbit hole.
 
Then you are advocating that the existing monetary policies of the entire world gets thrown down the toilet? Do you realize that MMT merely describes what is, it rarely ventures into what ought.
LOL, sorry, no, not chasing you down that rabbit hole.
 
What about humans? Or better yet, how about air? You can't have a boom and resulting crash without humans or air! :lamo

Actually yes. Actually that's a main element when it comes to predicting economic behavior. In fact..its really the study of economics... the behavior of humans. What motivates a human to decide to save money.. or motivates them to take out a loan they can't afford. Recognizing the human behavior is a HUGE factor in understanding the mortgage crisis. And in predicting future crisis. You are absolutely right Kush... the Human element is a huge factor and in reality is probably the determining factor.
 
Actually yes. Actually that's a main element when it comes to predicting economic behavior. In fact..its really the study of economics... the behavior of humans. What motivates a human to decide to save money.. or motivates them to take out a loan they can't afford. Recognizing the human behavior is a HUGE factor in understanding the mortgage crisis. And in predicting future crisis. You are absolutely right Kush... the Human element is a huge factor and in reality is probably the determining factor.

Yep. Remove air and we can eliminate the human element altogether.
 
I can see that you really have not spent any time listening or learning about MMT or you would not have posted this conclusion. Traditional economics misses the truth about money and macro policy because it ignores what is truly going on. If you pass right by the fundamentals of a financial system and go straight to predetermined outcomes, how can anyone have faith that these outcomes are based upon a solid foundation? MMT is shaking up the economics of the world because it challenges the lack of foundations in traditional macro. What ought to be is different then what is. If an economic theory starts with what ought to be and then looks for what is in order to justify its biases, then it is not economics, it is an ideology. This is why so many consider Mizes and Hayek and Ayn Rand to be quacks, they are rarely taken seriously.

Pooh. MMT is "shaking up the economics world".... That's laughable. Its simply a rehash of how a fiat money system works. Its been packaged in a bow and presented as "something revolutionary"... and the only people that think its revolutionary.. are the economists trying to sell books and speaking engagements on it and laymen like yourself and John. that didn't know how our fiat currency works.

It has no predictive value. It really has no value at all even in a macro sense. And frankly, its appeal to folks like yourself and definitely John here is the ideology of "the government can deficit spend without consequences (well.well accept hyperinflation which never happens anyway").

Sorry man.. but if you think that MMT is some groundshaking economic theory... you are sadly mistaken.
 
Yep. Remove air and we can eliminate the human element altogether.

that would work.. but I would suggest we don't.

Hey.. I get it.. you don't want to have an actual discussion of economics. that's okay. I get that you want to try and see everything from your pet theory.. because it fits your ideology.
 
I know, this is an aside, but this post made me laugh out loud. "DHS, ICE and CBP all have "acting directors" because Trump hasn't nominated anyone. They can all be replaced at will, so of course whatever the boss says. If it was a priority, you'd think he'd put some energy into it. That you fell for the con is stupendous.

"Some energy into it" ha ha
Reality doesn't hurt, try some.
 
Are you saying that fractional reserve banking by definition leads to collapse or recession? T.
Nope. I am not saying by definition it leads to collapse or recession. In an of itself no it doesn't. However.. combined with the human element regarding greed/politics etc? I could see how it would be argued that it does.
No.. I would say that our monetary system is inherently risky. There is inherent risk that must be recognized with our money system in particular when it comes to the creation of money or the potential injection of money into the system. . Its basically like there is inherent risk in giving keys to the car to the kid. 9 times out of 10 using the car does nothing. But there is always potential for a devastating crash. Doesn't mean that we should give up the car. or everyone should ride bicycles. But there must be recognition of the potential hazard of money creation/injecting money into the system. That largest hazard is creating a temporary boom.. followed by a crash.

( though we have had at least one recessions because the fed raised rates because of fears of inflation and ended up causing a recession ).

You and John.. seem to have no recognition of these hazards. In your philosophy.. there is no potential negative consequence from say the government deficit spending (injection money into the economy)...other than "hyperinflation". and even then..you don't believe hyperinflation can happen.

Now.. the point I have been making is.. the boom and bust cycle with the mortgage crisis.. happened because frankly.. people.. for whatever reason.. fraud if you want to say it.. or whatever... had access to money. And more mortgage than they were able to afford based on what I would consider real market conditions (actual wage income).

People for a variety of reasons were bad actors with that access.

Now.. if the government does lets say huge amounts of deficit spending.. here is another opportunity for a boom..and then another crash. But the potential IS there if there are bad actors. You don't seem to realize that huge amounts of deficit spending.. in the presence of "bad actors".. could lead to another boom and crash... without any hyperinflation.

The problem is that you are ONLY looking at economics from a macro point of view. And that's not the entirety of economics. In fact.. you don't seem to understand.. and definitely neither does John..that the macroeconomics AND microeconomics.. are interdependent.
 
america complains they are broke but instead we spend all the money in the wrong places, giving money to other countries, but instead of helping our own people i thought thats what we were trying to do "america first" we spend so much in the military and scared that if we take 1 dollar out that we will be defenseless, we dont have enough money but we have enough for a wall?

Well, two things...

1) The US budget is around $4 trillion. The Wall would amount to 0.6% of the budget

2) The money for the wall is coming out of the DOD budget.
 
america complains they are broke but instead we spend all the money in the wrong places, giving money to other countries, but instead of helping our own people i thought thats what we were trying to do "america first" we spend so much in the military and scared that if we take 1 dollar out that we will be defenseless, we dont have enough money but we have enough for a wall?

I don't agree with the amount we spend on defense, but it's a bit of one dimensional chess to imply that defense spending isn't "helping our own people."

For one thing, it's a massive form of wealth redistribution, the big difference between it and other forms being that people actually have to do something to benefit from it.
 
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