Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 17 of 17

Thread: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

  1. #11
    Sage
    MrWonka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Last Seen
    10-11-19 @ 03:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    7,797

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    I guess that's why they try to help the short stack by not making them pay ANY income taxes.

    But that analogy isn't accurate. In a poker game- if one guy wins, the other loses . By definition. The economy is not like that. Typically if the big stack guy makes out, so does the small stack guy.
    False. 100% false. That couldn't be more false. This is the core delusion of the right. Capitalism is about competition, and if one person is able to provide a good or service that leaves someone else who could have provided it high and dry. The housing example is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. The additional tax cuts to the wealthy allow them to buy up more property driving up the costs so that the poor can't compete. The same way a big stack in poker might raise the pot so high that a poor person can't afford to play. In fact it's even worse because in poker a small stack with a big hand can still go all in even if they can't match the raise. In this scenario they cannot.

    The poor person then gets stuck paying the rich landlord rent which basically just covers the rich landlords mortgage. The rich landlord essentially gets a house for free paid for by the renter whose only renting because he can't afford a down payment because he's paying astronomical rent.

    But let's look at an example of a business with employees like a restaurant. You see a McDonald's or a Subway open up and hire workers and think it's a wealthy person creating jobs. You are wrong. The jobs are created by the demand for the good. People are hungry and need food. That is what created the jobs. The person who opened the restaurant simply filled the demand that was already there. So why was it a wealthy person that filled the demand and not a middle class person? Why didn't the middle class person see the opportunity and open their own restaurant? Is it because they're not smart enough to recognize the demand? No, it's because they can't afford to. They're not in good enough financial shape to take such a risk. They'd have to borrow the money to build the restaurant or open up the space.

    As income inequality becomes worse and worse it is the wealthy who are the only ones with the capital necessary to start a business. The middle class have no choice, but to work for someone else. They can't afford the start up costs, and the only way they could would be to borrow the money with interest from the wealthy because they're the only ones with the wealth to start a business they just keep getting exponentially richer.

    You see the wealthy as some kind of hero for starting a business and giving you a job, but the reason they're the ones starting the business and not you is because they're the only ones who can afford to, and the reason they're the only ones who can afford to is because they're using the wealth they already have to consolidate more wealth and cut off your other avenues of economic advancement.

    It's exactly like a poker game. The big stacks can raise the pot and force the small stacks to either fold or risk everything in order to try and compete. The big stakes on the other hand can afford to play almost every pot, and even if they don't have the best hand to start with they can see an extra card and hope they get lucky and if they don't they just use their wealth to push the smaller hands out.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Job creation and wages are up.
    Not because of Tax Cuts, and they are still no where even close to where they were before Ronald Reagan.
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

  2. #12
    Sage
    MrWonka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Last Seen
    10-11-19 @ 03:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    7,797

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Shareholders get the money from companies with no compelling projects for future growth, and get to invest it in the next Apple or Amazon,
    Is that why the S&P 500 was negative in 2018?

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    says Rob Arnott, chief of Research Affiliates, a firm that oversees investment strategies for $170 billion in mutual funds and ETFs.
    WOW!!! Color Me Shocked!!!! You're telling me that a rich asshole who massively benefited from these tax cuts has convinced himself and wants to convince you that they'll be good for everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    the venture capital community raises to launch a Facebook or Snap
    Except they don't know who that is, but it doesn't matter because they have so much money they just throw it at anybody with a Computer Science degree which is what caused the .com bubble. When .com's became a bit more risky they turned to old reliable. They bought up real estate like it was going out of style building houses like crazy and borrowing money to anyone and everyone at ridiculously high rates assuming that even if the borrowers couldn't pay them back they'd just foreclose and then resell the house at an even bigger profit.

    Here's an idea. How about instead of a handful venture capitalists playing roulette we just tax them, and use the money to pay off the student loans of all those Computer Scientists so they don't need Venture Capital to start their own companies?

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    It’s the cash distributed by a P&G or GM that, through this fluid ecosystem, funds expansion in fast-growers hungry for capital,
    But why are they hungry for capital in the first place? Why does it have to be private venture capitalists deciding who gets it? Here's an idea, how about we just continue taxing the wealthy at a higher rate and then offer small business loans directly from the government with no expectation of a high rate of return on those investments. Let the people who actually earned the money keep it instead of having to pay it back to venture capitalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    When those young companies hit their stride, they tend to generate the extra-robust sales and profits per worker. Put simply, shareholders’ freedom to direct cash to its highest and best use drives productivity, and it’s rising productivity that swells paychecks.
    Again, I ask you...why do we need shareholders to direct cash? Wealthy individuals direct the money to those who benefit the individuals not society. If society as a whole directs the money they can direct it to those who benefit society as a whole.

    You mention Facebook or Snapchat. Do either of those things really improve anybodies lives that much? A lot of people use them, and their very profitable, but do they really benefit society that much or do they just make a handful people who are already wealthy just insanely rich?
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

  3. #13
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:40 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,927

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    False. 100% false. That couldn't be more false. This is the core delusion of the right. Capitalism is about competition, and if one person is able to provide a good or service that leaves someone else who could have provided it high and dry. Thagan.
    Couldn't be more true. If it were a zero sum game , GDP wouldn't grow. And it does. The pie gets bigger.

    The other stuff you said is just capitalism at work. The superior company wins out over the inferior one. Surely you aren't suggesting taxing the superior company more to help the inferior one??

    "You see the wealthy as some kind of hero for starting a business and giving you a job"

    I see entreprenuers as some kind of hero for giving me job . Not all of them are wealthy but they GET wealthy if they are good.
    And they are more likely to suced in a low tax environment.
    Low tax environment-> company grows> Company hires more.( aka trickle down)

    simple logic

  4. #14
    Sage
    MrWonka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Last Seen
    10-11-19 @ 03:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    7,797

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
    First off the economy is growing at a far greater rate.
    False. Still hasn't topped 3%. Growth was roughly the same under Obama even while he was reducing our deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
    The stock market is doing just fine, still almost up 40% from the day Trump was elected
    It was negative in the first full year of his Tax cuts and his trade war. Obama's policies were still in place for a year after Trump was elected. It's after Trump's policies were implemented that the market cooled off. In the first two years after Obama's economic policies were implemented the stock market doubled. That's a 100% increase. 100% > 40%.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
    UP almost 3000 points since January 2.
    Because it crashed so badly in December it had no place to go but up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
    Deficits are not "through the roof - CBO is predicting a deficit this year that will be less the 4 of the 8 deficits Obama recorded.
    Obama was dealing with a Recession, two wars in the Middle east, and Bush's tax cuts in his first four years in office. All things problems caused by the previous Republican which he ended. Obama needed economic stimulus in order to get the economy headed back in the right direction, but because he was a fiscally responsible president he understood that once the economy got back on it's feet we needed to dial back the stimulus and start paying down our debts. Deficits in a recession make sense in order to get us out, but once we're out a deficit is reckless and irresponsible. Running a deficit when you already have a strong economy is how you create a bubble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullseye View Post
    Oh, and revenue is up for the year. Problem as always is spending.
    Revenue and spending always increase unless there is a recession. They're supposed to and we know this. Republicans voluntarily reduced our revenue without touching spending. They chose the deficits. They told us that the economic boost from the tax cuts would cause growth so high it would make up the difference. As always it did not. Unless you're in a recession where you actually need stimulus if you don't have the votes to cut spending then you are reckless and irresponsible if you cut revenue an incur more debt.
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

  5. #15
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:40 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,927

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    LOL- is there anything you CAN"t put a negative spin on?

    We all know good economic news for the Country is bad for Democrats so it's your sworn duty as a loyal party member to attack the economy but do you have to be so obvious about it?
    Last edited by KLATTU; 05-15-19 at 04:43 PM.

  6. #16
    Conservatarian Guru
    Bullseye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    San Diego
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    13,813

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    False. Still hasn't topped 3%. Growth was roughly the same under Obama even while he was reducing our deficits.
    Are you paying attention? We just range up a 3.2% GDP growth. The only deficits Obama reduced were the four trillion dollar deficits HE RANG UP.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka
    It was negative in the first full year of his Tax cuts and his trade war. Obama's policies were still in place for a year after Trump was elected. It's after Trump's policies were implemented that the market cooled off. In the first two years after Obama's economic policies were implemented the stock market doubled. That's a 100% increase. 100% > 40%.
    Uh, no. Total bull****. The market was moving sideways when trump took over and it jumped immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonka

    Because it crashed so badly in December it had no place to go but up.
    But that's not what you said. You said it was down for the year - total lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka
    Obama was dealing with a Recession, two wars in the Middle east, and Bush's tax cuts in his first four years in office. All things problems caused by the previous Republican which he ended. Obama needed economic stimulus in order to get the economy headed back in the right direction, but because he was a fiscally responsible president he understood that once the economy got back on it's feet we needed to dial back the stimulus and start paying down our debts. Deficits in a recession make sense in order to get us out, but once we're out a deficit is reckless and irresponsible. Running a deficit when you already have a strong economy is how you create a bubble.
    LOL, all this bull**** aside, Obama oversaw the worst recovery since WW II and the economy he turned over was the economy of 2016 not 2009. An economy that never even reached 2% GDP growth.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka
    Revenue and spending always increase unless there is a recession. They're supposed to and we know this. Republicans voluntarily reduced our revenue without touching spending.
    And yet CBO says revenues are up. Do you ever fact check anything before you spew your love songs to Obama?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka
    chose the deficits. They told us that the economic boost from the tax cuts would cause growth so high it would make up the difference. As always it did not. Unless you're in a recession where you actually need stimulus if you don't have the votes to cut spending then you are reckless and irresponsible if you cut revenue an incur more debt.
    LOL, where do you come up with this trash? The economy is booming, wages are booming, jobs are being created so fast we can even fill them all.
    State of Liberalism Progress Report
    1961: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country" - JFK
    2019: Where's my free stuff!

  7. #17
    Sage
    MrWonka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Last Seen
    10-11-19 @ 03:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    7,797

    Re: Trump’s policies are doing the exact opposite of what Democrats warned

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Couldn't be more true. If it were a zero sum game , GDP wouldn't grow. And it does. The pie gets bigger.
    Wow! That has got do be the dumbest, least economically intelligent statement I have ever heard. Do you even know what the word Gross means in this context? Did you even know that's what the G stood for?

    First, as long as the population increases the GDP will increase along with it over time.

    Second, gross domestic product means the total of everyone's product. So if you have 5 people who make $2, $2, $2, $2, $2 your gross is $10. If the next year you have 6 people who earn $1, $1, $1, $1, $2, $6 your gross is $12. While that is a higher number it is very clear that four people lost, 1 stayed the same, and the 6th won. The increase in GDP did not come from "everyone" making more money.

    Third, even if everyone does make a little bit more money you have to weight that against inflation. If 60% of the country sees 2% wage growth, but the other 40% drive inflation up to 3% it means that the 60% are actually in worse financial shape than they were even if they're making more money.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    The superior company wins out over the inferior one.
    Except the company isn't superior because it's actually a better company. It's a better company because it had more money to start with.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Surely you aren't suggesting taxing the superior company more to help the inferior one??
    It has nothing to do with superior or inferior, it's about wealthy versus poor. I'm saying tax the wealthier company to prevent it from consolidating more power and wealth thus preventing competition.

    By your logic we should give the Super Bowl Winner the 1st over all draft pick. In professional sports leagues a Salary Cap improves competition it doesn't hinder it. The Yankees, Red Sox and Dodgers aren't better than everyone because they have better management. They're better because they have a bigger bankroll to start with just like a poker tournament. They've been around longer and they're in bigger markets. The bankroll gives them the advantage not the quality of their ownership, and their current ownership did little to generate their current bankroll.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    I see entrepreneurs as some kind of hero for giving me job.
    Slave owners gave people jobs too. They fed their slaves, gave them a bed and a log for the fire, and medical treatment when they needed it. The slave owners didn't do it because it was good for the slaves, they did it because it was good for themselves. Without the slave owners though they could have divided the plantation up among all the slaves and they could have been their own bosses.

    You're only focusing on the paycheck you get from your boss, but you're not thinking about the paycheck you could make for yourself if your boss wasn't using his wealthy to restrict your other choices. You may have more choices today than slaves had in the day, but it's still not as many options as you deserve.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    And they are more likely to suced in a low tax environment.
    False. Blue liberal states with the highest income taxes actually have the highest wages and the most businesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLATTU View Post
    Low tax environment-> company grows> Company hires more.( aka trickle down) simple logic
    Not even remotely logical. He're real logic for you...

    High tax environment -> government invests in your education ->covers your health care-> Improves your quality of life and frees up more money for you to start your own business.

    Access Denied

    Out of the top ten best states in the country 8 voted for Obama twice.

    Out of the bottom ten worst states all but 1 voted for Trump.

    Sort by Economy...

    6 out of the top 10 voted for Obama twice.

    8 out of the bottom 10 voted for Trump.
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •