Current US Federal Budget Deficit

Conservative said:

Republicans also allowed the taxpayers to keep more of what they earn and that has stimulated the economic activity that created 2.9 million more people employed in December 2018 vs. December 2017. You have no understanding as to the components of GDP or even the taxes you pay or their purpose still refusing to apologize for being wrong about the line items in the deficit and the reality that trillions have been "stolen" from SS and Medicare that was never repaid.

the real issue continues to be your lack of understanding of the budget, the line items in the budget and even of basic civics as to how the budget process works. Further you want to be believe what the left tells you and believe that spending in the name of compassion is the answer to all our problems and can be generated by raising taxes on the rich

Click to expand...

The real issue is Trump and Republicans in the last Congress decided to change the revenue line for the next several years, upped the spending line for the next several years and as such took us the wrong direction in terms of deficits and additions to debt at this point in the economic cycle. Your own links and “evidence” all tell us this without exception.

Trump and Republicans in the last Congress literally accelerated additions to Total Debt at a time we did not need to.

Then you both turn around and start asking questions about paying down the debt, or feeding us bull**** about the cost of debt being the only reason for our deficits, or trying to blame the Fed, or blaming liberals, or what ever else when in actuality it was your beloved Trump and Republicans added to the problem. Your own treasury reports do not lie.

Deficit trends are going the wrong direction, neither one of you has an answer for that, and you both talk about liberals not understanding the budget. Both shocking and sad how you both try to move the debate to something else when Trump and Republicans in the last Congress added to deficits and are adding to Total Debt. In the past 2 years we have broken debt auction after auction.

Continues to make you look extremely foolish and zeros out what little credibility you had left (assuming there was any to start with.)

Riverside said:

HORSEHOCKEY.

They haven't kept more of what they earned, they just took it from their children and grandchildren.

Click to expand...

So you believe you are entitled to what they earn?? Taking from their children and grandchildren? Where did you get your information and what federal social program has ever been cut because of revenue shortfalls?

OrphanSlug said:

The real issue is Trump and Republicans in the last Congress decided to change the revenue line for the next several years, upped the spending line for the next several years and as such took us the wrong direction in terms of deficits and additions to debt at this point in the economic cycle. Your own links and “evidence” all tell us this without exception.

Trump and Republicans in the last Congress literally accelerated additions to Total Debt at a time we did not need to.

Then you both turn around and start asking questions about paying down the debt, or feeding us bull**** about the cost of debt being the only reason for our deficits, or trying to blame the Fed, or blaming liberals, or what ever else when in actuality it was your beloved Trump and Republicans added to the problem. Your own treasury reports do not lie.

Deficit trends are going the wrong direction, neither one of you has an answer for that, and you both talk about liberals not understanding the budget. Both shocking and sad how you both try to move the debate to something else when Trump and Republicans in the last Congress added to deficits and are adding to Total Debt. In the past 2 years we have broken debt auction after auction.

Continues to make you look extremely foolish and zeros out what little credibility you had left (assuming there was any to start with.)

Click to expand...

What the hell are you talking about, changing the line items in the budget?? I gave you the Treasury information and the only line items changed were those created by Congress like the Bureau of homeland security. You still don't get it and never will. Discretionary budget is funded by FIT, entitlement funding(Medicare and SS) are funded by FICA, Infrastructure funded by Excise taxes.

The problem continues to be entitlement spending and the reality that over the years bureaucrats have taken trillions out of the fund and only repaid what was paid out in monthly benefits not the total amount taken but now more is going out than coming in. Are you telling me that had the money not been "borrowed" there wouldn't be enough to meet the demand?

Conservative said:

So you believe you are entitled to what they earn?? Taking from their children and grandchildren? Where did you get your information and what federal social program has ever been cut because of revenue shortfalls?

Click to expand...

Who do you think is going to repay the borrowed money? Our great-grandparents?

Riverside said:

Who do you think is going to repay the borrowed money? Our great-grandparents?

Click to expand...

His view of macro is that taxes pay for government expenses and that eventually taxpayers will pay for accumulated debts. Its an outdated view of macro from the Gold backed securities era. He simply fails to grasp the essence of modern banking systems which is that money is created to suit the needs of the economy. Taxes are collected to serve policy goals, heat up or slow down economies and to force us to use the dollar for most if not all transactions. He keeps harping about which bucket pays for which expenditure without fully grasping the fungibility of money. There is no use in bringing this dinosaur into the modern age.

Riverside said:

Who do you think is going to repay the borrowed money? Our great-grandparents?

Click to expand...

The taxpayers, mostly the rich are the ones who always pay the bills, 44% of the income earning Americans are paying ZERO in FIT

Vadinho said:

His view of macro is that taxes pay for government expenses and that eventually taxpayers will pay for accumulated debts. Its an outdated view of macro from the Gold backed securities era. He simply fails to grasp the essence of modern banking systems which is that money is created to suit the needs of the economy. Taxes are collected to serve policy goals, heat up or slow down economies and to force us to use the dollar for most if not all transactions. He keeps harping about which bucket pays for which expenditure without fully grasping the fungibility of money. There is no use in bringing this dinosaur into the modern age.

Click to expand...

I suggest going back to school, learning the taxes you pay and their purpose which obviously you don't understand. Waiting for how 1.8 trillion in FIT and Corporate tax revenue to pay for the 1.2 trillion in discretionary spending caused the 2018 deficit? You like most liberals bought into the unified budget, ignore completely how much money has been "borrowed" from SS that is now required to fund retirees so your solution is get the rich to pay for it. Fact the rich will never have the money to fund the liberal spending appetite.

Conservative said:

I suggest going back to school, learning the taxes you pay and their purpose which obviously you don't understand. Waiting for how 1.8 trillion in FIT and Corporate tax revenue to pay for the 1.2 trillion in discretionary spending caused the 2018 deficit? You like most liberals bought into the unified budget, ignore completely how much money has been "borrowed" from SS that is now required to fund retirees so your solution is get the rich to pay for it. Fact the rich will never have the money to fund the liberal spending appetite.

Click to expand...

As evidence, consider Taxes for Revenue Are Obsolete, a speech given by New York Fed chair Beardsley Ruml to the American Bar Association in 1943, explaining the lessons of war spending for tax policy:

Ruml says that taxes serve four purposes:

1. As an instrument of fiscal policy to help stabilize the purchasing power of the dollar;

2. To express public policy in the distribution of wealth and of income, as in the case of the progressive income and estate taxes;

3. To express public policy in subsidizing or in penalizing various industries and economic groups;

4. To isolate and assess directly the costs of certain national benefits, such as highways and social security.

It was true in 43 and its still true in 2019. As with most conservative dogma, your views on money are antiquated gibberish.

Conservative said:

The taxpayers, mostly the rich are the ones who always pay the bills, 44% of the income earning Americans are paying ZERO in FIT

Click to expand...

Yes, but not the taxpayers that borrowed the money. It will be their (our) descendants.

Vadinho said:

As evidence, consider Taxes for Revenue Are Obsolete, a speech given by New York Fed chair Beardsley Ruml to the American Bar Association in 1943, explaining the lessons of war spending for tax policy:

Ruml says that taxes serve four purposes:

1. As an instrument of fiscal policy to help stabilize the purchasing power of the dollar;

2. To express public policy in the distribution of wealth and of income, as in the case of the progressive income and estate taxes;

3. To express public policy in subsidizing or in penalizing various industries and economic groups;

4. To isolate and assess directly the costs of certain national benefits, such as highways and social security.

It was true in 43 and its still true in 2019. As with most conservative dogma, your views on money are antiquated gibberish.

Click to expand...

Again still not answering the question as to what FIT and Corporate taxes were created to fund? Also apparent no understanding of what FICA, Excise taxes fund or why SS and Medicare shortfall should be funded by FIT and Corporate income tax increases??

Riverside said:

Yes, but not the taxpayers that borrowed the money. It will be their (our) descendants.

Click to expand...

So what taxpayers borrowed money from the SS and Medicare Trust fund? Taxpayers don't borrow money from the federal gov't, bureaucrats borrow from the tax revenue received from the Federal Gov't. I fear for our country when I see people like you posting as you do, totally ignorant of the taxes you pay or their purpose. This is an indictment against the education system in this country today and how easy it is to be indoctrinated by the left.

Riverside said:

Yes, but not the taxpayers that borrowed the money. It will be their (our) descendants.

Click to expand...

It appears that we are a nation filled with people who think the government that issues currency must get that currency back in order to pay for what it spends its own currency on. Imagine if you had a printing press in your basement and everything you bought could be paid for legally by using that printing press. Would you ever run out of money? What would be the point of collecting the money you created just so you could spend it? You obviously can make money at will so why bother to collect it? Well, you may have ideas about encouraging the spending habits of people or want to destroy money or wealth by collecting it in certain measures. Or you might want to take money out of the system faster then you create more money. This is how our money system works and for the life of me, I have no idea why economics departments fail to teach us the truth about money.

Vadinho said:

It appears that we are a nation filled with people who think the government that issues currency must get that currency back in order to pay for what it spends its own currency on. Imagine if you had a printing press in your basement and everything you bought could be paid for legally by using that printing press. Would you ever run out of money? What would be the point of collecting the money you created just so you could spend it? You obviously can make money at will so why bother to collect it? Well, you may have ideas about encouraging the spending habits of people or want to destroy money or wealth by collecting it in certain measures. Or you might want to take money out of the system faster then you create more money. This is how our money system works and for the life of me, I have no idea why economics departments fail to teach us the truth about money.

Click to expand...

Or about basic civics along with the taxes you pay and their purpose!

Conservative said:

Again still not answering the question as to what FIT and Corporate taxes were created to fund? Also apparent no understanding of what FICA, Excise taxes fund or why SS and Medicare shortfall should be funded by FIT and Corporate income tax increases??

Click to expand...

They were created to fund whatever Congress decides to fund via taxes collected for purposes of political expediency or transparency. It is silly to think that taxes have been paying for government expenditures completely, other then a few years in the 1800s, we have always run a deficit and the delta was made up by issuing currency or notes. You keep failing to grasp the enormity of the issue. Your buddy Trump is actually following Keynesian/MMT principles as we speak. The only difference between left and right is prioritization of where the government spends, taxes or invests. The GOP gives breaks to the rich and corporations, the left gives breaks to the little guy and unfortunately gives breaks to corporations as well. Pick your priorities but lets not kid ourselves about taxes paying for government. Taxes are a way to reward or punish economic activity.

Vadinho said:

They were created to fund whatever Congress decides to fund via taxes collected for purposes of political expediency or transparency. It is silly to think that taxes have been paying for government expenditures completely, other then a few years in the 1800s, we have always run a deficit and the delta was made up by issuing currency or notes. You keep failing to grasp the enormity of the issue. Your buddy Trump is actually following Keynesian/MMT principles as we speak. The only difference between left and right is prioritization of where the government spends, taxes or invests. The GOP gives breaks to the rich and corporations, the left gives breaks to the little guy and unfortunately gives breaks to corporations as well. Pick your priorities but lets not kid ourselves about taxes paying for government. Taxes are a way to reward or punish economic activity.

Click to expand...

FICA was created to fund SS and Medicare, LBJ and a Democratic Congress put that money into the general fund so they could borrow from it. That money that was borrowed left a hole in the trust fund that is now creating the deficit we had in 2018 and because people like you ignore that reality, you continue to promote FIT filling the gap when that was never the intent! Solve the entitlement problem before raising taxes on the people who pay 40% of those taxes(FIT). The basic difference between the left and the right are two fold, we understand what taxes we pay and their purpose and number two we understand the true role of the state and local governments which apparently you don't

Conservative said:

FICA was created to fund SS and Medicare, LBJ and a Democratic Congress put that money into the general fund so they could borrow from it. That money that was borrowed left a hole in the trust fund that is now creating the deficit we had in 2018 and because people like you ignore that reality, you continue to promote FIT filling the gap when that was never the intent! Solve the entitlement problem before raising taxes on the people who pay 40% of those taxes(FIT). The basic difference between the left and the right are two fold, we understand what taxes we pay and their purpose and number two we understand the true role of the state and local governments which apparently you don't

Click to expand...

Money is fungible, what man created, man can change. These are artificial buckets, nothing more. Within each bucket is the power to create money out of thin air to pay for any shortfalls between taxes in and spending out. At some point in your life you will have to grasp the fundamental truths about our financial system. Howling at the moon is a waste of your time.

Conservative said:

That money that was borrowed left a hole in the trust fund that is now creating the deficit we had in 2018

Click to expand...

Once again, you spout lies to push a partisan agenda. When confronted about this type of behavior, all that you offer is deflection, personal attacks, and more partisan driven lies.

Vadinho said:

Money is fungible, what man created, man can change. These are artificial buckets, nothing more. Within each bucket is the power to create money out of thin air to pay for any shortfalls between taxes in and spending out. At some point in your life you will have to grasp the fundamental truths about our financial system. Howling at the moon is a waste of your time.

Click to expand...

what you fail to recognize is that Congress established taxes to pay for specific purposes and then when LBJ put all the money into the general fund creating the unified budget you bought the rhetoric and concept thus have no problem letting the FIT payers to filled the hole created by the bureaucrats spending your SS and Medicare contributions

Kushinator said:

Once again, you spout lies to push a partisan agenda. When confronted about this type of behavior, all that you offer is deflection, personal attacks, and more partisan driven lies.

Click to expand...

Nice spin I asked how much money has been contributed to SS and Medicare since inception and you give me the last year, typical liberal distortion and diversion from the question raised. How you coming on explaining the purpose of FIT and how FIT and Corporate revenue of approximately 1.8 trillion in 2018 to fund the 1.2 trillion dollar discretionary spending caused the 2018 deficit?

Like most liberals the past is irrelevant and the abuses of the past are covered up by forcing rich people to pony up more money to fund the shortfall in SS, Medicare, and debt service of which most has come from the interest on the SS and Medicare "borrowing!!

Conservative said:

Nice spin I asked how much money has been contributed to SS and Medicare since inception and you give me the last year, typical liberal distortion and diversion from the question raised.

Click to expand...

You didn't ask anything of the sort.

Conservative said:

That money that was borrowed left a hole in the trust fund that is now creating the deficit we had in 2018

Click to expand...

Which is a lie. SS contributions bring in more money to the Treasury than SS outflows. Further deflection doesn't negate your intrepid dishonesty.

Kushinator said:

You didn't ask anything of the sort.



Which is a lie. SS contributions bring in more money to the Treasury than SS outflows. Further deflection doesn't negate your intrepid dishonesty.

Click to expand...

I have posted this request many times in this forum probably often to you but as usual you run when challenged. SS does bring in more than outflow and had it not been borrowed there would be enough to fund retirees without borrowing, printing or raising taxes and that remains the point.

Conservative said:

I have posted this request many times in this forum

Click to expand...

Your attempts to play taskmaster do not negate from your inability to make a coherent point. The data is available... you are more than welcome to do your own work.

SS does bring in more than outflow and had it not been borrowed there would be enough to fund retirees without borrowing, printing or raising taxes and that remains the point.

Click to expand...

Social Security contributions to the deficit have not yet materialized, as was stated... the inflow still exceeds the outflow. There will become a point where the trust fund will require repayment from the Treasury to make payments... but we have not crossed this line, and therefore your point is moot.

The 2018 deficit had nothing to do with SS, but was an instance of growing expenditures in the face of slowing receipts. Your lie stands.

Conservative said:

That money that was borrowed left a hole in the trust fund that is now creating the deficit we had in 2018 and because people like you ignore that reality.....

Click to expand...

Conservative said:

Or about basic civics along with the taxes you pay and their purpose!

Click to expand...

Their purpose is to fulfill the policy goals of the government. Not sure why you think this is some unknown secret, even Trump lovers know that tax cuts have a purpose, they give money away to rich people and take it from poor people.

99percenter said:

Of course. And despite that he created one of the greatest recoveries ever and killed the most wanted man in the world.

Click to expand...

I'm interested to know more about your insightful post.

I'll start with the latter insightful revelation first. I usually like to believe I am a rather well read person, but I had no idea that President Obama was on the raid that killed UBL. Wow! So, if you could fill us in on his heroic actions that night, as you obviously have information about it that has been largely under-reported. I had no idea he was part of the SEAL teams! Again, Wow.

As to your former revelation about President Obama overwatching the greatest economic recoveries ever, I'd also love to read more from you that substantiates this claim.

Of special note is how President Obama was able to overwatch this "greatest economic recoveries ever" without any economic growth that would match such a claim.

For an example, here are the list of recessions and recoveries since 1930
--Great Depression: 1934 to 1937 saw 10.8%, 8.9%, 12.9%, and 5.1% GDP growth.
--1937 Recession: 1939 saw a recovery of 8% even before WWII came to call.
--Post WWII Recession (1945-1947): 1948 saw GDP growth of 4.1%
--1949 Recession: 8.7% and 8% GDP growth in 1950 and 1951
--1954 Recession: 7.1% GDP growth the next year
--1960-1961 Recession: 6.1% GDP growth in 1962 and annual growth of 4.8% each year for the next eight years.
--1970 Recession: Economic growth in 1971 slowly grew at 3.3% but was over 5% for the next two years.
--1974-1975 Recession: 5.4% growth in 1976
--1980-1982 Recession: Followed by 4.6% growth in 1983 and 7.2% growth in 1984
--1991 Recession: 3.5% growth in 1992
--2001-2002 Recession: Slowest recovery so far with 2.9% in 2003 but 3.8% in 2004

Now, if history serves us right, we see that the economy has historically bounced back with nearly 4% economic growth within two years from when each economic crisis bottomed out. So, if you can help explain to me how this "greatest economic recovery" never had a single year of economic growth of 3% or greater? In fact, the average of the previous 4 years after the economy bottomed out, GDP growth averaged an anemic 2.05%.

And while you are at it, outside of the America Reinvestment Act, can you cite me a single pro-economic growth piece of legislation that President Obama overwatched that led to this "greatest economic recovery"?

Thanks again for bringing us these two incredible revelations.

Vadinho said:

...even Trump lovers know that tax cuts have a purpose, they give money away to rich people and take it from poor people.

Click to expand...

I'm learning so much by reading the forums today. Can you expand on the monetary mechanics of the part I highlighted in blue from your post?

If tax cuts are, by definition, the reduction in nominal rates that tax payers must pay to the government, then how does the government GIVE money to rich people through tax rates?

Likewise, if the only method that the government has to confiscate income or wealth is to tax it, how do tax cuts TAKE money from poor people, especially when most surveys of the IRS tax returns demonstrate that they pay very little in taxes. A 2016 survey identified that the bottom 50% of taxpayers paid only 3% of Federal Income Taxes.

Thanks for helping me out.