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Treasury will again borrow $1 trillion to pay for tax cuts, spending

and the dems years before that...

we can go back and forth forever

you want to blame Trump for something that has been an issue for decades is my point

let's put the blame squarely where it belongs...on our senators and congressman who cant seem to work together to do the nations work

The dems before Trump actually had reduction of deficits. Under Obama.. the defict was steadily shrinking.

Under Clinton..there was a balanced budget..
 
So you double down on blaming the GOP.

Okay. Have it your way.

Moving on...


Who else should get the blame here? The republicans had 2 years of control and they increased spending and they decreased taxes.. which has led to increased deficits.

Under the Obama administration, deficits were shrinking as the economy improved. They were shrinking because of removal of some of the tax cuts in the stimulus bill and because of reductions in the rate of spending growth or in some cases, outright decreases in spending.
 
Who else should get the blame here? The republicans had 2 years of control and they increased spending and they decreased taxes.. which has led to increased deficits.
.

Congress gets the blame. That includes Dems and Reps.

btw, you are either being dishonest or you are ignorant when you say that Reps controlled Congress for two years. They didn't.
 
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So you double down on blaming the GOP.

Okay. Have it your way.

Moving on...

And you double down excusing the GOP for passing, and Trump for signing the deficit busting tax cuts and the deficit busting spending increases.
 
And you double down excusing the GOP for passing, and Trump for signing the deficit busting tax cuts and the deficit busting spending increases.

No. I haven't.

I blame Congress...Dems and Reps for not going far enough.
 
For the 12 months ended March 2019, revenues were up $272 million or 0.008% over the prior 12 months. Spending was up by $132 billion, or 3%, which is a little faster than inflation. That's why revenues that don't keep pace with inflation increase the deficit, because spending will keep pace with inflation.
I prefer to compare fiscal year to fiscal year. Certain inflows and outflows are timed to coincide with the fiscal year. I rely on the monthly CBO reports which show how we're doing compared to where we were last year at this time.
 
and that 12 month period included April 2018, which is when most paid income taxes under the old rates.

Yep, April 2018 was +$54 billion, by far the biggest YOY increase. For 2018, February, March, May, June, July, August, September, November, December and January 2019 all saw revenues decline compared to the year earlier month.

The only positive months in 2018 were January (final estimates for 2017 under old law), April (tax filing due date for 2017), and October (final deadline for individual tax returns for 2017).

February 2019 is ahead of Feb. 2018, but still behind Feb 2017.

So, yeah, anyone saying the tax cuts increased revenue is ignorant or lying - it's really that simple. The TCJA reduced taxes versus the baseline by about $200 billion per year in the first few years.
 
No, it's not close enough. The benchmark is revenues without the tax cuts, and without them we could expect revenues to increase at some rate greater than inflation and population growth to account for real GDP growth.

And the vast majority of spending increases almost automatically with inflation at least. And SS and Medicare are growing faster because of the still retiring baby boomers. So spending is increasing faster than inflation and will for many years to come, so revenues can either keep pace or we get bigger deficits.

So, no, revenues that are barely positive, lagging inflation, lagging real economic growth, and lagging population growth aren't close enough to anything unless growing deficits each year is our goal.
And tax reductions had no effect on economic growth? Nothing other than tax cuts had any effect on revenues?
 
The thing is borrowing a **** ton of money and spending it on really anything domestically would ALSO CREATE JOBS, and could also benefit the vast majority of rich people! When you borrow money and spend it, that's the 'job creator.' Doesn't matter if you cut taxes to borrow or increase spending to borrow - it's the deficits that are the stimulus.
LOL, IF we BORROW on the magnitude of WW II adjusted for inflation and population growth that might happen. But then we'd have a tremendous debt service.
JasperL said:
This lie we're told that the only way to stimulate the economy is by running it through a bunch of rich people first is tiring as hell. It suits the donor class quite nicely, but there's no basis to this lie.
Who told you that lie?
 
Yep, April 2018 was +$54 billion, by far the biggest YOY increase. For 2018, February, March, May, June, July, August, September, November, December and January 2019 all saw revenues decline compared to the year earlier month.

The only positive months in 2018 were January (final estimates for 2017 under old law), April (tax filing due date for 2017), and October (final deadline for individual tax returns for 2017).

February 2019 is ahead of Feb. 2018, but still behind Feb 2017.

So, yeah, anyone saying the tax cuts increased revenue is ignorant or lying - it's really that simple. The TCJA reduced taxes versus the baseline by about $200 billion per year in the first few years.

I will not state that the tax cuts have increased revenue. I will say I don't know what the impact was or will be. This tax cut had many facets. Some could validly be argues have no real chance of helping revenues. That would be the cuts on the upper bracket. Most would agree that the increase in EITC will have a positive effect on our lowest earners. The most contentious part is the corporate cut IMO. I will put an incomplete on this one. The reality is we made building factories in America more competitive and thus should help. Not only for American companies but also foreign companies that sell into the U.S. market.

People who promise to increase these taxes are doing what they can to sabotage the cuts. No way someone can pit out a projection on a 20 year cash glow and P&L for a new plant in America using current rates. If someone sent me something with that in it it would be rejected and asked for a re-work. Corporations are not the CBO that blindly looks at current law and runs it through their model. That explanation would get you fired in the real world.
 
I prefer to compare fiscal year to fiscal year. Certain inflows and outflows are timed to coincide with the fiscal year. I rely on the monthly CBO reports which show how we're doing compared to where we were last year at this time.

I used a 12 month period, which takes into account those inflows and outflows at the beginning and end of the fiscal year. Bottom line is it doesn't matter what time period you look at, the tax cuts did reduce revenue compared to the baseline, they're lagging inflation, lagging economic growth, lagging population growth. So given lower revenues, and increased spending, deficits are going up as predicted. This is really simple stuff and there is no need to overthink it or misrepresent what the tax CUTS did. Tax cuts lower revenue, period, the end. TCJA was no exception.

FWIW, you can see any period you want, download it to Excel by month from 1981 through the current month, from this link:

Monthly Treasury Statement
 
I used a 12 month period, which takes into account those inflows and outflows at the beginning and end of the fiscal year. Bottom line is it doesn't matter what time period you look at, the tax cuts did reduce revenue compared to the baseline, they're lagging inflation, lagging economic growth, lagging population growth. So given lower revenues, and increased spending, deficits are going up as predicted. This is really simple stuff and there is no need to overthink it or misrepresent what the tax CUTS did. Tax cuts lower revenue, period, the end. TCJA was no exception.

FWIW, you can see any period you want, download it to Excel by month from 1981 through the current month, from this link:

Monthly Treasury Statement
Ok, I give up. Responding to the same mantras over and over is a waste of my (and your) time.
 
I will not state that the tax cuts have increased revenue. I will say I don't know what the impact was or will be.

I do and so does every legitimate economist, including conservative economists. There is no free lunch, no tax Santa Clause, and tax rate cuts reduce revenue. If we want to increase tax revenue, we raise tax rates, we don't cut them. The only possible exception is from rates approaching 70-80% and we're nowhere near those rates.

There's nothing wrong with tax cuts, but we cannot lie to ourselves and pretend that cutting rates doesn't ALSO require lower spending, or result in higher deficits. I don't know how in the world the GOP managed to convince a good part of the public in the existence of a fiscal free lunch, but it's just not true.

This tax cut had many facets. Some could validly be argues have no real chance of helping revenues. That would be the cuts on the upper bracket. Most would agree that the increase in EITC will have a positive effect on our lowest earners. The most contentious part is the corporate cut IMO. I will put an incomplete on this one. The reality is we made building factories in America more competitive and thus should help. Not only for American companies but also foreign companies that sell into the U.S. market.

I hope the lower tax rates increase competitiveness, and increase jobs in the U.S., but the fact is we can do that and the tax cuts STILL won't pay for themselves with higher revenues. They can be a good thing, bring back jobs, etc. and still lower corporate tax revenues!

People who promise to increase these taxes are doing what they can to sabotage the cuts. No way someone can pit out a projection on a 20 year cash glow and P&L for a new plant in America using current rates. If someone sent me something with that in it it would be rejected and asked for a re-work. Corporations are not the CBO that blindly looks at current law and runs it through their model. That explanation would get you fired in the real world.

I don't know if they're 'sabotaging' the tax cuts or not, but the bottom line is they're going to have to increase from here - current tax rates aren't sustainable. The GOP knows this - everyone knows this. The only political question is will the GOP succeed in blaming the Democrats WHEN taxes go back up. Probably....

And as far as projections - sure, of course no one can do that, but what will matter more to those projections to the company are interest rates, labor rates, world economy, demand, inflation, commodity and other input costs, and all those are as difficult to predict 20 years out as tax rates on income in the U.S.
 
Ok, I give up. Responding to the same mantras over and over is a waste of my (and your) time.

I sort of agree, but if you didn't claim many times in this thread that revenues were going UP, I wouldn't point out repeatedly that they went DOWN. I get tired of reading the same false narrative from you guys on the right.
 
Still waiting for the House and Senate to pass a balanced budget. Then they can start working on debt reduction.

Bet it will not happen within the next six years.
 
LOL, IF we BORROW on the magnitude of WW II adjusted for inflation and population growth that might happen. But then we'd have a tremendous debt service.

I'm talking about on the same magnitude as the tax cuts. If Pres. Hillary and a Democratic Congress passed a spending bill at the end of 2017 that dumped $200 billion in additional borrowed dollars into the economy each year for the next 4 years of her presidency, that would ALSO create jobs, goose the economy, increase demand, etc. That's basically what the TCJA does, and of course it is stimulus and it worked to some extent.

Who told you that lie?

You're implying it by crediting the tax cuts for jobs, etc.

Let's put it this way, if we paired the $1.5 trillion in tax cuts from TCJA over 10 years with $1.5 trillion in spending cuts, dollar for dollar, the stimulus from the tax cuts would be FAR, FAR, FAR less than we've seen so far, if not negative, because you'd be trading a bunch of rich people and the Fortune 500 getting a lot richer and mostly buying more stocks, versus taking a bunch of money out of the pockets of old people and the poor who immediately spend every dime coming their way directly into the local economy.
 
No. I haven't.

I blame Congress...Dems and Reps for not going far enough.

The "Dems" didn't pass unfunded tax cuts that will add $200 billion to the deficits for the next few years. Not a single "Dem" voted for those tax cuts, and the GOP needed ZERO Democratic votes to pass accompanying spending cuts, but didn't do so. So when the GOP has the House, Senate and WH and blows up the deficit, seems to me we can put the blame on the GOP, given they passed their budgets with no Democratic votes in favor.
 
Congress gets the blame. That includes Dems and Reps.

btw, you are either being dishonest or you are ignorant when you say that Reps controlled Congress for two years. They didn't.

They objectively did. That's a weird thing to attempt to gaslight the rest of us who know better. Just for example, you do realize, I suppose, that TCJA got NO Democratic votes, because they passed the budget using reconciliation which required only a simple majority - 50 + Pence - in the Senate and a simple majority in the House.
 
And tax reductions had no effect on economic growth? Nothing other than tax cuts had any effect on revenues?

No, I'm sure the tax cuts, like any increase in deficit spending, increased economic growth to some extent. And all those factors OTHER THAN tax rates have a far bigger impact on GDP than the top marginal tax rate, and GDP growth obviously impacts revenue.

That's sort of the point. With no changes in tax rates, the economy grows over time roughly with productivity growth and population growth. Tax rates only have a minor impact on that - interest rates, technology, world demand, etc. have far bigger impacts than marginal tax rates. So when we raise tax rates, GDP still goes up, and when we lower rates, GDP goes up.

It's no mystery why, really. If we tax someone, we transfer it from that person or company to the government, which spends it. The difference in growth is the difference in the productivity of that $dollar transferred from the private sector to the public sector. I think we can all agree that the private sector on average does a better job of putting that dollar to its highest and best use, because competition, etc., than the government, but it's not like the government just trashed that dollar - it spends it, then that poor person spends the dollar given to him or her into the private sector, or the taxed dollar goes to a hospital or physician who then spends it in the private sector, or to a defense contractor who spends it, or it goes to a soldier or other government employee who spends it in the private sector.
 
The "Dems" didn't pass unfunded tax cuts that will add $200 billion to the deficits for the next few years. Not a single "Dem" voted for those tax cuts, and the GOP needed ZERO Democratic votes to pass accompanying spending cuts, but didn't do so. So when the GOP has the House, Senate and WH and blows up the deficit, seems to me we can put the blame on the GOP, given they passed their budgets with no Democratic votes in favor.

Indeed, you cannot simultaneously care about the financial position of the government, introduce tax cuts on high-income earners without offsetting them with tax hikes elsewhere, nor any spending cuts. However, I am not sure that playing a party blaming game will do us any good. In fact, I am quite convinced this is exactly the kind of talk that makes us less sensitive to listening to the opinions of other people or to fact-checking our assumptions and beliefs.
 
No, I'm sure the tax cuts, like any increase in deficit spending, increased economic growth to some extent.

Just in case some people doubt it, I can actually back up that claim. In a recent working paper, Guay and Normandin (2019) show that for the US since WWII, you can unambiguously pin down the effect of tax cuts in the US, but they also show that the effect of spending hikes depend on the assumption you make. They use what we call a structural VAR approach. You begin with a simple statistical model which says the current value of a group of macroeconomic variables depend on their recent past and random innovations. Then, you assume this statistical description of the economy is related to the actual causes that gave rise to the observations we make. Assuming the causal model (or structural model, hence the name structural VAR) has the same form as your statistical model, you have a chance to recover it if you can find a clever way to relate the structural innovations (the random events to which people actually react) to the statistical innovations (which are proxied by the statistical errors you get after estimating your model). Usually, we assume each statistical error is a weighted sum of structural errors -- i.e., the innovations in the data combine many innovations simultaneously. From here, the methods in the SVAR literature consists in imposing just the right amounts of restrictions to disentangle the statistical innovations and, thus, recover the structural innovations -- i.e., the so-called macroeconomic shocks, such as policy changes.

Now, what Guay and Normandin propose is that you can forgo SOME of this effort if at least one of the underlying innovation is not Gaussian: specifically, if they exhibit skewness or kurtosis, you can use that to your advantage. The reason is that skewness and kurtosis imply errors will "draw" a shape that is impossible to draw with a normally distributed variable. A simple rank test on the right matrices gets you the answer. If you follow the argument and apply it to their example, you find that no assumption structure that is consistent with the data is going to get you tax cuts that are not expansionary. In the language above, statistics alone suffice to disentangle that effect. However, it is not the case for spending hikes. We have a hard time pinning down the spending multiplier and it can go from slightly negative, all the way to above one, if I recall, depending on what we assume.

So, the nuance here is that we're more certain of what happens when taxes cause a deficit hike than when spending causes a deficit hike, at least as far as the post-war US is concerned.
 
Just in case some people doubt it, I can actually back up that claim. In a recent working paper, Guay and Normandin (2019) show that for the US since WWII, you can unambiguously pin down the effect of tax cuts in the US, but they also show that the effect of spending hikes depend on the assumption you make. They use what we call a structural VAR approach. You begin with a simple statistical model which says the current value of a group of macroeconomic variables depend on their recent past and random innovations. Then, you assume this statistical description of the economy is related to the actual causes that gave rise to the observations we make. Assuming the causal model (or structural model, hence the name structural VAR) has the same form as your statistical model, you have a chance to recover it if you can find a clever way to relate the structural innovations (the random events to which people actually react) to the statistical innovations (which are proxied by the statistical errors you get after estimating your model). Usually, we assume each statistical error is a weighted sum of structural errors -- i.e., the innovations in the data combine many innovations simultaneously. From here, the methods in the SVAR literature consists in imposing just the right amounts of restrictions to disentangle the statistical innovations and, thus, recover the structural innovations -- i.e., the so-called macroeconomic shocks, such as policy changes.

Now, what Guay and Normandin propose is that you can forgo SOME of this effort if at least one of the underlying innovation is not Gaussian: specifically, if they exhibit skewness or kurtosis, you can use that to your advantage. The reason is that skewness and kurtosis imply errors will "draw" a shape that is impossible to draw with a normally distributed variable. A simple rank test on the right matrices gets you the answer. If you follow the argument and apply it to their example, you find that no assumption structure that is consistent with the data is going to get you tax cuts that are not expansionary. In the language above, statistics alone suffice to disentangle that effect. However, it is not the case for spending hikes. We have a hard time pinning down the spending multiplier and it can go from slightly negative, all the way to above one, if I recall, depending on what we assume.

So, the nuance here is that we're more certain of what happens when taxes cause a deficit hike than when spending causes a deficit hike, at least as far as the post-war US is concerned.


Interesting post and research here. Reading it got my attention when they discussed a normal distribution as being insufficient relying upon some outlier event (Black Swan) to affect results more significantly. Lets take their logic to the extremes then. Say we spent the entire budget, every single dime, on infrastructure, education and jobs to dramatically improve the efficiency of our entire economy. Are they claiming such investments would not return multiples worthy of the investments? All of us do this ourselves, we invest in more efficient systems to be more competitive, productive and efficient. Why does this not apply to government investments such as pure research, highway systems, ports, airports, universities, etc? Lets take the other extreme, no taxes at all. Who pays for the improvements to the commons then?
 
And tax reductions had no effect on economic growth? Nothing other than tax cuts had any effect on revenues?

I don't think tax-cuts had an effect on economic growth. Corporations invest in plant and equipment because they need plant and equipment. They don't invest more because their taxes are lower. In fact, they have a higher incentive to invest when tax-rates are high, because those investments are tax deductible.
 
I don't think tax-cuts had an effect on economic growth. Corporations invest in plant and equipment because they need plant and equipment. They don't invest more because their taxes are lower. In fact, they have a higher incentive to invest when tax-rates are high, because those investments are tax deductible.
They invest in it when they forecast increased business and where funds are available, e.g. less spent on taxes - both things lower tax rates cause. You do know that Trump's also sped up capital expensing on taxes, yes?
 
Congress gets the blame. That includes Dems and Reps.

btw, you are either being dishonest or you are ignorant when you say that Reps controlled Congress for two years. They didn't.

Hmmm... then please explain:

The One Hundred Fifteenth United States Congress was a meeting of the legislative branch of the United States federal government, composed of the Senate and the House of Representatives. It met in Washington, D.C. from January 3, 2017, to January 3, 2019, during the final weeks of Barack Obama's presidency and the first two years of Donald Trump's presidency.
Several political scientists described the legislative accomplishments of this Congress as modest, considering that both Congress and the Presidency were under unified Republican Party control
.[
 
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