Nationl Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

No, what changed was the consumer spending which is the largest component of GDP.

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By how much and relative to what? Wait... that's a form of context.

Look, this is a waste of time, I am not going to change your mind or you mine. You see, I understand GDP and the components, apparently you don't. Debt service and entitlement spending aren't components of GDP gov't spending

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80k+ is a testament to time well wasted, if this is what we are to expect as a general response.

1.) Debt service is a de facto addition to GDP so far as the interest taken from the private sector doesn't result in less investment. Economists refer to this phenomenon as crowding out.

2.) This isn't (really) happening due to the Trump deficits... private investment continues to be the current driver of rGDP:



Once again, you fall flat.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Kushinator said:

By how much and relative to what? Wait... that's a form of context.

80k+ is a testament to time well wasted, if this is what we are to expect as a general response.

1.) Debt service is a de facto addition to GDP so far as the interest taken from the private sector doesn't result in less investment. Economists refer to this phenomenon as crowding out.

2.) This isn't (really) happening due to the Trump deficits... private investment continues to be the current driver of rGDP:

Once again, you fall flat.

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Once again you post pretty charts with no context showing what a waste of time you are. Have you order the bust for Mt. Rushmore yet for Obama?

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

Once again you post pretty charts with no context showing what a waste of time you are. Have you order the bust for Mt. Rushmore yet for Obama?

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In other words, you can't respond. Investment is the volatile factor for output growth/decay. For someone who claims to understand what drives the private sector economy, this is pretty embarrassing.

Furthermore, debt service and entitlement spending are contributors to GDP. Your statement claiming the contrary is false.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

The problem you have is you look at a line on a chart or graph that means absolutely nothing without context. We have had this discussion before talking about part-time employees for economic reasons and GDP growth including the components

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Ok, let’s break down the components.

Contribution to percent change in GDP
CONSUMPTION
2009:-0.85
2010: 1.20
2011: 1.29
2012: 1.03
2013: 0.99
2014: 1.97
2015: 2.50
2016: 1.85
2017: 1.73
2018: 1.81
So, not much growth from consumption in Obama’s first term, better in second term. Less growth in Trump’s first two years than in Obsma’s last two years. Isn’t that the opposite of what you claimed?

INVESTMENT
2009: -3.52
2010: 1.86
2011: 0.94
2012: 1.64
2013: 1.11
2014: 0.90
2015: 0.83
2016: -0.24
2017: 0.81
2018: 1.03

Context: 2016 was a tumultuous election year, so we can disregard the negative impact on GDP as being part of any trend or pattern. The higher investment in 2028 shows confidence in a strong economy.

NET EXPORTS
2009: 1.13
2010 -0.49
2011: -0.01
2012: 0.00
2013: 0.22
2014: -0.25
2015: -0.78
2016: -0.30
2017: -0.31
2018: -0.22
Nothing much to comment on here.

GOVERNMENT SPENDING
2009: 0.70
2010; 0.00
2011: -0.66
2012: -0.42
2013: -0.47
2014: -0.18
2015: 0.33
2016: 0.25
2017: -0.01
2018: 0.26
Wait....government soending had a NEGATIVE impact on GDP for most of Obama’s term???
Largish in his first year. And it looks like it’s too soon to tell about under Trump

“Context” does not mean evaluation of good or bad, but noting what other things were happening that could affect the numbers.

I’m not sure why you were asking about “success” to me, when I’ve never claimed Obama had any successes (or failures)

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

pinqy said:

Ok, let’s break down the components.

Contribution to percent change in GDP
CONSUMPTION
2009:-0.85
2010: 1.20
2011: 1.29
2012: 1.03
2013: 0.99
2014: 1.97
2015: 2.50
2016: 1.85
2017: 1.73
2018: 1.81
So, not much growth from consumption in Obama’s first term, better in second term. Less growth in Trump’s first two years than in Obsma’s last two years. Isn’t that the opposite of what you claimed?

INVESTMENT
2009: -3.52
2010: 1.86
2011: 0.94
2012: 1.64
2013: 1.11
2014: 0.90
2015: 0.83
2016: -0.24
2017: 0.81
2018: 1.03

Context: 2016 was a tumultuous election year, so we can disregard the negative impact on GDP as being part of any trend or pattern. The higher investment in 2028 shows confidence in a strong economy.

NET EXPORTS
2009: 1.13
2010 -0.49
2011: -0.01
2012: 0.00
2013: 0.22
2014: -0.25
2015: -0.78
2016: -0.30
2017: -0.31
2018: -0.22
Nothing much to comment on here.

GOVERNMENT SPENDING
2009: 0.70
2010; 0.00
2011: -0.66
2012: -0.42
2013: -0.47
2014: -0.18
2015: 0.33
2016: 0.25
2017: -0.01
2018: 0.26
Wait....government soending had a NEGATIVE impact on GDP for most of Obama’s term???
Largish in his first year. And it looks like it’s too soon to tell about under Trump

“Context” does not mean evaluation of good or bad, but noting what other things were happening that could affect the numbers.

I’m not sure why you were asking about “success” to me, when I’ve never claimed Obama had any successes (or failures)

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You obviously have done a lot of work here and deserve a thank you, my problem continues to be one of context as percentage change doesn't mean a lot to me especially as the high base numbers grow. I prefer dollar change and yes understanding how inflation plays a role but a 3% GDP growth on a 18.9 trillion dollar, the GDP Obama left Trump, is a lot greater than the GDP growth that Obama inherited from Bush 14.7 trillion. Total dollars tell the story.

Further what most want to ignore is that the tax cuts began in January 2018, not in January 2017 and the real impact is on jobs including the reduction in full time jobs which last month was 4.3 million, historic low and less than the 5.7 million Obama left Trump. In addition employment today is 157 million vs the 152 million Trump inherited which is 5 million in two years vs. Obama's 6 million in 8 years.

Another factor that is being ignored is that Obama's stimulus program was signed in February 2009 and was for shovel ready jobs that didn't create those jobs thus the consumption numbers were not very good as he basically ignored the private Sector. Trump didn't and Trump didn't pump taxpayer dollars into a stimulus program to bail out teachers and other union employees including GM/Chrysler.

This is all about economic policies and what policies benefit the U.S. economy. We are a PRIVATE SECTOR economy, not a public sector one and promoting the private sector isn't what Obama did. Consumption only started growing again when jobs started returning in 2014. Without consumer spending our economy suffers and that is why the Obama economy wasn't anywhere near what it should have been. Jobs were not created as promised, they are being created now

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

842 billion in government spending for the stimulus along with regular spending. You have no idea what makes up GDP

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So, some types of government spending, such as the stimulus, do add to the GDP?

You do recall that a part of that stimulus was in the form of tax cuts, don't you?

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

So, some types of government spending, such as the stimulus, do add to the GDP?

You do recall that a part of that stimulus was in the form of tax cuts, don't you?

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There were no tax cuts in the Obama stimulus, the rebate isn't a tax cut and all the others required some kind of action to benefit. All gov't spending is part of GDP which artificially inflates the GDP growth and that is exactly the point which is why the Obama GDP generated the worst recovery in modern history

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

There were no tax cuts in the Obama stimulus, the rebate isn't a tax cut and all the others required some kind of action to benefit. All gov't spending is part of GDP which artificially inflates the GDP growth and that is exactly the point which is why the Obama GDP generated the worst recovery in modern history

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Posted by you earlier:

Debt service and entitlement spending aren't components of GDP gov't spending

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So, make up your mind one way or the other.



As for the tax cuts:

How It Worked
ARRA had three spending categories. It cut taxes by $288 billion. It spent $224 billion in extended unemployment benefits, education, and health care. It created jobs by allocating $275 billion in federal contracts, grants, and loans.

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source

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

Posted by you earlier:





So, make up your mind one way or the other.



As for the tax cuts:





source

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OMG, you keep buying what the media sends your way, what tax cut did you get from the Stimulus??? A rebate isn't a tax cut it is a refund of taxes paid. Stunning how easily it is to indoctrinate some very good people

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

OMG, you keep buying what the media sends your way, what tax cut did you get from the Stimulus??? A rebate isn't a tax cut it is a refund of taxes paid. Stunning how easily it is to indoctrinate some very good people

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If the media reports it, then it must be wrong, since Trump himself says that the media is "fake news."

And the anti Trumpers are the ones who have been "brainwashed." What a hoot.

Much of the tax cuts went to small businesses, how capitalistic! I don't own a small business, so I, personally, missed out.

Now, go back and read my link, at least the part where the tax cuts were described, before making any more foolish partisan responses.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

If the media reports it, then it must be wrong, since Trump himself says that the media is "fake news."

And the anti Trumpers are the ones who have been "brainwashed." What a hoot.

Much of the tax cuts went to small businesses, how capitalistic! I don't own a small business, so I, personally, missed out.

Now, go back and read my link, at least the part where the tax cuts were described, before making any more foolish partisan responses.

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The data speaks for itself, why do you need the media to put their spin on it. What tax cuts went to small businesses? People didn't have the money to spend in the economy so what good are tax cuts to small businesses that have no customers? You missed out alright just like most taxpayers who didn't get a tax cut or have more spendable income. Sick and tired of the leftwing spin including yours, no reason to read the link as neither you or Obama understand the private sector so stop the baiting for this is all you are doing

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

The data speaks for itself, why do you need the media to put their spin on it. What tax cuts went to small businesses? People didn't have the money to spend in the economy so what good are tax cuts to small businesses that have no customers? You missed out alright just like most taxpayers who didn't get a tax cut or have more spendable income. Sick and tired of the leftwing spin including yours, no reason to read the link as neither you or Obama understand the private sector so stop the baiting for this is all you are doing

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Read the link. It's painfully obvious that you haven't. It's not "left wing spin." If a Republican president had cut taxes... Oh, wait, a Republican president did cut taxes. Unfortunately, the timing was not the same, as taxes weren't cut to stimulate the economy during a recession, but to earn political points.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

Read the link. It's painfully obvious that you haven't. It's not "left wing spin." If a Republican president had cut taxes... Oh, wait, a Republican president did cut taxes. Unfortunately, the timing was not the same, as taxes weren't cut to stimulate the economy during a recession, but to earn political points.

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Look, stop the baiting as apparently still don't understand the private sector or the components of GDP

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

Look, stop the baiting as apparently still don't understand the private sector or the components of GDP

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It looks like you've run out of responses, as that one had nothing at all to do with what I posted.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

Look, stop the baiting as apparently still don't understand the private sector or the components of GDP

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Of course in the liberal world there never is the right time to cut taxes as the federal gov't needs the money more than the taxpayers and a bigger federal gov't is always the answer. Never mind that state and local gov't coffers grew, charitable giving grew, record S&P dividends are being paid but one of the best things for me is finally high taxed states are having their true costs shown to the taxpayers as their high state and local taxes are being capped for the federal return deductions. No wonder you are against the tax cut legislation signed by Trump

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

Of course in the liberal world there never is the right time to cut taxes as the federal gov't needs the money more than the taxpayers

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Do you even listen to yourself reply? In one sentence, you are denouncing the evils of federalism. In the second following sentence, you actually negate your original statement where you praise tax increases because they preside over states that do more for their people than is mandated.

and a bigger federal gov't is always the answer.

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Only when it can collect more tax revenue from higher income states like California, New York, Illinois, etc.... You're a delusional hypocrite.

Never mind that state and local gov't coffers grew

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When do they not grow? You will ignore this question.

charitable giving grew

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When did it not grow?

record S&P dividends are being paid

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When where they not record dividends?

one of the best things for me is finally high taxed states are having their true costs shown to the taxpayers as their high state and local taxes are being capped for the federal return deductions. No wonder you are against the tax cut legislation signed by Trump

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And here you highlight your hypocrisy. :2wave:

You are a gift that keeps on refusing to learn.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

Of course in the liberal world there never is the right time to cut taxes as the federal gov't needs the money more than the taxpayers and a bigger federal gov't is always the answer. Never mind that state and local gov't coffers grew, charitable giving grew, record S&P dividends are being paid but one of the best things for me is finally high taxed states are having their true costs shown to the taxpayers as their high state and local taxes are being capped for the federal return deductions. No wonder you are against the tax cut legislation signed by Trump

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Do you think Obama is a liberal?

He cut taxes, and continued the tax cuts made by Bush. Facts, funny things they are.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

Do you think Obama is a liberal?

He cut taxes, and continued the tax cuts made by Bush. Facts, funny things they are.

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Obama's economic policies were certainly liberal highlighted by ACA, bail out of the Unions, take over of GM, promotion of class envy and jealousy, appeasement of our enemies, and 9.3 trillion added to the debt. Facts are facts and the official data are facts

Visbek said:

US News: National debt tops $22 trillion for first time, after Trump tax cut

Treasury Department:
Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)

$16,157,240,020,401 in Treasuries
$5,855,600,871,283 in Intragovernmental

Needless to say, the big drivers these days are the Trump tax cuts, and last year's spending bills.

The most likely short-term impact will be an increase in interest rates. In the medium term, it will probably make it harder to borrow in a recession.

Someone better hope that MMT is accurate....

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Red:
The heart of MMT, as it pertains to the national debt, is that a nation can, to liquidate its debt, flood the global economy by printing money absent any underlying national productively giving rise the increase in the money supply. The theory is that nations can do that so long as inflation remains low. Of course, printing and issuing money thus results in inflation increases.

Even an economics novice can tell that the national-debt settlement portion of MMT theory relies on not-materializing that which must occur in the wake of the action one takes, printing and issuing currency, to resolve the debt problem one created by borrowing too much in the first place. Who can't see that? Economics imbeciles like Trump and his followers.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

Obama's economic policies were certainly liberal highlighted by ACA, bail out of the Unions, take over of GM, promotion of class envy and jealousy, appeasement of our enemies, and 9.3 trillion added to the debt. Facts are facts and the official data are facts

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So you agree that Obama is a liberal. Since he cut taxes, my point is made: Liberals sometimes cut taxes.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

So you agree that Obama is a liberal. Since he cut taxes, my point is made: Liberals sometimes cut taxes.

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LOL, what tax cut did you get? What tax cut did the majority in this country get? Cutting taxes on businesses does little good if you don't have customers with money to buy the goods and services

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

LOL, what tax cut did you get? What tax cut did the majority in this country get? Cutting taxes on businesses does little good if you don't have customers with money to buy the goods and services

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So, now Obama's tax cuts don't count because they were for small businesses?


What makes you think those businesses didn't have a market?

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

So, now Obama's tax cuts don't count because they were for small businesses?


What makes you think those businesses didn't have a market?

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What tax cuts?

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Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:

What tax cuts?

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LOL! The ones I already posted a link to and you said didn't count because it was a tax cut for small business.

Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:

LOL! The ones I already posted a link to and you said didn't count because it was a tax cut for small business.

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Small Business tax cuts??? You still don't understand the components of GDP do you?