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Nationl Debt Tops $22 Trillion

MTAtech said:
A great example of the Dunning–Kruger effect. Yeah, you are getting hammered and don't even realize it.
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You are truly a legend in your own mind where projections trump real official data and quarterly numbers always trump the yearly numbers. Context never matters to a leftwing radical like you. If you have something constructive to debate, have at it but if you are going to continue to focus on a President who has been out of office for over 2 years and continue to try and prop up his failures you are wasting your time and mine. I will let the official data tell the story, no predictions, projections, no economist spin, or no radical lies.
 
Conservative said:
the question then becomes why isn't that you? Just think of all the people you could help with that money vs. asking a federal bureaucrat to do it for you or is the reality that you really don't give a damn about anyone else?
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Well, to my dying day I ask myself the same question because I have been working in Silicon Valley since 1983 and due to very bad luck and some misplaced loyalties, I did not make a gazillion dollars in the dot.com bubble. But hey, I know that those that did were mostly lucky. There were more smart folks in companies that failed then there were in companies that succeeded to become giants. Unlike most people, I saw first hand how luck, timing, nepotism and the quirks of the marketplace made some folks look like geniuses and others look like fools. My old boss was fired from our company in 95 only to land at a startup. Within four years he was worth 200 million. At the heart of every great company was a key figure or two, the rest just tagged along for the ride and if you were one of their chosen buddies, you got to ride along and enjoy the rewards.
 
Conservative said:
You are truly a legend in your own mind where projections trump real official data and quarterly numbers always trump the yearly numbers. Context never matters to a leftwing radical like you. If you have something constructive to debate, have at it but if you are going to continue to focus on a President who has been out of office for over 2 years and continue to try and prop up his failures you are wasting your time and mine. I will let the official data tell the story, no predictions, projections, no economist spin, or no radical lies.
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When you get cornered and exposed, you rely upon the old standby retort, call your opponent a left wing radical, thump your chest like a mountain gorilla and change the subject. Bravo, you are quite the conservative.
 
Vadinho said:
When you get cornered and exposed, you rely upon the old standby retort, call your opponent a left wing radical, thump your chest like a mountain gorilla and change the subject. Bravo, you are quite the conservative.
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Never been cornered because you don't corner someone who has the data on their side. You have yet to post any data in context. You bought the MTA claim of a quarterly GDP growth of over 4% and that is meaningless, yearly is what matters and that is what I posted. You want badly to believe what the left tells you but the left with their agenda is making you look like a fool.

When are you going to offer solution and stop attacking the President who is generating positive results? You would never survive the private sector placing blame all the time and whining. Come up with solutions.
 
Conservative said:
Never been cornered because you don't corner someone who has the data on their side. You have yet to post any data in context. You bought the MTA claim of a quarterly GDP growth of over 4% and that is meaningless, yearly is what matters and that is what I posted. You want badly to believe what the left tells you but the left with their agenda is making you look like a fool.

When are you going to offer solution and stop attacking the President who is generating positive results? You would never survive the private sector placing blame all the time and whining. Come up with solutions.
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oh boy, we have gone over your data countless times here, there is no teaching those who refuse to learn...
 
Vadinho said:
oh boy, we have gone over your data countless times here, there is no teaching those who refuse to learn...
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Then there is no reason to continue this as obviously official verifiable data isn't relevant to you and requires liberal interpretation which is never offered. Why don't you interpret for me since you believe mine is wrong? Deficit in 2018 was up 17% and most of that was debt service and entitlement spending, interpret it for me?
 
Conservative said:
Then there is no reason to continue this as obviously official verifiable data isn't relevant to you and requires liberal interpretation which is never offered. Why don't you interpret for me since you believe mine is wrong? Deficit in 2018 was up 17% and most of that was debt service and entitlement spending, interpret it for me?
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Ok, one more time.

You claim Obama drove the deficit into the stratosphere.

Truth: Unless your remedy was to cut one to two trillion per year off the budgets for 2010, 2011, 2012 and so on, he did what any responsible President would have done. He made up for lack of revenue, loss of jobs, massive state and local employment layoffs and so on by running deficits to make up for lack of demand. This naturally resulted in deficits. You fault him for that which forces rational people to say you are nothing but a partisan hack.

You claim GNP growth under Obama was too low:

Truth: He turned a massive potential depression into a recovery while being unable to stimulate demand by more spending due to constraints put upon him by Republicans. Nevertheless, he managed us out of the recession and saw steady growth for his entire administration. Was it good enough? That is debatable but when the Republicans took over Congress in 2012, there was not much he could do to satisfy the Freedom Caucus and GOP efforts to destroy him at any cost.

You claim that Trump's economy is superior to Obama's.

Truth: He merely rode a horse that was already on the fast track. By giving tax cuts, he created even more massive deficits which you apparently could care less about now that our first BLACK POTUS is gone.

That sums up all your bull here.
 
Vadinho said:
Ok, one more time.

You claim Obama drove the deficit into the stratosphere.

Truth: Unless your remedy was to cut one to two trillion per year off the budgets for 2010, 2011, 2012 and so on, he did what any responsible President would have done. He made up for lack of revenue, loss of jobs, massive state and local employment layoffs and so on by running deficits to make up for lack of demand. This naturally resulted in deficits. You fault him for that which forces rational people to say you are nothing but a partisan hack.

You claim GNP growth under Obama was too low:

Truth: He turned a massive potential depression into a recovery while being unable to stimulate demand by more spending due to constraints put upon him by Republicans. Nevertheless, he managed us out of the recession and saw steady growth for his entire administration. Was it good enough? That is debatable but when the Republicans took over Congress in 2012, there was not much he could do to satisfy the Freedom Caucus and GOP efforts to destroy him at any cost.

You claim that Trump's economy is superior to Obama's.

Truth: He merely rode a horse that was already on the fast track. By giving tax cuts, he created even more massive deficits which you apparently could care less about now that our first BLACK POTUS is gone.

That sums up all your bull here.
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Look, creating the worst recovery in the history of this nation signifies poor economic policy and that is reality. You look at the results and ignore the policies that generated those results. The stimulus was to create shovel ready jobs, NOT save state and local teachers jobs or union jobs which also are state responsibilities. He did what was reasonable to the left, use taxpayer money to show up liberal support groups, not the private sector which this economy is built on

You bought the liberal spin that he inherited a near recession. That is a lie, he inherited a Democratic Congress, TARP that recapitalized the banks, No budget so he had a white board to do whatever he wanted, and a stimulus program almost day one. The worst of the recession was in 2008, NOT 2009 although his policies prolonged the recession and although the world economies suffered because of liberal economic policies that promote massive gov't spending, our economy is built on the Private sector which he nor most liberals don't understand

You now want to claim that Trump inherited a strong economy but have posted no results showing that whereas I have posted results showing something entirely different . why is it you buy what you are told and never post data?
 
Conservative said:
And he did generate 3% fiscal year growth
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Except "fiscal year growth" isn't a thing. There's can from preceding year ( annual level), there's change from same quarter in preceding year (and in particular change in 4th quarter from preceding year)

But "fiscal year growth? What is that? Change in average of Q4 to Q3 from the previous Q4 to Q3?
Nobody does that as you're crossing through 3 different years.
 
pinqy said:
Except "fiscal year growth" isn't a thing. There's can from preceding year ( annual level), there's change from same quarter in preceding year (and in particular change in 4th quarter from preceding year)

But "fiscal year growth? What is that? Change in average of Q4 to Q3 from the previous Q4 to Q3?
Nobody does that as you're crossing through 3 different years.
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Fiscal year is October to September and that is what BEA.gov reports and that is what I was talking about.
 
Conservative said:
Fiscal year is October to September and that is what BEA.gov reports and that is what I was talking about.
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No, they do not. They do change in annual average, and change from same quarter in preceding year.
They do not do October to September. Especially since GDP is calculate on a quarterly basis. So October to September to Q4 to Q3. You will not find any such product from BEA
 
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pinqy said:
No, they do not. They do change in annual average, and change from same quarter in preceding year.
They do not do October to September.
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Look, this is a waste of time, the Obama results generated the worst recovery in Modern History and that is reality, sorry but debating you on minutia isn't worth it
 
Conservative said:
Look, this is a waste of time, the Obama results generated the worst recovery in Modern History and that is reality, sorry but debating you on minutia isn't worth it
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No, it’s deception. Why would you falsely claim BEA uses fiscal year? Where did you hear that?

I don’t consider blatant fslsehoods to be minutiae.

GDP has not had 3% annual growth since Bush. If you are trying to claim that the 3.1% Q4 2017 -Q4 2018 over the year change counts, then yoiu’d also have to count the 4 over the year changes 3% or higher under Obama.
 
pinqy said:
No, it’s deception. Why would you falsely claim BEA uses fiscal year? Where did you hear that?

I don’t consider blatant fslsehoods to be minutiae.

GDP has not had 3% annual growth since Bush. If you are trying to claim that the 3.1% Q4 2017 -Q4 2018 over the year change counts, then yoiu’d also have to count the 4 over the year changes 3% or higher under Obama.
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No deception, reality, the worst recovery in U.S. history but you are right about annual GDP growth not being 3% since Bush. IMO that will change when fourth qtr is revised in March. The shutdown skewed the 2018 numbers

Comparison between two bad recessions and a reminder 2018 results were PRELIMINARY with the final numbers coming in the end of March due to the gov't shutdown

Table 1.1.1. Percent Change From Preceding Period in Real Gross Domestic Product
[Percent]
Bureau of Economic Analysis
Last Revised on: July 27, 2018 - Next Release Date August 29, 2018

Line 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016
Line
1 Gross domestic product -0.1 -2.5 2.6 1.6 2.2 1.8 2.5 2.9 1.6


Table 1.1.1. Percent Change From Preceding Period in Real Gross Domestic Product
[Percent]
Bureau of Economic Analysis
Last Revised on: July 27, 2018 - Next Release Date August 29, 2018

Line 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988
Line
1 Gross domestic product -0.3 2.5 -1.8 4.6 7.2 4.2 3.5 3.5 4.2
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Conservative said:
No deception, reality,
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No, it is not reality that BEA uses fiscal year to fiscal year (October to September) for GDP. And others have certainly been deceptive by using Q4 to Q4 to claim 3.1% for Trump but not using that same standard for Obama’s terms.

you are right about annual GDP growth not being 3% since Bush. IMO that will change when fourth qtr is revised in March.
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there’s a good chance of it changing...don’t know if up or down
 
pinqy said:
No, it is not reality that BEA uses fiscal year to fiscal year (October to September) for GDP. And others have certainly been deceptive by using Q4 to Q4 to claim 3.1% for Trump but not using that same standard for Obama’s terms.

there’s a good chance of it changing...don’t know if up or down
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Does it really matter what bea.gov uses? Yes you are right, they post annual but is that really the issue here? Why can't you and the radical left stop the partisan bull**** and focus on celebrating actual results? Have you ever seen a radical here propose any solutions to the problems facing this country?

I posted the actual Obama term GDP numbers, not very pretty, are they? Why is there such a desire to prop up and defend Obama and a continued effort to blame Bush and now Trump? What exactly are the left blaming Trump for? Are you denying that the Trump numbers blow the Obama numbers away especially when applying context?

As for changing, bls showed over 300,000 jobs created in December so I believe the numbers will be up and we will be over 3% if that is even relevant. What is relevant are the jobs created and context
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:
Does it really matter what bea.gov uses? Yes you are right, they post annual but is that really the issue here?
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For me it is. I like the truth. I like facts. I dislike people, irrespective of politics,who care more about their point and agenda than the truth or facts.
Why can't you and the radical left stop the partisan bull**** and focus on celebrating actual results?
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When Have you ever seen me post anything partisan? Or "celebrate" any economic results? Or even credit economic success to any President? I try very hard to make sure I say "under X" or "during X's term" to avoid that. I've never blamed Bush, or praised Obama or said anything negative or positive about Trump as far as economic results.

And I really hope you're not trying g to claim you're not partisan.

Are you denying that the Trump numbers blow the Obama numbers away especially when applying context?
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The problem here is that your context seems be "Obama was horrible and everything under him was bad."
Have the GDP numbers u see Trump "blown away" those under Obama? I'm not seeing it
fredgraph.png

It has been smoother under Trump and a little bit steeper than most (but not all) of Obama's term, but I'm not seeing any radical changes. Now Reagan vs Carter?
fredgraph.png

That is "blown away"
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

pinqy said:
For me it is. I like the truth. I like facts. I dislike people, irrespective of politics,who care more about their point and agenda than the truth or facts.

When Have you ever seen me post anything partisan? Or "celebrate" any economic results? Or even credit economic success to any President? I try very hard to make sure I say "under X" or "during X's term" to avoid that. I've never blamed Bush, or praised Obama or said anything negative or positive about Trump as far as economic results.

And I really hope you're not trying g to claim you're not partisan.


The problem here is that your context seems be "Obama was horrible and everything under him was bad."
Have the GDP numbers u see Trump "blown away" those under Obama? I'm not seeing it
fredgraph.png

It has been smoother under Trump and a little bit steeper than most (but not all) of Obama's term, but I'm not seeing any radical changes. Now Reagan vs Carter?
fredgraph.png

That is "blown away"
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Of course I am partisan, I am a partisan conservative and that used to be a trait accepted by the Democrats as I probably have voted for more democratic candidates than most of the people on this thread who claimed to be a liberal voted Republican.

I believe in the private sector, I believe in states rights and responsibilities, I believe in actual results not Media or left-wing, right-wing spin

I believe Obama and Hillary were incompetent. Obama was basically a whiteboard who was whatever anyone wanted him to be and Hilary got all positions because of her name and has no significant successes in any position she ever held.

Like it or not Trump has generated the positive economic results that I voted for and based upon what I am seeing from the Democratic party will vote for him again.

The 24/7 Trump bashing does nothing for the problems facing this country or the American people and yes Trump's results in two years blow Obama's away

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Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

pinqy said:
For me it is. I like the truth. I like facts. I dislike people, irrespective of politics,who care more about their point and agenda than the truth or facts.

When Have you ever seen me post anything partisan? Or "celebrate" any economic results? Or even credit economic success to any President? I try very hard to make sure I say "under X" or "during X's term" to avoid that. I've never blamed Bush, or praised Obama or said anything negative or positive about Trump as far as economic results.

And I really hope you're not trying g to claim you're not partisan.


The problem here is that your context seems be "Obama was horrible and everything under him was bad."
Have the GDP numbers u see Trump "blown away" those under Obama? I'm not seeing it
fredgraph.png

It has been smoother under Trump and a little bit steeper than most (but not all) of Obama's term, but I'm not seeing any radical changes. Now Reagan vs Carter?
fredgraph.png

That is "blown away"
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The problem you have is you look at a line on a chart or graph that means absolutely nothing without context. We have had this discussion before talking about part-time employees for economic reasons and GDP growth including the components

How is taking employment from 146 million in January 2008 up to 152 million in January 2017 a success?

How is taking GDP growth from 14.7 trillion to 18.9 trillion in 8 years a success when 842 billion dollars of that growth was government spending on the stimulus?

It has been reported by most economist that this was the worst recovery in US history from a major recession. People point to the data showing how bad the recession was but never addressed the policies that generated those numbers and that is the issue.

Obama created a stimulus for shovel ready jobs and sold it on the basis that he would create new taxpayers not save existing taxpayers. when the stimulus failed to create shovel ready jobs he shifted the focus to save jobs. Where is it in the Constitution that it is the government's responsibility to save teachers jobs in the states when you can't prove that those jobs wouldn't have been saved by the state and local governments?

My all objective measurements Obama's term was a failure and he made Jimmy Carter look good

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Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:
The problem you have is you look at a line on a chart or graph that means absolutely nothing without context. We have had this discussion before talking about part-time employees for economic reasons and GDP growth including the components

How is taking employment from 146 million in January 2008 up to 152 million in January 2017 a success?

How is taking GDP growth from 14.7 trillion to 18.9 trillion in 8 years a success when 842 billion dollars of that growth was government spending on the stimulus?

It has been reported by most economist that this was the worst recovery in US history from a major recession. People point to the data showing how bad the recession was but never addressed the policies that generated those numbers and that is the issue.

Obama created a stimulus for shovel ready jobs and sold it on the basis that he would create new taxpayers not save existing taxpayers. when the stimulus failed to create shovel ready jobs he shifted the focus to save jobs. Where is it in the Constitution that it is the government's responsibility to save teachers jobs in the states when you can't prove that those jobs wouldn't have been saved by the state and local governments?

My all objective measurements Obama's term was a failure and he made Jimmy Carter look good

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You do understand that the chart you're talking about, the first one, shows a steady increase in the GDP, and doesn't show any radical change after the election of 2016, don't you?

Now, Mr. Conservative, how is it you voted for a lifelong Democrat and Clinton supporter who suddenly decided to change allegiances and run on the Republican ticket? How is it you were conned into the absurd idea that Trump is a conservative, and his opponents are all "radical leftists?"

I think you fell for a fraud. Now, there is no way to support your favorite candidate other than to claim that he has turned the economy around, as he has accomplished nothing else during his term. The GDP growth does not, however, support the idea that Trump is some sort of financial genius who is responsible for a sudden uptick in economic growth.
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:
You do understand that the chart you're talking about, the first one, shows a steady increase in the GDP, and doesn't show any radical change after the election of 2016, don't you?

Now, Mr. Conservative, how is it you voted for a lifelong Democrat and Clinton supporter who suddenly decided to change allegiances and run on the Republican ticket? How is it you were conned into the absurd idea that Trump is a conservative, and his opponents are all "radical leftists?"

I think you fell for a fraud. Now, there is no way to support your favorite candidate other than to claim that he has turned the economy around, as he has accomplished nothing else during his term. The GDP growth does not, however, support the idea that Trump is some sort of financial genius who is responsible for a sudden uptick in economic growth.
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Do you understand the components of GDP? what do you think the 842 billion gov't spending did to the GDP chart? I fell for nothing as I didn't vote for Hillary and am getting exactly the results I had hoped for. You on the other hand have offered no viable alternative
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:
Do you understand the components of GDP? what do you think the 842 billion gov't spending did to the GDP chart? I fell for nothing as I didn't vote for Hillary and am getting exactly the results I had hoped for. You on the other hand have offered no viable alternative
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I'm not sure just what your point is. Did you think that government spending changed drastically after the 2016 election, and thus altered the growth of GDP?

What makes you think that, had Hillary Clinton been elected, that GDP growth would be any different at all? You do understand that the POTUS does not control the economy, don't you?

Or by "getting the results you had hoped for," did you mean a failure to repeal and replace the ACA with something better? The failure to get Mexico to pay for a wall? The lack of respect the USA now has from its allies? How about the continued growth of the national debt long after the need for deficit spending has passed? Was that what you were hoping for?

Or is it just the personal example that the new president is giving our youth? Surely, that must be a great advantage, MAGA!
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:
I'm not sure just what your point is. Did you think that government spending changed drastically after the 2016 election, and thus altered the growth of GDP?

What makes you think that, had Hillary Clinton been elected, that GDP growth would be any different at all? You do understand that the POTUS does not control the economy, don't you?

Or by "getting the results you had hoped for," did you mean a failure to repeal and replace the ACA with something better? The failure to get Mexico to pay for a wall? The lack of respect the USA now has from its allies? How about the continued growth of the national debt long after the need for deficit spending has passed? Was that what you were hoping for?

Or is it just the personal example that the new president is giving our youth? Surely, that must be a great advantage, MAGA!
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No, what changed was the consumer spending which is the largest component of GDP. Look, this is a waste of time, I am not going to change your mind or you mine. You see, I understand GDP and the components, apparently you don't. Debt service and entitlement spending aren't components of GDP gov't spending

IMO, Hillary is incompetent, has no understanding of the private sector and her results in all the public jobs held shows she has no understanding at all of probably how to balance a checkbook. If you think our Youth are paying attention to the President, you are clueless, they and the public want jobs and economic activity and that is what they are getting
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Conservative said:
No, what changed was the consumer spending which is the largest component of GDP. Look, this is a waste of time, I am not going to change your mind or you mine. You see, I understand GDP and the components, apparently you don't. Debt service and entitlement spending aren't components of GDP gov't spending

IMO, Hillary is incompetent, has no understanding of the private sector and her results in all the public jobs held shows she has no understanding at all of probably how to balance a checkbook. If you think our Youth are paying attention to the President, you are clueless, they and the public want jobs and economic activity and that is what they are getting
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and that was what they were getting before the election as well, or did you think that the growing GDP since 2008 was due to something other than consumer spending?
 
Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

Dittohead not! said:
and that was what they were getting before the election as well, or did you think that the growing GDP since 2008 was due to something other than consumer spending?
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842 billion in government spending for the stimulus along with regular spending. You have no idea what makes up GDP

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