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Thread: Nationl Debt Tops $22 Trillion

  1. #801
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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    No, what changed was the consumer spending which is the largest component of GDP.
    By how much and relative to what? Wait... that's a form of context.




    Look, this is a waste of time, I am not going to change your mind or you mine. You see, I understand GDP and the components, apparently you don't. Debt service and entitlement spending aren't components of GDP gov't spending
    80k+ is a testament to time well wasted, if this is what we are to expect as a general response.

    1.) Debt service is a de facto addition to GDP so far as the interest taken from the private sector doesn't result in less investment. Economists refer to this phenomenon as crowding out.

    2.) This isn't (really) happening due to the Trump deficits... private investment continues to be the current driver of rGDP:



    Once again, you fall flat.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushinator View Post
    By how much and relative to what? Wait... that's a form of context.






    80k+ is a testament to time well wasted, if this is what we are to expect as a general response.

    1.) Debt service is a de facto addition to GDP so far as the interest taken from the private sector doesn't result in less investment. Economists refer to this phenomenon as crowding out.

    2.) This isn't (really) happening due to the Trump deficits... private investment continues to be the current driver of rGDP:



    Once again, you fall flat.
    Once again you post pretty charts with no context showing what a waste of time you are. Have you order the bust for Mt. Rushmore yet for Obama?

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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Once again you post pretty charts with no context showing what a waste of time you are. Have you order the bust for Mt. Rushmore yet for Obama?
    In other words, you can't respond. Investment is the volatile factor for output growth/decay. For someone who claims to understand what drives the private sector economy, this is pretty embarrassing.

    Furthermore, debt service and entitlement spending are contributors to GDP. Your statement claiming the contrary is false.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  4. #804
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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The problem you have is you look at a line on a chart or graph that means absolutely nothing without context. We have had this discussion before talking about part-time employees for economic reasons and GDP growth including the components
    Ok, letís break down the components.

    Contribution to percent change in GDP
    CONSUMPTION
    2009:-0.85
    2010: 1.20
    2011: 1.29
    2012: 1.03
    2013: 0.99
    2014: 1.97
    2015: 2.50
    2016: 1.85
    2017: 1.73
    2018: 1.81
    So, not much growth from consumption in Obamaís first term, better in second term. Less growth in Trumpís first two years than in Obsmaís last two years. Isnít that the opposite of what you claimed?

    INVESTMENT
    2009: -3.52
    2010: 1.86
    2011: 0.94
    2012: 1.64
    2013: 1.11
    2014: 0.90
    2015: 0.83
    2016: -0.24
    2017: 0.81
    2018: 1.03

    Context: 2016 was a tumultuous election year, so we can disregard the negative impact on GDP as being part of any trend or pattern. The higher investment in 2028 shows confidence in a strong economy.

    NET EXPORTS
    2009: 1.13
    2010 -0.49
    2011: -0.01
    2012: 0.00
    2013: 0.22
    2014: -0.25
    2015: -0.78
    2016: -0.30
    2017: -0.31
    2018: -0.22
    Nothing much to comment on here.

    GOVERNMENT SPENDING
    2009: 0.70
    2010; 0.00
    2011: -0.66
    2012: -0.42
    2013: -0.47
    2014: -0.18
    2015: 0.33
    2016: 0.25
    2017: -0.01
    2018: 0.26
    Wait....government soending had a NEGATIVE impact on GDP for most of Obamaís term???
    Largish in his first year. And it looks like itís too soon to tell about under Trump

    ďContextĒ does not mean evaluation of good or bad, but noting what other things were happening that could affect the numbers.

    Iím not sure why you were asking about ďsuccessĒ to me, when Iíve never claimed Obama had any successes (or failures)
    Therefore, since the world has still/Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure/Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would,/And train for ill and not for good.

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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by pinqy View Post
    Ok, let’s break down the components.

    Contribution to percent change in GDP
    CONSUMPTION
    2009:-0.85
    2010: 1.20
    2011: 1.29
    2012: 1.03
    2013: 0.99
    2014: 1.97
    2015: 2.50
    2016: 1.85
    2017: 1.73
    2018: 1.81
    So, not much growth from consumption in Obama’s first term, better in second term. Less growth in Trump’s first two years than in Obsma’s last two years. Isn’t that the opposite of what you claimed?

    INVESTMENT
    2009: -3.52
    2010: 1.86
    2011: 0.94
    2012: 1.64
    2013: 1.11
    2014: 0.90
    2015: 0.83
    2016: -0.24
    2017: 0.81
    2018: 1.03

    Context: 2016 was a tumultuous election year, so we can disregard the negative impact on GDP as being part of any trend or pattern. The higher investment in 2028 shows confidence in a strong economy.

    NET EXPORTS
    2009: 1.13
    2010 -0.49
    2011: -0.01
    2012: 0.00
    2013: 0.22
    2014: -0.25
    2015: -0.78
    2016: -0.30
    2017: -0.31
    2018: -0.22
    Nothing much to comment on here.

    GOVERNMENT SPENDING
    2009: 0.70
    2010; 0.00
    2011: -0.66
    2012: -0.42
    2013: -0.47
    2014: -0.18
    2015: 0.33
    2016: 0.25
    2017: -0.01
    2018: 0.26
    Wait....government soending had a NEGATIVE impact on GDP for most of Obama’s term???
    Largish in his first year. And it looks like it’s too soon to tell about under Trump

    “Context” does not mean evaluation of good or bad, but noting what other things were happening that could affect the numbers.

    I’m not sure why you were asking about “success” to me, when I’ve never claimed Obama had any successes (or failures)
    You obviously have done a lot of work here and deserve a thank you, my problem continues to be one of context as percentage change doesn't mean a lot to me especially as the high base numbers grow. I prefer dollar change and yes understanding how inflation plays a role but a 3% GDP growth on a 18.9 trillion dollar, the GDP Obama left Trump, is a lot greater than the GDP growth that Obama inherited from Bush 14.7 trillion. Total dollars tell the story.

    Further what most want to ignore is that the tax cuts began in January 2018, not in January 2017 and the real impact is on jobs including the reduction in full time jobs which last month was 4.3 million, historic low and less than the 5.7 million Obama left Trump. In addition employment today is 157 million vs the 152 million Trump inherited which is 5 million in two years vs. Obama's 6 million in 8 years.

    Another factor that is being ignored is that Obama's stimulus program was signed in February 2009 and was for shovel ready jobs that didn't create those jobs thus the consumption numbers were not very good as he basically ignored the private Sector. Trump didn't and Trump didn't pump taxpayer dollars into a stimulus program to bail out teachers and other union employees including GM/Chrysler.

    This is all about economic policies and what policies benefit the U.S. economy. We are a PRIVATE SECTOR economy, not a public sector one and promoting the private sector isn't what Obama did. Consumption only started growing again when jobs started returning in 2014. Without consumer spending our economy suffers and that is why the Obama economy wasn't anywhere near what it should have been. Jobs were not created as promised, they are being created now

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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    842 billion in government spending for the stimulus along with regular spending. You have no idea what makes up GDP

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    So, some types of government spending, such as the stimulus, do add to the GDP?

    You do recall that a part of that stimulus was in the form of tax cuts, don't you?


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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So, some types of government spending, such as the stimulus, do add to the GDP?

    You do recall that a part of that stimulus was in the form of tax cuts, don't you?
    There were no tax cuts in the Obama stimulus, the rebate isn't a tax cut and all the others required some kind of action to benefit. All gov't spending is part of GDP which artificially inflates the GDP growth and that is exactly the point which is why the Obama GDP generated the worst recovery in modern history

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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    There were no tax cuts in the Obama stimulus, the rebate isn't a tax cut and all the others required some kind of action to benefit. All gov't spending is part of GDP which artificially inflates the GDP growth and that is exactly the point which is why the Obama GDP generated the worst recovery in modern history
    Posted by you earlier:

    Debt service and entitlement spending aren't components of GDP gov't spending


    So, make up your mind one way or the other.



    As for the tax cuts:


    How It Worked
    ARRA had three spending categories. It cut taxes by $288 billion. It spent $224 billion in extended unemployment benefits, education, and health care. It created jobs by allocating $275 billion in federal contracts, grants, and loans.

    source


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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Posted by you earlier:





    So, make up your mind one way or the other.



    As for the tax cuts:





    source
    OMG, you keep buying what the media sends your way, what tax cut did you get from the Stimulus??? A rebate isn't a tax cut it is a refund of taxes paid. Stunning how easily it is to indoctrinate some very good people

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    Re: National Debt Tops $22 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    OMG, you keep buying what the media sends your way, what tax cut did you get from the Stimulus??? A rebate isn't a tax cut it is a refund of taxes paid. Stunning how easily it is to indoctrinate some very good people
    If the media reports it, then it must be wrong, since Trump himself says that the media is "fake news."

    And the anti Trumpers are the ones who have been "brainwashed." What a hoot.

    Much of the tax cuts went to small businesses, how capitalistic! I don't own a small business, so I, personally, missed out.

    Now, go back and read my link, at least the part where the tax cuts were described, before making any more foolish partisan responses.


    "The Republicans have gone from Abraham Lincoln to Sarah Palin to Donald Trump. No wonder they don't believe in evolution." Andy Borowitz

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