• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Financing the Green New Deal

JohnfrmClevelan

DP Veteran
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
6,815
Reaction score
4,420
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
The Green New Deal: How We Will Pay For It Isn't 'A Thing' - And Inflation Isn't Either

Representative Ocasio-Cortez already has given the best answer possible to such queries, most of which seem to be raised in bad faith. Why is it, she retorts, that these questions arise only in connection with useful ideas, not wasteful ideas? Where were the ‘pay-fors’ for Bush’s $5 trillion wars and tax cuts, or for last year’s $2 trillion tax giveaway to billionaires? Why wasn’t financing those massive throwaways as scary as financing the rescue of our planet and middle class now seems to be to these naysayers?

The short answer to ‘how we will pay for’ the Green New Deal is easy. We’ll pay for it just as we pay for all else: Congress will authorize necessary spending, and Treasury will spend. This is how we do it – always has been, always will be.

The money that’s spent, for its part, is never ‘raised’ first. To the contrary, federal spending is what brings that money into existence.

The rest of the article makes a pretty convincing case that the GND is very feasible.

The author of this piece, Robert Hockett, is a respected professor of law who has previously worked for the IMF and the NY Fed. You may have seen him making the rounds on the news shows lately.

So if anybody would like to argue against the Green New Deal, here is your chance. (Please take the time to read the article first.)

Good luck, and leave your strawmen at home.
 
My question is if all of this is correct, then why even tax people in the first place? The amount of money needed to fulfill everything in the Green New Dream is so outrageously high that in comparison the amount of taxes taken in would be a pittance. If we are going to just create money out of no where in order to pay for this then there is no reason to even bother taxing anyone.
 
My question is if all of this is correct, then why even tax people in the first place? The amount of money needed to fulfill everything in the Green New Dream is so outrageously high that in comparison the amount of taxes taken in would be a pittance. If we are going to just create money out of no where in order to pay for this then there is no reason to even bother taxing anyone.

If you do not understand why we have taxes, I suspect this discussion will be far above your head.
 
My question is if all of this is correct, then why even tax people in the first place? The amount of money needed to fulfill everything in the Green New Dream is so outrageously high that in comparison the amount of taxes taken in would be a pittance. If we are going to just create money out of no where in order to pay for this then there is no reason to even bother taxing anyone.


It's not the money. It's the total demand. Do we have the real resources to implement some or all of a New Deal, plus meet all the normal demands of people who have all of their income to spend? Maybe, maybe not. Taxation is a way of creating fiscal space for government spending.

Compare it to WWII; there, we were able to build a ton of tanks and planes for the war effort, plus send a large chunk of our labor force to war. But we also had rationing, price controls, and we incentivized saving via War Bonds. The economy couldn't supply everybody with everything, but nobody starved. It took some rationing of our economy's production; taxation is one way to accomplish that. But WWII could not have been financed on the backs of taxpayers, especially since we were just climbing out of a depression.

Money is never the issue when it comes to government spending. Money is merely a tool used to mobilize real resources. We have labor, we have materials, we have energy, but nothing gets done without money.
 
If you do not understand why we have taxes, I suspect this discussion will be far above your head.

If we are spending 10x more than what we are bringing in through taxation, why tax at all? Isn't the entire point of that article that we don't have to worry about being able to afford it? Why not simply add all of it to the debt and just not tax anyone?
 
My question is if all of this is correct, then why even tax people in the first place? The amount of money needed to fulfill everything in the Green New Dream is so outrageously high that in comparison the amount of taxes taken in would be a pittance. If we are going to just create money out of no where in order to pay for this then there is no reason to even bother taxing anyone.

Good rhetorical question, which is why "all of this" is daffy talk. Congress would have several choices: increase taxes, increase borrowing and/or create money. Each of them are a form of economic extraction, and all have economic consequences. Were there a ROI greater than the cost of "Green" initiative, it might make some sense to use one of these options, however, given that the plan has not even alluded to having done a cost-benefit analysis, its clear that this is mostly "raining gumdrops" and "prancing through the tulips" thinking.
 
If we are spending 10x more than what we are bringing in through taxation, why tax at all? Isn't the entire point of that article that we don't have to worry about being able to afford it? Why not simply add all of it to the debt and just not tax anyone?

We are not spending 10x what we bring in through taxation.

And no, that is not the point of the article
 
Good rhetorical question, which is why "all of this" is daffy talk. Congress would have several choices: increase taxes, increase borrowing and/or create money. Each of them are a form of economic extraction, and all have economic consequences. Were there a ROI greater than the cost of "Green" initiative, it might make some sense to use one of these options, however, given that the plan has not even alluded to having done a cost-benefit analysis, its clear that this is mostly "raining gumdrops" and "prancing through the tulips" thinking.

Consider the incredible output of our economy during WWII, and our starting point (deep in the Depression). Now explain to me with a straight face where all that output was "extracted" from.
 
If we are spending 10x more than what we are bringing in through taxation, why tax at all? Isn't the entire point of that article that we don't have to worry about being able to afford it? Why not simply add all of it to the debt and just not tax anyone?

Did you even bother to read my reply before you repeated this question?
 
We are not spending 10x what we bring in through taxation.

And no, that is not the point of the article

If everything in the GND was implemented, how much do you believe it would cost?
 
If everything in the GND was implemented, how much do you believe it would cost?

Don't make the mistake of judging everything in terms of dollars. That was the whole point of bringing up our WWII mobilization - unheard of amounts of money were created to create unheard of amounts of production. The money part was easy, because the government just prints it up. It's the production that's the hard part. It's also the limiting part.

*******************

But anyway, not nearly as much as you are imagining.

Take, for example, a job guarantee. To provide jobs for, say, 10 million people at $20,000/per, that's only $200 billion. But from that, you can subtract all of the aid that they would have received otherwise, plus you are probably going to have lower costs due to reduced crime.

Add to that the greater aggregate demand that would certainly result. $200 billion in income, plus secondary spending effects, is a very nice bump to the economy.

Add to that the benefits of greater stability, due to steady incomes for 10 million people. Bankruptcies would go down. Car repos, evictions, moving costs, and all the other life-defeating little costs that come with poverty would be greatly reduced.

These programs are not just a cost - they are also a benefit. Good programs often reduce overall costs in the long run. Just like universal healthcare would save on medical costs overall, if you count what people and employers would save, green energy would save in the long run - in addition to being clean.
 
It's not the money. It's the total demand. Do we have the real resources to implement some or all of a New Deal, plus meet all the normal demands of people who have all of their income to spend? Maybe, maybe not. Taxation is a way of creating fiscal space for government spending.

Compare it to WWII; there, we were able to build a ton of tanks and planes for the war effort, plus send a large chunk of our labor force to war. But we also had rationing, price controls, and we incentivized saving via War Bonds. The economy couldn't supply everybody with everything, but nobody starved. It took some rationing of our economy's production; taxation is one way to accomplish that. But WWII could not have been financed on the backs of taxpayers, especially since we were just climbing out of a depression.

Money is never the issue when it comes to government spending. Money is merely a tool used to mobilize real resources. We have labor, we have materials, we have energy, but nothing gets done without money.

Alas, "It's not the money. It's total demand." is opaque happy talk. You see, money is not "merely a tool to mobilize real resources", money is the resource's meaning. It is the tool of value exchange of the real: of labor, goods, land and capital. Money is our claim upon the material things to satisfy our needs and wants.

So the issue is easily summed into two binary views; either the individual is free to own the fruit of his labor (in money or material goods) or he is like serf or slave who owns nothing because he is actually owned by "his state Lordship", who may take as much as it likes to satisfy his own grand schemes and wants. In turn, from that difference comes two views of society as a whole; one is that of free individuals living in voluntary production, cooperation and free exchange, the other that of unfree individuals coerced into involuntary production, into forced sacrifice and coerced exchange by "m' lords" (federal, state, and local).

Be aware, your enchantment with remaking a nation into the latest vision of utopia (or dystopia) through the government "m lord" on the backs of the current generation men and women is nothing new. For example, the theoretical basis of social transformation was most vividly expounded in the Soviet Union (and China) - a "planned" society supposedly organized to sacrifice the well being of the living on behalf of a future for others. Hence, communists saw immense wisdom in the forced industrialization of Russia is the name of "we". And in the US, the liberals also fell in love with the Soviet sociality utopia building romance, effusing that "The industrialization is directed like a march through conquered territory . . . . The collectivization is like installing an army in a conquered land, according to the worst rigours of war." (Heady stuff, no?)

Some even declared that that the day of the individual was dead, hence why concern your self with the number of "individuals" sacrificed for the greater good of "the future"?

And we all know how that turned out: Millions dead, but not before being "mobilized" to forced labor labor camps to clear harbors, cut canals, lay rails, and mine. Millions of others shipped to cities to "produce" without housing or tools, food and clothing severely rationed, and internal passports issued to forcefully tie labor to the land and place. Ah, but what glory was found in undernourished workers driven to death, living in verminous barracks in barbed wire bound camps while utopianists touted the blueprints of a splendor-to-be from their glorious 5 year plans.

So yes, I see the romance of mobilizing millions to sacrifice for your vision, to live under the illusory idealism of collective sacrifice of body, soul, and immediate future for your "vision". Such is the allure of totalitarian power - to burn vast piles of other people's money, and to sacrifice millions, for schemes and enthusiasms that even you would never buy stock in if it were your money at risk.

Because, after all, "Green suicide" only feels morally satisfying if all the lemmings are forced to jump off the cliff together, right?
 
Last edited:
So yes, I see the romance of mobilizing millions to sacrifice for your vision, to live under the illusory idealism of collective sacrifice of body, soul, and immediate future for your "vision". Such is the allure of totalitarian power - to burn vast piles of other people's money, and to sacrifice millions, for schemes and enthusiasms that even you would never buy stock in if it were your money at risk.

This may be the most hyperbolic response I have ever read.

How does one get to forced labor from a job guarantee? A job guarantee is simply the guarantee of a job if you want one. Equating it with forced labor is a ridiculous strawman.

And "burn[ing] vast piles of other people's money"? Who's money are you talking about here?

Your whole response is simply insane. Just how threatened are you by the ideas in the GND? Is universal healthcare a big worry in your life? Do you lie awake at night worrying about solar panels?

At least try to formulate a rational economic argument before going off the rails and flailing at nonexistent Commies.
 
The Green New Deal: How We Will Pay For It Isn't 'A Thing' - And Inflation Isn't Either



The rest of the article makes a pretty convincing case that the GND is very feasible.

The author of this piece, Robert Hockett, is a respected professor of law who has previously worked for the IMF and the NY Fed. You may have seen him making the rounds on the news shows lately.

So if anybody would like to argue against the Green New Deal, here is your chance. (Please take the time to read the article first.)

Good luck, and leave your strawmen at home.

Please take the time to read the actual Green New Deal itself first, and then read the article.
But before any of you do either one, be aware, the Green New Deal is not a bill aimed at becoming law at all, it is a proposal and resolution, a set of goals and guidelines.

So if anyone argues about the impact of said "laws", they're proving that they haven't read either the GND or the article at all.
 
This may be the most hyperbolic response I have ever read.

How does one get to forced labor from a job guarantee? A job guarantee is simply the guarantee of a job if you want one. Equating it with forced labor is a ridiculous strawman.

And "burn[ing] vast piles of other people's money"? Who's money are you talking about here?

Your whole response is simply insane. Just how threatened are you by the ideas in the GND? Is universal healthcare a big worry in your life? Do you lie awake at night worrying about solar panels?

At least try to formulate a rational economic argument before going off the rails and flailing at nonexistent Commies.

I often wonder if the people who come up with stuff like GND do when they read others take them seriously. Are they giggling in some back room? Are they saying to themselves can't believe what B.S. we can sell to the public with the right message. Similar to what that Harvard professor said about selling ACA.

If someone wanted to propose X billions of dollars on basic research to lower or even eliminate carbon emissions fine. Lets have a debate if that is a space shot worth it. Throwing in the non-related stuff IMO is just a smokescreen. Throw everything out there. Like squeezing a balloon. If someone destroys one part of the argument just point to some other fantastic idea.

BTW- Why would you advocate paying people less than the living wage under this jobs for all proposal. Why is it limited to 10 million. Would all that can sneak into the country be eligible? If some can India transport their 300 million lowest caste citizens who would consider the way our poor live as luxury. Or are only illegals from South America worthy, not people of Asian or African decent.
 
This may be the most hyperbolic response I have ever read.

How does one get to forced labor from a job guarantee? A job guarantee is simply the guarantee of a job if you want one. Equating it with forced labor is a ridiculous strawman.

And "burn[ing] vast piles of other people's money"? Who's money are you talking about here?

Your whole response is simply insane. Just how threatened are you by the ideas in the GND? Is universal healthcare a big worry in your life? Do you lie awake at night worrying about solar panels?

At least try to formulate a rational economic argument before going off the rails and flailing at nonexistent Commies.

Unsurprisingly, I see you missed the points. Let's try again, shall we?

First, the core moral difference between voluntary and involuntary utopianism that that of limiting or eliminating free choice on behalf of putative collective choice (choice by the all powerful state). There is no difference between the moral underpinnings of the great Bolshevik Communist experiment, AOC's Green Thing, the Great Society or the New Deal. Each have been "grand visions" of coercive "fixing" of how others use their freedom to live their own lives. Their difference may be in size, scope, or methods but ALL presume an unbounded right of the State to seize the material and labor owned by the individual to be used for State "do-good"purposes.

Second, your allusion to WWII is both telling and illustrative. You romance over the sacrifice of the generations individuals to your "moral cause" - WWII is well known for the draft of many millions of men (16 million served in uniform); food, fuel, and clothing rationing; the cessation of production of all consumer goods; rationing of power, lack of housing, and long hours in factories to make the war goods necessary in this vision...that of dyeing and killing as many as possible in pursuit of national defense and a new world order (aka the UN). So it is not surprising that (like Johnson's "war on poverty") you cozy up to this vision of collective sacrifice of the current generation for the promises of a new world that rains chocolate, cows are only found in zoos, and we can prance through meadows of gum drops.

Third, sacrificial utopian bromides that collectivize, create scarcity and redistribute societies output is NOT justified by an arbitrary notion of the nobility of its aims; it is ONLY justified for the necessary preservation of a government and society whose sole purpose is the people's life and liberty and security - not collectivization and taxation for someone's pet causes that he is unable or unwilling to pay for on their own. (AKA, Hey bub, you want to guarantee someone's job, you pay it)

Finally, there is NO POINT in discussing the economics of this fantastical initiative for TWO reasons; first, it has not proven that it is necessary or even useful in its aims and second, it does not even pretend to be based on a cost-benefit calculus. Its just a collection of green Santa Claus wishes...nothing more.
 
Last edited:
Good rhetorical question, which is why "all of this" is daffy talk. Congress would have several choices: increase taxes, increase borrowing and/or create money. Each of them are a form of economic extraction, and all have economic consequences. Were there a ROI greater than the cost of "Green" initiative, it might make some sense to use one of these options, however, given that the plan has not even alluded to having done a cost-benefit analysis, its clear that this is mostly "raining gumdrops" and "prancing through the tulips" thinking.

AOC basically wrote an amateur, crap proposal and congratulated herself for starting a conversation. She wants other people to actually do the work, then she'll take all the credit.
Probably been doing that all her life.
 
Unsurprisingly, I see you missed the points. Let's try again, shall we?

First, the core moral difference between voluntary and involuntary utopianism that that of limiting or eliminating free choice on behalf of putative collective choice (choice by the all powerful state). There is no difference between the moral underpinnings of the great Bolshevik Communist experiment, AOC's Green Thing, the Great Society or the New Deal. Each have been "grand visions" of coercive "fixing" of how others use their freedom to live their own lives. Their difference may be in size, scope, or methods but ALL presume an unbounded right of the State to seize the material and labor owned by the individual to be used for State "do-good"purposes.

So you think that the New Deal and the Great Society - legislation passed by a democratically elected government - is "involuntary Utopianism"? I suppose that the only legislation that you would consider OK is that which strips the country of all rules and regulations so people are "free" to live, and pollute, as they please.

And nobody is seizing any material or labor. They are buying it, in voluntary transactions.

This is the kind of loony exaggeration that makes people roll their eyes when you libertarians get on your soapboxes.

Finally, there is NO POINT in discussing the economics of this fantastical initiative for TWO reasons; first, it has not proven that it is necessary or even useful in its aims and second, it does not even pretend to be based on a cost-benefit calculus. Its just a collection of green Santa Claus wishes...nothing more.

It is a necessary (at some point in the near future) call to cut way back on emissions, due to global warming - something 99.9% of scientists agree on.
 
Consider the incredible output of our economy during WWII, and our starting point (deep in the Depression). Now explain to me with a straight face where all that output was "extracted" from.

First, the "starting point" was not "deep in the Depression" (which bottomed in 1933). Although Hoover and then Roosevelt followed some unbelievably short sighted policies, and then after some recovery Roosevelt's tax increase triggered an unemployment upturn in the late 1930s, the economy continued its recovery so that in the two years between 1940 the end of 1941 the great depression was at or near end.

Second, the economy in WWII still had unused capital and the war was funded by massive borrowing from the public in the form of war bonds to vastly increase production. This was "extracted" by deferring current consumer income with extreme domestic rationing and necessary privation on behalf of arms production and the employment of soldiers. After the war was over, after a sharp recession, the US government had balanced budgets and slowly paid down debt owed to the public...ending the payback 15 to 20 years after the war. All of which made more manageable in that the US was the only great manufacturing economy left unscathed by the war's destruction.

Third, there is no comparable situation today. We are not in a depression, we are no longer the world's only major economy (and we are losing ground). There is little unused capital. However, even without a war, the borrowing (mostly from foreign sources) grows faster than the economy - we have massive annual borrowing and debt BEFORE an utopian cause is financed. Even without a list of "goodies", the hopes of returning to annually balanced budgets grow very dim, if not impossible. It is projected that by 2024, the US will pass the 90 percent threshold wherein many economies the borrowing is so great that their economy can no longer grow enough to even keep even.

So while you are spinning fairy-tale idiocies over some magical land where prosperity just blossoms because you (or AOC) dream it - well, learn a little from ordinary textbooks.
 
Last edited:
I often wonder if the people who come up with stuff like GND do when they read others take them seriously. Are they giggling in some back room? Are they saying to themselves can't believe what B.S. we can sell to the public with the right message. Similar to what that Harvard professor said about selling ACA.

If someone wanted to propose X billions of dollars on basic research to lower or even eliminate carbon emissions fine. Lets have a debate if that is a space shot worth it. Throwing in the non-related stuff IMO is just a smokescreen. Throw everything out there. Like squeezing a balloon. If someone destroys one part of the argument just point to some other fantastic idea.

BTW- Why would you advocate paying people less than the living wage under this jobs for all proposal. Why is it limited to 10 million. Would all that can sneak into the country be eligible? If some can India transport their 300 million lowest caste citizens who would consider the way our poor live as luxury. Or are only illegals from South America worthy, not people of Asian or African decent.

I didn't advocate paying people less that the living wage, and I didn't limit it to 10 million. I picked a couple of round numbers in order to illustrate that a jobs program is easily affordable.

Do you have any real economic criticisms to make here, or are you just hoping that if you make enough smart-aleck observations, that will take the place of a reasoned argument?
 
Second, the economy in WWII still had unused capital and was funded by massive borrowing from the public in the form of war bonds vastly increased production. This was "extracted" by deferring current consumer income to extreme domestic rationing and necessary privation on behalf of arms production and employment of soldiers. After the war was over, after a sharp recession, the US government had balanced budgets and slowly paid down debt owed to the public...ending the payback 15 to 20 years after the war. All of which made more manageable in that the US was the only great manufacturing economy left unscathed by the war's destruction.

If you understood federal finance, you would know that the government does not borrow from the public. The government simply creates liabilities and spends them into the economy. No private sector assets are borrowed, or even tied up, when the government deficit spends. Treasury issues bonds, public buys bonds, treasury spends the proceeds right back into the economy. The net result is simply an increase in bonds held by the private sector as assets.

After the war, the U.S. government did NOT run balanced budgets. In fact, they continued to deficit spend, albeit at a much slower pace. There was a short recession; most economists expected a depression. There was no paying down of the national debt, either. There never is. So it seems that you are pulling your data straight out of your backside.

Third, there is no comparable situation today.

We have a climate crisis, and limited time to do something about it.

...We are not in a depression, we are no longer the world's only major economy (and we are losing ground). There is little unused capital. However, even without a war, the borrowing (mostly from foreign sources) grows faster than the economy - we have massive annual borrowing and debt BEFORE an utopian cause is financed. Even without a list of "goodies", the hopes of returning to annually balanced budgets grow very dim, if not impossible. It is projected that by 2024, the US will pass the 90 percent threshold wherein many economies the borrowing is so great that their economy can no longer grow enough to even keep even.

That 90% threshold is a fairy tale, borne of bad reasoning and faulty data. Reinhart & Rogoff's paper has since been roundly criticized and thoroughly debunked.

So while you are spinning fairy-tale idiocies over some magical land where prosperity just blossoms because you (or AOC) dream it - well, learn a little from ordinary textbooks.

From what you have written, you are the one who needs to learn economics.
 
I admit, I got about 80% of the way through the linked article in the OP before I started glazing over and skimming a bit. I get the idea. I was raised by a very liberal PhD professor in econ, specializing in macro. There is even some validity to a point in parts. Of course we don't raise the money first (as if anyone believed this) and some would work like infrastructure spending in stirring the economy.

The article enjoyed getting into inflation vs. deflation and comparisons like WW2 as if there was any relation.

Of course, it completely dodges the how we pay for it in real terms. It's all theoretical. It's based on utopian visions of the effects of the whole plan and people's work ethics.

I would dodge it too if most estimates put it between 35 and 50 TRILLION dollars in ten years. Deficit spending in a down economy can be a good thing within reason. A few billion dollars to get people to work and improve conditions in the country. Even a trillion. Up to 2.5 times the GDP is a whole different story.

This is not a few billion dollars. This is insane levels. Cut it in half and we are still well over GDP for the entirety of the US!

Raise taxes, borrow, and print more money. That's what we have. Tax increases wouldn't' touch a down payment. If we confiscated the entire wealth of all the billionaires in the US and we have about 0.2% of the cost. Borrow the money with this as a blue print and our Standards & poor, fitch and moody etc ratings drop through the floor maximizing our interest rate. Print more money and you devalue the dollar to the point where pesos look pretty damn good.

At best, most items in this plan take about 8 years to produce a ROI. Many of the proposed items don't have the technology in existence yet to make it possible, much less affordable. High-speed railways would take many years to develop a system worth buying tickets for and we hope that and advertising will help offset the cost. There is no viable alternative to the power supplies to be replaced in 10 years. All the while, we are paying people not to do the labor to move forward on these things!

85 billion to get to the moon even with inflation was a drop in the bucket. 341 billion even in 1945 for WWII is nothing. 50 trillion dollars.
 
I didn't advocate paying people less that the living wage, and I didn't limit it to 10 million. I picked a couple of round numbers in order to illustrate that a jobs program is easily affordable.

Do you have any real economic criticisms to make here, or are you just hoping that if you make enough smart-aleck observations, that will take the place of a reasoned argument?

Well it was not like you were off by 5% or even 50%. More like 500% or 1000%. Perhaps your numbers were B.S. on purpose.
 
Back
Top Bottom