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Thread: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

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    Re: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    You make some good points. The problem is not the amount of money the government takes in. It is the amount they spend. Democrats do not understand that you can not spend yourself out of debt. Free stuff is great for those receiving it, but someone has to pay the bill. Only and idiot would think increasing taxes on the rich will fix the problem. Our children, grand children and great grand children are they ones who will be stuck with the bill.

    Those who point to Social Security as a great achievement are mentally challenged. First, millions of people pay into it for decades and die never getting a dime back. Second, the return you get on your investment is a crime. If you stuck the same money in a 401K type investment, your return would far exceed SS and as you point out, your heirs would receive what is left when you die. In fact, the federal government has robbed trillions of dollars out of the SS pot and issued IOUs to cover their theft. SS in essence is nothing but a cash cow for crooked politicians. The tax and spend Democrats will do everything in their power to keep this cash cow alive. Any politician offering an actual fix will be demonized for pushing granny off the cliff.
    I forgot to include this link for further information:

    No, no one is stealing from Social Security (opinion) - CNN
    “Donald Trump was the dumbest goddam student I ever had.” — Professor William T. Kelley, Wharton School of Business. (Emphasis is Dr. Kelley’s)

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    Re: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiMan View Post
    I forgot to include this link for further information:

    No, no one is stealing from Social Security (opinion) - CNN
    I will point out that your link is an "opinion" piece not a fact sheet. Then I will ask you what you call it when someone pays into something for decades expecting to get a return but dies and gets nothing? All that money you paid in just vanishes. If that happened to a bank account or an investment account, what would you call it?

    In addition, this tax was taken for a specific purpose. That purpose was not to be a slush fund for wars or health care shortfalls. However, that is how it has been used. In return the government has issued bonds for the money taken. However, these bonds unlike other bonds can not be sold on the open market. Therefore, they are little more than promissory notes. By law these promissory notes can only be paid with money raised by taxing. However, for the last several decades this government has not been able to cover existing debts and expenditures with the tax revenue that it receives. In a few years when SS becomes insolvent, where do you think this extra tax money will come from?

    In essence, the government has taken trillions of dollars under the guise of it being for Social Security then used that money for it's other unfunded pet projects. And for this tax money they issue promissory notes that they do not have the ability to repay.

  3. #363
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    Re: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    I will point out that your link is an "opinion" piece not a fact sheet.
    Yes, that’s true. However, there are facts in the article, and links to further information supporting and defending their statements.

    Then I will ask you what you call it when someone pays into something for decades expecting to get a return but dies and gets nothing?
    A life annuity.

    All that money you paid in just vanishes. If that happened to a bank account or an investment account, what would you call it?
    That’s the way life annuities work. It guarantees payments until your death. If you live longer than what you paid in, then too bad for the issuer of the plan. If you live a short time, then you lose some or all of your investment. Your heirs get nothing. It’s kind of like life insurance in reverse—instead of paying out when you die, it pays while you live.

    Social Security is a defined benefit pension plan—a type of life annuity. It’s a really good thing for everyone who works! You never have to worry about running out of money when you get old and infirm! What is bad about that?

    In addition, this tax was taken for a specific purpose. That purpose was not to be a slush fund for wars or health care shortfalls. However, that is how it has been used. In return the government has issued bonds for the money taken. However, these bonds unlike other bonds can not be sold on the open market. Therefore, they are little more than promissory notes.
    The FICA tax is used to fund Social Security. Current FICA revenues are used to pay current Social Security recipients. Any FICA surplus goes into the Social Security Trust Fund. The Trust Fund then invests the money in US government securities. The US government then spends that money as it wishes. However, it pays the principal plus guaranteed interest back in the timeframe specified by the securities.

    The Social Security Trust Fund has never been used to fund wars or health care shortfalls. The money the government gets from the securities purchased by the Trust Fund probably was used for these things, but that has nothing to do with the Trust Fund or Social Security. Yes, the US bonds held by the Trust Fund cannot be sold on the open market (they are just for the Trust Fund).

    By law these promissory notes can only be paid with money raised by taxing.
    The only way the federal government receives revenues is through taxation. How else would it pay for the notes? That’s how the government pays back the entities that loaned money to it. The federal government gets its money by taxing us, and borrowing from entities (like people, corporations, foreign governments, and yes, the Social Security Trust Fund)!

    However, for the last several decades this government has not been able to cover existing debts and expenditures with the tax revenue that it receives. In a few years when SS becomes insolvent, where do you think this extra tax money will come from?
    The national debt has existed since the United States has existed, so the United States has never been able to cover its debts! It started with the debt owed for the Revolutionary War. So, no, not just a few decade—the debt goes all the way back.

    The extra tax money to pay down the debt comes from economic growth, and subsequently more tax revenues. It is wars and recessions that increase the debt, and economic prosperity that reduces it. Here’s an article about it. It’s really very interesting:

    History of the United States public debt - Wikipedia

    In essence, the government has taken trillions of dollars under the guise of it being for Social Security then used that money for it's other unfunded pet projects. And for this tax money they issue promissory notes that they do not have the ability to repay.
    Completely untrue—in my opinion. BTW, I’m not arguing that the Social Security / national debt situation is good, because it isn’t—just not for the reasons that you’ve argued. Social Security is actually a really good thing for working people, and I don’t know where you’re getting the information you’ve posited. I’m happy to consider any factual evidence you will put forward supporting your claims. I’m enjoying your debate and perspective, and I’m happy to look at anything you will share with me.
    “Donald Trump was the dumbest goddam student I ever had.” — Professor William T. Kelley, Wharton School of Business. (Emphasis is Dr. Kelley’s)

  4. #364
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    Re: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by BahamaBob View Post
    You make some good points. The problem is not the amount of money the government takes in. It is the amount they spend. Democrats do not understand that you can not spend yourself out of debt. Free stuff is great for those receiving it, but someone has to pay the bill. Only and idiot would think increasing taxes on the rich will fix the problem. Our children, grand children and great grand children are they ones who will be stuck with the bill.

    Those who point to Social Security as a great achievement are mentally challenged. First, millions of people pay into it for decades and die never getting a dime back. Second, the return you get on your investment is a crime. If you stuck the same money in a 401K type investment, your return would far exceed SS and as you point out, your heirs would receive what is left when you die. In fact, the federal government has robbed trillions of dollars out of the SS pot and issued IOUs to cover their theft. SS in essence is nothing but a cash cow for crooked politicians. The tax and spend Democrats will do everything in their power to keep this cash cow alive. Any politician offering an actual fix will be demonized for pushing granny off the cliff.
    Everything you say is accurate with one little exception:

    There is virtually no difference between the tax and spend Democrats and the tax and spend Republicans when it comes to fiscal restraint and responsibility.

    There have been precious few years when in our history when spending at the Federal level did not increase. None at all since 1980.

    The enemy of fiscal restraint and responsibility is not the people, it's the system. ALL problems are based either systemic or personal. If the people change and the problem persists, the problem is in the system.

    That said, the people do maintain the system. We elect liars and thieves to oversee our treasury. What is it we expect as an outcome? We're obviously crazy.

    Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary | Tax Policy Center
    Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, ...every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. -George Orwell

  5. #365
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    Re: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by MauiMan View Post
    Thank you, I did earn it. I had to start from zero—no rich parents to help me out.

    I’m not a CPA nor a tax lawyer, so I’m no expert. But, I’ll give you my view for what it’s worth.

    The highest capital gains tax is 20%, but that’s only for gains greater than $479,000. Most people pay 15%. But remember, that is only for “realized” gains. So, your money grows and grows until you cash in on some of it. Pretty nice! Once you have a pile of money, that is your income tax rate. That’s why Warren Buffet has a lower tax rate than his secretary. It’s one of the reasons wealthy people get richer—their taxes are low.

    If we wanted to make it really attractive for corporations, we would have to set the corporate income tax to $0, like the Republic of Ireland—that’s why a lot of American companies are “headquartered” there. However, any reduction in corporate income taxes means more money is available to expand the business, which creates value for the investors—which is the goal of all for-profit companies (the goal is not to create jobs—that is a political misdirection).

    I do not agree that our legislators are retarded morons. Most of them are smart and crafty. They’re supposed to represent their constituents, but I think most represent “special interests” such as lobbyists and donors. That’s the real problem.

    BTW, congratulations on your impending retirement! Good for you, and I bet you earned it!

    The payments to you from the SSA do not increase the debt. Payments to retirees come from current contributors and from the Social Security Trust Fund (SSTF). The SSTF invests in US government securities. So, part of the national debt is the SSTF.



    National debt of the United States - Wikipedia

    That is a really big problem—we are spending too much. Ouur budget deficit as a percentage of GDP should never be higher than 3%. Take a look at the bottom line of this chart. Not good:

    United States federal budget - Wikipedia

    Trump’s proposed budget is—in my humble opinion—irresponsible,
    (edited for length. Sorry...)

    Taking the last point first, the budgets submitted by the President over the last several years have nothing at all to do with the actual spending approved by Congress.

    I recently heard on the radio that three of Obama's budgets did not get one single supporting vote. Now THAT'S impressive! I'm pretty sure that Trump's recent effort will meet a similar level of approval.

    So Capital gains stayed even. No change or lowering is good, I suppose. In general, I favor people being able to keep what they earn legally.

    Attracting companies to do business in the US is not very difficult. The US has many attractive qualities. Reducing the taxes allows them to be considered.

    Outrageous taxation at the Fed level added to the state and local levels washes away the considerations of other benefits.

    It's difficult for me to believe that almost half of the discretionary spending of the Feds does not help to augment the debt.

    Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go
    Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, ...every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. -George Orwell

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    Re: Are the Trump tax only for the rich?

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    (edited for length. Sorry...)

    Taking the last point first, the budgets submitted by the President over the last several years have nothing at all to do with the actual spending approved by Congress.

    I recently heard on the radio that three of Obama's budgets did not get one single supporting vote. Now THAT'S impressive! I'm pretty sure that Trump's recent effort will meet a similar level of approval.

    So Capital gains stayed even. No change or lowering is good, I suppose. In general, I favor people being able to keep what they earn legally.

    Attracting companies to do business in the US is not very difficult. The US has many attractive qualities. Reducing the taxes allows them to be considered.

    Outrageous taxation at the Fed level added to the state and local levels washes away the considerations of other benefits.

    It's difficult for me to believe that almost half of the discretionary spending of the Feds does not help to augment the debt.

    Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go
    Whoopsie!

    SS Administration outlays are in the mandatory side of spending.
    Last edited by code1211; 03-17-19 at 09:29 AM.
    Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, ...every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. -George Orwell

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