Criticism of billionairism

grainbelt said:

I hypothesize that supporting, subsidizing, or protecting the creation or sustenance of billionaires is antithetical to supporting a strong middle class and in turn a strong consumer capitalist economy.

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Your hypothesis is wrong, because you don't understand the difference between Wealth and Cash.

Yes, Liberal Democrat Bill Gates has a theoretical net worth of $92.9 Billion, but he doesn't have $92.9 Billion in Cash.

Probably 5% or less is actual Cash.

So, now you know that Cash is Wealth, but not all Wealth is Cash.

It's theoretical, because he has $92.9 Billion if and only if he can liquidate 100% of his assets at current value.

Much of his $92.9 Billion in theoretical Wealth comes from his several Million shares of Microsucks stock.

What do you suppose would happen if Gates attempted to dump his stocks to convert it to Cash? Stock prices would plummet, probably to $0.03/share, which is what Chiquita stocks sold for at one point.

His $92.9 Billion in Wealth would evaporate in a matter of minutes to just $90 Million or so.

How do you propose Bill Gates share his several $Million in real estate holdings?

Do you suppose Gates could give the poor a plastic baggy filled with dirt from his real estate?

Would that make you feel all better inside?

How, exactly, would the poor benefit from a plastic baggy filled with dirt?

If all the wealthy would sell their real estate to give the Cash to the poor and Middle Class, who exactly would buy that real estate?

Why don't you try explaining that?

phattonez said:

Because there are more women working! Look at the situation for men.

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That's true, women are being paid more equally to men today, and people are purchasing a great many things as a result.

phattonez said:

You're smarter than this.

Banks create money out of thin air. That's how fractional reserve banking works. Then they collect interest for lending money that they didn't have! The money isn't real. It's an accounting entry. It's all a scam.

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Of course. The supply of gold and silver was insufficient to maintain the use of gold and silver certificates, so instead we now use Federal Reserve notes, backed by the faith in our government to allow the production of more of them as needed, leaving them to be backed by that which they can be spent on.

phattonez said:

Ability to repay?

Think this through. Money is created by the Fed. They then lend it to the treasury at interest. So if every dollar is created this way, and we can only get money from the Fed, and they demand interest on top of what they lent, then where are we supposed to get the money to pay the interest?

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

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Yes, that's basically what I was saying. And we rarely, if ever, see once wealthy persons leaping to their death as a result of losing their fortunes or government suffering a significant loss of revenue from its' primary source of revenue.

Individual said:

That's true, women are being paid more equally to men today, and people are purchasing a great many things as a result.

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What does this tell you, though? It tells you that compensation for the same work has gone down significantly. Women have to work now just to maintain the same standard of living.

Of course. The supply of gold and silver was insufficient to maintain the use of gold and silver certificates, so instead we now use Federal Reserve notes, backed by the faith in our government to allow the production of more of them as needed, leaving them to be backed by that which they can be spent on.

Yes, that's basically what I was saying. And we rarely, if ever, see once wealthy persons leaping to their death as a result of losing their fortunes or government suffering a significant loss of revenue from its' primary source of revenue.

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You're missing the point. The notes aren't backed by faith. They're backed by debt. Dollars are created when the Fed buys treasuries. Every dollar that's created has interest attached to it. Every one. This means that we can NEVER pay back the debt. What does that tell you?

phattonez said:

What does this tell you, though? It tells you that compensation for the same work has gone down significantly. Women have to work now just to maintain the same standard of living.

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If women were doing the same work as men and men were being paid more, then the pay the men were receiving was being subsidized by paying the women less. So the wages were equalized, reducing the pay increases of the men to compensate for a greater increase of the pay for women. The standard of living made available today has increased dramatically from the past, and more consumption requires more income.

phattonez said:

You're missing the point. The notes aren't backed by faith. They're backed by debt. Dollars are created when the Fed buys treasuries. Every dollar that's created has interest attached to it. Every one. This means that we can NEVER pay back the debt. What does that tell you?

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Our currency is backed by faith in our government to keep it from becoming worthless. They're backed by the things of value people are willing to exchange for them, land, house, car, food, clothing, labour, etc. The things acquired by the exchange of dollars have a very short life value, while others more gradually lose value, and still others might increase in value at varying rates. Basically it has told me to live within my means, and to manage my income in ways that reduce my consumption of things which have short life value to only what I need, get the most out of things which diminish in value gradually, and acquire more of what will increase in value without adding a tax burden.

Fiat currencies and inflation like taxes and death are not going away so the intelligent adapt in ways that benefit them most.

Individual said:

If women were doing the same work as men and men were being paid more, then the pay the men were receiving was being subsidized by paying the women less. So the wages were equalized, reducing the pay increases of the men to compensate for a greater increase of the pay for women. The standard of living made available today has increased dramatically from the past, and more consumption requires more income.

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In other words, businesses have gotten more laborers but don't have to pay them as much as they used to. That means incomes have gone down.
Then you also say that the standard of living has increased dramatically, but this requires more income.
So we need more income and more people working to pay for this "increased dramatically" standard of living.

Nope, this doesn't make any sense.

Our currency is backed by faith in our government to keep it from becoming worthless. They're backed by the things of value people are willing to exchange for them, land, house, car, food, clothing, labour, etc. The things acquired by the exchange of dollars have a very short life value, while others more gradually lose value, and still others might increase in value at varying rates. Basically it has told me to live within my means, and to manage my income in ways that reduce my consumption of things which have short life value to only what I need, get the most out of things which diminish in value gradually, and acquire more of what will increase in value without adding a tax burden.

Fiat currencies and inflation like taxes and death are not going away so the intelligent adapt in ways that benefit them most.

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You're still missing the point. How is money printed in this country? The Fed buys treasuries and then pays for it with an accounting entry. This is how all new money enters the economy. Treasuries have interest associated with them. This means that ever dollar in circulation has interest tied to it. This means that we can never pay the debt. There isn't enough money in existence to pay the debt. What does that tell you?

phattonez said:

In other words, businesses have gotten more laborers but don't have to pay them as much as they used to. That means incomes have gone down.
Then you also say that the standard of living has increased dramatically, but this requires more income.
So we need more income and more people working to pay for this "increased dramatically" standard of living.

Nope, this doesn't make any sense.

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Businesses get the labourers they need to do the work they need to be performed at the wage the employer is willing to pay and the employee is willing to accept. Wages and income of those who are employed have increased pretty much in unison with the governments published inflation figures. What I said was "The standard of living made available today has increased dramatically from the past, and more consumption requires more income."

phattonez said:

You're still missing the point. How is money printed in this country? The Fed buys treasuries and then pays for it with an accounting entry. This is how all new money enters the economy. Treasuries have interest associated with them. This means that ever dollar in circulation has interest tied to it. This means that we can never pay the debt. There isn't enough money in existence to pay the debt. What does that tell you?

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And there never will be enough money in existence to repay the debt unless hyperinflation is allowed to occur, which tells me my dollars are gradually diminishing in value requiring their being spent or invested in a way which gains interest at a rate that exceeds their devaluation relative to the things which are inflating the greatest.
A recent look at home sales prices where I grew up claimed to expect their prices to increase by an average of 7.9% this year. Based on governments inflation figures, relative to the purchase price of the house my parents bought 70 years ago after WWII, that house would be valued at about $135,000 today about 10 times the original price, but in reality it is valued at $550,000 if put on the market or about 42 times the original price. The reason, high paying job opportunities in and around the area. As property taxes are based on home values people who no longer have the income, retired after paying off their home loans perhaps, end up having to sell and move to where property taxes are more affordable making housing available to those who are currently employed and earning enough to pay both the loan costs and property taxes.

It's only going to get worse the more government becomes involved as more money, printed or simply that of an accounting entry will result in more government involvement attempting to produce some measure of equality where none exists, requiring a portion of society to be capable of providing the necessary tax revenue without reducing their ability to continue year after year.

Individual said:

Businesses get the labourers they need to do the work they need to be performed at the wage the employer is willing to pay and the employee is willing to accept. Wages and income of those who are employed have increased pretty much in unison with the governments published inflation figures. What I said was "The standard of living made available today has increased dramatically from the past, and more consumption requires more income."

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American labor has become massively more productive. According to marginal productivity theory, wages ought to be keeping up. They haven't. I've shown you that wages are actually falling with respect to inflation. It's even worse when you compare wages with productivity.



How can you look at this and say that nothing is broken? We may disagree on the solutions, but our current system is not working. How have we doubled productivity while average wages have stagnated? Median wages have fallen significantly! Why should we be okay with that?

And there never will be enough money in existence to repay the debt unless hyperinflation is allowed to occur, which tells me my dollars are gradually diminishing in value requiring their being spent or invested in a way which gains interest at a rate that exceeds their devaluation relative to the things which are inflating the greatest.

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You're missing the scam. We could increase productivity to the point that scarcity is ended. Productivity has nothing to do with the amount of bills in circulation. It's a simple fact. The debt can never be paid off.

A recent look at home sales prices where I grew up claimed to expect their prices to increase by an average of 7.9% this year. Based on governments inflation figures, relative to the purchase price of the house my parents bought 70 years ago after WWII, that house would be valued at about $135,000 today about 10 times the original price, but in reality it is valued at $550,000 if put on the market or about 42 times the original price. The reason, high paying job opportunities in and around the area. As property taxes are based on home values people who no longer have the income, retired after paying off their home loans perhaps, end up having to sell and move to where property taxes are more affordable making housing available to those who are currently employed and earning enough to pay both the loan costs and property taxes.

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You're stumbling onto an interesting phenomenon here. Laborers have to work harder and longer to afford the very same property? Who benefits? People who own the land. What did they do to earn those benefits? Nothing. So the people who create wealth have to work harder to benefit people who do no work. You know what that's called? Parasitism.

It's only going to get worse the more government becomes involved as more money, printed or simply that of an accounting entry will result in more government involvement attempting to produce some measure of equality where none exists, requiring a portion of society to be capable of providing the necessary tax revenue without reducing their ability to continue year after year.

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I agree that more debt based money will solve nothing. What I'd rather have is for the treasury to simply print and spend the money it needs and give it directly to the people, whether in the form of a national dividend or public works spending. This is the only way out of the fractional reserve banking scam.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

phattonez said:

American labor has become massively more productive. According to marginal productivity theory, wages ought to be keeping up. They haven't. I've shown you that wages are actually falling with respect to inflation. It's even worse when you compare wages with productivity.

How can you look at this and say that nothing is broken? We may disagree on the solutions, but our current system is not working. How have we doubled productivity while average wages have stagnated? Median wages have fallen significantly! Why should we be okay with that?



You're missing the scam. We could increase productivity to the point that scarcity is ended. Productivity has nothing to do with the amount of bills in circulation. It's a simple fact. The debt can never be paid off.



You're stumbling onto an interesting phenomenon here. Laborers have to work harder and longer to afford the very same property? Who benefits? People who own the land. What did they do to earn those benefits? Nothing. So the people who create wealth have to work harder to benefit people who do no work. You know what that's called? Parasitism.



I agree that more debt based money will solve nothing. What I'd rather have is for the treasury to simply print and spend the money it needs and give it directly to the people, whether in the form of a national dividend or public works spending. This is the only way out of the fractional reserve banking scam.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

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Manufacturing has become massively more productive, NOT as a result of greater, but more so as a result of less labour resulting from automation. Machines are much faster, efficient, and exacting then humans. Back in the 50's my Dad worked as a machinist making gears for transmissions. He was paid by the piece which passed inspection. Today they are produced with much less human involvement and much more efficiently.

Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words, and charts and graphs are a prime example. People see what they want when looking at them. Automation has resulted in a massive increase in productivity of many products being made to more exacting standards by less skilled workers who are paid accordingly, and in reality more than many are actually worth.

Where do you see a scarcity existing in production? We currently can produce far more than can be consumed by consumers, and government by aiding low/no income earners ability to consume keeps prices from falling and profits rising which allows government to acquire more tax revenue and all of us to contend with the resulting rising cost of living due to the effects of inflation which does not apply equally to all things.

Consumption has much to do with the amount of bills in circulation or the entry in ones bank record relative to such.

So we can just print more money and give it to people to spend and that would fix the problem. If that's true, then government could simply print about $22,000,000,000,000 and pay off our debt. Didn't Germany do that in the past, and more recently Zimbabwe?

If you want to use charts and graphs, show them with data beginning prior to 1913 when the fractional reserve banking system began. Reagan isn't the source of our problems, they're an accumulation beginning with Wilson and the 'progressive movement' which began in the late 19th century.

Individual said:

Manufacturing has become massively more productive, NOT as a result of greater, but more so as a result of less labour resulting from automation. Machines are much faster, efficient, and exacting then humans. Back in the 50's my Dad worked as a machinist making gears for transmissions. He was paid by the piece which passed inspection. Today they are produced with much less human involvement and much more efficiently.

Talk about a picture being worth a thousand words, and charts and graphs are a prime example. People see what they want when looking at them. Automation has resulted in a massive increase in productivity of many products being made to more exacting standards by less skilled workers who are paid accordingly, and in reality more than many are actually worth.

Where do you see a scarcity existing in production? We currently can produce far more than can be consumed by consumers, and government by aiding low/no income earners ability to consume keeps prices from falling and profits rising which allows government to acquire more tax revenue and all of us to contend with the resulting rising cost of living due to the effects of inflation which does not apply equally to all things.

Consumption has much to do with the amount of bills in circulation or the entry in ones bank record relative to such.

So we can just print more money and give it to people to spend and that would fix the problem. If that's true, then government could simply print about $22,000,000,000,000 and pay off our debt. Didn't Germany do that in the past, and more recently Zimbabwe?

If you want to use charts and graphs, show them with data beginning prior to 1913 when the fractional reserve banking system began. Reagan isn't the source of our problems, they're an accumulation beginning with Wilson and the 'progressive movement' which began in the late 19th century.

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Absolutely I agree that this goes back to the Fed. Things weren't perfect before Reagan, but lowering taxes on unearned income has only killed wage growth for the poor.

But yes, ultimately the solution is a non debt based currency.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

phattonez said:

Absolutely I agree that this goes back to the Fed. Things weren't perfect before Reagan, but lowering taxes on unearned income has only killed wage growth for the poor.

But yes, ultimately the solution is a non debt based currency.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

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What would you suggest such a currency be made of?

Individual said:

What would you suggest such a currency be made of?

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It can be anything. Anything is better than debt.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

phattonez said:

It can be anything. Anything is better than debt.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

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I don't know I would accept "anything" as payment for something I want to sell, including my time. I do accept currency though, but put it to use in a way that offsets the devaluation of it.
Live within your means and eliminate debt.

Individual said:

I don't know I would accept "anything" as payment for something I want to sell, including my time. I do accept currency though, but put it to use in a way that offsets the devaluation of it.
Live within your means and eliminate debt.

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Literally anything is better than debt based currency. They issue all of the currency, then collect interest on top of it. In the end, it's a mathematical certainty that they will own everything, not just what they lent out.

phattonez said:

American labor has become massively more productive. According to marginal productivity theory, wages ought to be keeping up. They haven't. I've shown you that wages are actually falling with respect to inflation. It's even worse when you compare wages with productivity.

How can you look at this and say that nothing is broken?

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"Broken?" What is "broken" other than perhaps the theory that labor is always going to demand something correlated to a measure of "productivity?"

If the only input to "labor" was human effort, this might make a little more sense, but we are in an age of rapidly accelerating technological contribution to productivity. Average overall "productivity" gains are owed mostly to technological innovation and system efficiencies, not to actual human workers being inherently faster or better than their predecessors.

How have we doubled productivity while average wages have stagnated?

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Tech.

Neomalthusian said:

"Broken?" What is "broken" other than perhaps the theory that labor is always going to demand something correlated to a measure of "productivity?"

If the only input to "labor" was human effort, this might make a little more sense, but we are in an age of rapidly accelerating technological contribution to productivity. Average overall "productivity" gains are owed mostly to technological innovation and system efficiencies, not to actual human workers being inherently faster or better than their predecessors.

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Yes it's broken. If we as a society are getting richer, but most of our workers are getting poorer, then it's broken.

phattonez said:

Yes it's broken. If we as a society are getting richer, but most of our workers are getting poorer, then it's broken.

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Overall society has become more peaceful, here and globally, and overall living standards have risen significantly, here and globally.

But “it’s all broken!”

Neomalthusian said:

Overall society has become more peaceful, here and globally, and overall living standards have risen significantly, here and globally.

But “it’s all broken!”

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How can living standards be improving when wages are falling, the cost of living is increasing, family formation is being delayed, and debt is increasing? What part of this screams everything is awesome?

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

phattonez said:

How can living standards be improving when wages are falling, the cost of living is increasing, family formation is being delayed, and debt is increasing? What part of this screams everything is awesome?

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Who said “everything is awesome?”

phattonez said:

How can living standards be improving

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First acknowledge that they are, overall. Because they are, aren’t they?

phattonez said:

How can living standards be improving when wages are falling, the cost of living is increasing, family formation is being delayed, and debt is increasing? What part of this screams everything is awesome?

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

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Wages aren't falling.

Wages in the United States increased 4.20 percent in November of 2018 over the same month in the previous year. Wage Growth in the United States averaged 6.21 percent from 1960 until 2018, reaching an all time high of 13.78 percent in January of 1979 and a record low of -5.88 percent in March of 2009

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Oh, and median household income just hit a record high.

phattonez said:

Literally anything is better than debt based currency. They issue all of the currency, then collect interest on top of it. In the end, it's a mathematical certainty that they will own everything, not just what they lent out.

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Until you, or another, can identify what "anything" is, time would be better spent discussing that which can be clearly identified.

Neomalthusian said:

Who said “everything is awesome?”

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If it's not, then why are you criticizing what I'm saying?

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Neomalthusian said:

First acknowledge that they are, overall. Because they are, aren’t they?

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For typical wage earners they are not. That's exactly what the median wage data is telling us.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Bullseye said:

Wages aren't falling.



Oh, and median household income just hit a record high.

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Wages are falling. Averages are rising, yes, but that's meaningless to most Americans when the median is still so far below what it was in the 70s. You do understand the difference between average and median, don't you?

Further, median household income used to be from just one income source. It's now commonly with two, which is why looking at median male wages is a more accurate indicator.

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Individual said:

Until you, or another, can identify what "anything" is, time would be better spent discussing that which can be clearly identified.

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This is something I've been researching lately. I'm not totally sold on its prescriptions, but the diagnosis of the problem of bank creation of money out of nothing is spot on.

A Synopsis of Social Credit - The Clifford Hugh Douglas Institute for the Study and Promotion of Social Credit

Sent from my phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.