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Trump clashes with Pelosi, Schumer on border security

Is the Wall worth shutting down the US government?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 26.2%

  • No

    Votes: 29 69.0%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Other - see post below

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • Total voters
    42
Perotista said:
I lived through every government shut down, there no big thing. Essential services are maintained, non-essential personal are given a vacation which they get paid for once the government is back up and running.

We've had something like 18 of these things, 14 of them between 1976 and 1986. That is more than one a year. Shutting down the government used to be a common tactic. But we finally got away from that. Sure, there are those who preach gloom and doom, but no gloom or doom happens.

It just a political trick, one party or the other trying blame the other for political advantage. Sometimes congress gets the blame, sometimes the president does. Ho hum, here we go again.
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That's a little misleading. All but three or four of the 'shutdowns' were a day or less, sometimes a few hours. When they extend over weeks, it's not doom and gloom, but it is very disruptive, and pointlessly disruptive. Point is they're not harmless stunts, as you seem to imply.

Just up the road is the GSMNP, and there will be thousands or 10s of thousands of tourists in Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge and Townsend to spend some time over Christmas in the park, and a shut down closes the park. It's not the end of the world, but it will hurt a lot of little businesses who will see cancellations, and lost revenue over the deal, and that will be the same across the country.
 
JasperL said:
Well, The Great Wall of Trump seems stupid to me and many others, and unfortunately Congress gets to fund spending. Trump still has a GOP controlled House and it's Trump's job to get a few Democrats in the Senate on board with his Wall. If not, let him shut it down and see how it works out for him as the talk of Christmas is Trump putting on a tantrum because he didn't get his way. Congress should be happy having their nice, long Christmas break interrupted.
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Is it worth it to you to allow strict controls over the border if the result is, for all practical purposes, amnesty for those illegals here now and an expedited path to citizenship or work visas for those who would like to come here legally?
 
Tanngrisnir said:
There is no right to have a border wall.

Next absurd point, please.
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Agreed. OTOH, every nation and every person has a right of self-defense.

Still, the main argument shouldn't be about national rights, but whether or not building a fixed obstacle along one border for billions of dollars in annual costs is the best way to do it.

quote-fixed-fortifications-are-a-monument-to-the-stupidity-of-man-george-s-patton-55-40-38.jpg
 
The problem is not completely solvable, but could be addressed if Trump and company spoke of it like grownups instead of children.
 
Rising Sun said:
So you're saying the American taxpayers are going to pay for millions of government workers to sit on their butts and do nothing for weeks or months? Jesus F***ing Christ, what kind of Republicans are running the show these days?
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It's both parties. They refuse to talk to each other or to play the game of give and take. Both parties want 100% without giving up nothing. Shutdowns usually don't last long. four of the 18 lasted just one day, a couple of more 2 days. The longest one was 21 days 15 Dec 1995-6 Jan 1997.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
No, that's not what Trump said. He said he'll be 'proud to shut it down' and he's been threatening to do so since he first took office. They aren't the ones saying it, no matter how much you wish they were.
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Agreed. Sure the Democrats are looking forward to 2020 and playing this issue for all it's worth but the main problem for the Republicans is that the Democrats are playing the buffoon Trump like a violin...and the Republicans don't know what to do.
 
Perotista said:
It's both parties. They refuse to talk to each other or to play the game of give and take. Both parties want 100% without giving up nothing. Shutdowns usually don't last long. four of the 18 lasted just one day, a couple of more 2 days. The longest one was 21 days 15 Dec 1995-6 Jan 1997.
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You can claim that to me and I can even agree with you to a point, but here's what most Americans will see:
Republican White House
Republican Senate
Republican House
Republican Supreme Court
Republican government shutdown
 
Mycroft said:
Trump addressed that "Republican" thing. If the wall funding came to a vote today, it wouldn't pass because of the Senate. It would need Dem votes and the Dems won't vote for the funding.
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Too bad that Trump isn't a dictator, I guess.
 
Perotista said:
I don't know about that. I was there for all of them. But we need a university expert to tell us about our moral, huh? Perhaps like everything else, we're just too dumb to know for ourselves.
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Your personal experiences/feelings/opinions might not be universal across the roughly 2 million federal employees, in thousands of different jobs in 50 states.
 
Helix said:
**** Trump and his stupid wall. the Mexican government is going to pay for it anyway, so he doesn't need congress, right?
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Yeah, I don't understand why he's fighting Pelosi and Schumer on this when he should be forcing it on Mexico to pay for it. I'm surprised he didn't threaten to cut off trade with Mexico unless it paid for the wall while talking about a new NAFTA deal.

;)
 
Perotista said:
I don't know about that. I was there for all of them. But we need a university expert to tell us about our moral, huh? Perhaps like everything else, we're just too dumb to know for ourselves.
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Do you like this better?
Defense Secretary James Mattis said Friday that a government shutdown would have “a huge morale impact” on the military in addition to the financial complications.
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https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/jan/19/james-mattis-says-government-shutdown-will-have-mo/
 
ElChupacabra said:
Yeah, I don't understand why he's fighting Pelosi and Schumer on this when he should be forcing it on Mexico to pay for it. I'm surprised he didn't threaten to cut off trade with Mexico unless it paid for the wall while talking about a new NAFTA deal.

;)
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Because he's a liar or just stupid. Either he lied knowing he couldn't make Mexico pay for it or he was just too ****ing stupid to know he couldn't do it. I believe the latter. The guy was born with a silver enema. He's known nothing different for over 70 years. Like the SNL joke, "the worst thing that ever happened to your dad was being elected President". He's an idiot but an idiot with strong restrictions because, unlike the LWLs keep screaming, our government actually works. Just not very efficiently...as designed by the Founders. :)
 
Rising Sun said:
Agreed. OTOH, every nation and every person has a right of self-defense.

Still, the main argument shouldn't be about national rights, but whether or not building a fixed obstacle along one border for billions of dollars in annual costs is the best way to do it.

quote-fixed-fortifications-are-a-monument-to-the-stupidity-of-man-george-s-patton-55-40-38.jpg
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Amen. As I posted in another thread on the topic, I think enforcement of existing laws and funding better border security through increased personnel and technology is a smarter and scalable way to secure the border than a wall which will have to be maintained regardless of changes to immigration patterns. Then of course there's the issue of how smugglers will find ways through and under the wall.
 
ElChupacabra said:
Amen. As I posted in another thread on the topic, I think enforcement of existing laws and funding better border security through increased personnel and technology is a smarter and scalable way to secure the border than a wall which will have to be maintained regardless of changes to immigration patterns. Then of course there's the issue of how smugglers will find ways through and under the wall.
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True. Just like enforcing present gun laws is a better solution than passing more laws which do nothing to solve the problem.

OTHO, I do believe that the best way to solve the illegal immigration problem is to eliminate the reasons they are drawn to illegally immigrate. What are those reasons, in your opinion?
 
Rising Sun said:
Because he's a liar or just stupid. Either he lied knowing he couldn't make Mexico pay for it or he was just too ****ing stupid to know he couldn't do it. I believe the latter. The guy was born with a silver enema. He's known nothing different for over 70 years. Like the SNL joke, "the worst thing that ever happened to your dad was being elected President". He's an idiot but an idiot with strong restrictions because, unlike the LWLs keep screaming, our government actually works. Just not very efficiently...as designed by the Founders. :)
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I think it's a bit of both. He's a leverage player so I'll assume he thought he could threaten folks into compliance. What I find funnier are the folks who thought a wall would be the best idea and that without any details as to how Trump would get Mexico to pay, chanted in favor of it. Then they have no problem supporting the construction of a wall with no idea of how much it will cost and does nothing to address the over 40% of migrants who arrive here by plane.
 
JasperL said:
That's a little misleading. All but three or four of the 'shutdowns' were a day or less, sometimes a few hours. When they extend over weeks, it's not doom and gloom, but it is very disruptive, and pointlessly disruptive. Point is they're not harmless stunts, as you seem to imply.

Just up the road is the GSMNP, and there will be thousands or 10s of thousands of tourists in Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge and Townsend to spend some time over Christmas in the park, and a shut down closes the park. It's not the end of the world, but it will hurt a lot of little businesses who will see cancellations, and lost revenue over the deal, and that will be the same across the country.
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When there is a shut down, one side or the other feels they can get most Americans on their side to more or less force the other side into doing what one side wants. I imagine with the wall, Trump and company think they can convince the people that its the democrats fault that the government shuts down. Vice versa on the democrats, they try blaming Trump. So it'll come down to which side has the best PR.

I really don't care if it does or doesn't. Past shutdowns haven't really cost any havoc, but with the doom and gloom preached by both sides, most think it has.
 
Lutherf said:
Is it worth it to you to allow strict controls over the border if the result is, for all practical purposes, amnesty for those illegals here now and an expedited path to citizenship or work visas for those who would like to come here legally?
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Your premise starts with the idea that a Great Wall of Trump is the best way, or even an effective way, to secure the border. I don't accept that premise because the data I've seen reject the premise. For starters, Trump envisions these massive concrete barriers, 10 feet deep, 30 feet high, or whatever it is he's dreamed up, and that will not work in lots of places because of problems with rain, runoff, etc. and in remote areas, which is much of the border, building such a structure would be immensely stupid and incredibly expensive.

Second, I've seen multiple accounts that a concrete barrier is a detriment to border patrol because they can't see what's going on on the other side.

Third, any wall or barrier is only as good as the people patrolling the area, because they can all be scaled with ladders or ropes or tunnels dug beneath them, so we'll need a forever commitment of people to patrol this shiny new wall. And if you have the people, you don't really need a wall.

But in a larger sense, I have no idea what this $5 billion will do. If it's to build out the Great Wall of Trump, he'll need about 10 of these appropriations, for starters, and ignoring maintenance, and he'll be long gone before he gets them. So what exactly will this $5B in funding do? A big part of the problem is Trump is a f'ing moron and doesn't know or care what it will do - it's a game chip and he wants to win the chip. That's it. If he got someone in his administration to tell us what it will fund and how this small part of the new Great Wall of Trump is essential to our national security and well being, when the other hundreds of miles of existing barriers didn't do any good, then I'm open to hearing their suggestions. In the meantime it appears based on the EVIDENCE to be a monument to Trump's ego and stupidity.
 
Rising Sun said:
True. Just like enforcing present gun laws is a better solution than passing more laws which do nothing to solve the problem.

OTHO, I do believe that the best way to solve the illegal immigration problem is to eliminate the reasons they are drawn to illegally immigrate. What are those reasons, in your opinion?
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I think it's a combination of factors; the main one being economic reasons and the other to escape unstable countries. The recent surge of migrants from Central America leans more toward fleeing violence, while historically migrants from Mexico are mostly seeking better economic opportunities . I don't think the reasons are radically different than previous migrant groups; the problem is we have a land border with Mexico and had 3,000 miles of ocean between other parts of the world where large groups of immigrants have come from in the past. To me this is more about management than it is about security; at least security in the context used by this administration.
 
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ElChupacabra said:
I think it's a bit of both. He's a leverage player so I'll assume he thought he could threaten folks into compliance. What I find funnier are the folks who thought a wall would be the best idea and that without any details as to how Trump would get Mexico to pay, chanted in favor of it. Then they have no problem supporting the construction of a wall with no idea of how much it will cost and does nothing to address the over 40% of migrants who arrive here by plane.
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Agreed he's a leverage player. The problem is that he can't transition from NY leverage to International leverage. He's like the HS prom king and star HS quarterback who can't translate that success into real world adulthood.
 
Perotista said:
When there is a shut down, one side or the other feels they can get most Americans on their side to more or less force the other side into doing what one side wants. I imagine with the wall, Trump and company think they can convince the people that its the democrats fault that the government shuts down. Vice versa on the democrats, they try blaming Trump. So it'll come down to which side has the best PR.
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I'm not arguing that because of course that's the basic strategy. I've lived through many 'shutdowns' as well and read the news.

I really don't care if it does or doesn't. Past shutdowns haven't really cost any havoc, but with the doom and gloom preached by both sides, most think it has.
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I don't know why you quoted me and ignored my point. I said they are needlessly disruptive, if they last long will harm lots of businesses around here, and all over the country, and aren't harmless stunts. I didn't argue they were doom and gloom, but maybe if you had a hotel and half cancelled at Christmas because the national park closes down, the $5,000 a night in cancelled rooms to your little business in an otherwise busy holiday season is "doom and gloom" for that business, if not the country.

What I'm trying to explain is the "no big deal" story you're telling about your own experience during a shutdown is most definitely NOT the experience of local businesses around here near the park. You can argue it's worth the trouble, or you don't give a damn about them because you got paid for the time off, but I can promise you the locals all around here will suffer ACTUAL harm that they'll never recover if the government is shut down and the national parks are, like they always have been, part of that shutdown. They don't get a do-over for the cancelled Christmas holiday traffic in mid January.
 
Rising Sun said:
You can claim that to me and I can even agree with you to a point, but here's what most Americans will see:
Republican White House
Republican Senate
Republican House
Republican Supreme Court
Republican government shutdown
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Yes, that is if Pelosi and Schumer can keep their mouths shut. This could easily turn into a Pelosi vs. Trump even with what you pointed out. Perhaps that is even Trump's and the GOP strategy, blame it on Pelosi which nationwide is even more disliked than Trump. Questions 46A and 46F.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/yoolhxrark/econTabReport.pdf

All Americans, Trump 43% Favorable, 52% unfavorable vs. Pelosi 30% favorable, 52% unfavorable
Independents only, Trump 41% favorable, 50% unfavorable vs Pelosi 21% favorable, 54% Unfavorable.

But you're absolutely correct, lame duck session, all Republican. Which now begs the question, why was Trump meeting with Schumer and Pelosi in the first place? All of a sudden, this makes no sense. Although senate wise, you still do have the 60 vote cloture rule.
 
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