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The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

TurtleDude said:
hypocrisy at its worst with a large dose of Irony thrown in. what you are really saying is that you excuse sloth and a lack of ambition or poor life choices, while damning investment and ambition

bottom line-your argument is that all wealth really should belong to the government and you don't like those who do well.
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We are a consumer economy so yea socking away millions a year is a huge damper on GDP growth. 90% of us spend all we earn and more. Your kind is a problem for the country that get's worse every year. In the Great Depression the most repossessed item was a RADIO which workers had to buy on "time" because it cost a months wages of $2 to $3 a day. That is where we are heading again. The 90% get nothing so the few can get filthy rich. It does not work for long. Do you want to jump out window like they did in 1929 when it all came tumbling down?

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iguanaman said:
We are a consumer economy so yea socking away millions a year is a huge damper on GDP growth. 90% of us spend all we earn and more. Your kind is a problem for the country that get's worse every year,
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are those people you hate spending as much as people like you?
 
TurtleDude said:
it means those who want Eurosocialist style nanny states want more money for the government
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Oh yeah, well those govts (though capitalist) are setup differently. They actually create the wealth necessary instead of just trying to beat up on the rich, which doesn't work. Also ask them what percentage of the population is totally sucking on the state teat vs working people collecting benefits.
 
TurtleDude said:
are those people you hate spending as much as people like you?
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Not if they a socking away millions that could have grown the economy. 90% of us do our part and more. Income disparity is the #1 damper on growth.
 
iguanaman said:
Not if they a socking away millions that could have grown the economy. 90% of us do our part and more. Income disparity is the #1 damper on growth.
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those who fail to obtain marketable skills are more to blame than the "rich" investing some of their income.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
No, they don't. Investopedia is the Picture Dictionary of economics, but if you like it as a source, here is one that explains things correctly:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022416/why-banks-dont-need-your-money-make-loans.asp

But if you would like to hear from an actual economist, here is a more scholarly source:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2014/01/21/banks-dont-lend-out-reserves/#193c52517d20
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Reread your links. Not saying banks don't loan out money, just that they're being more cautious about it. Here's your homework: choose a bank, say BofA, or Wells Fargo. Go to their website and look around - all kinds of offers for loans of every type

JohnfrmClevelan said:
Only IPOs. Most stocks are traded on the secondary market, where the company gets nothing.
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A strong performing stock opens business opportunies and of course the company retains a large block of their own stock so THEY gain from a strong performan


johnfrmClevelan said:
Individual wealth. It doesn't help the economy one bit.
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Are you serious? Individual wealth is a major portion of the economy.


johnfrmClevland said:
Are you being obtuse on purpose? We were talking about people saving a significant proportion of their income, not saving 100% of it.
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Not me being obtuse, I just wanted to make sure you KNEW people spend. That's the driver of the economy PEOPLE spending money, not the government redistributing it. Money doesn't just lie around in big piles, john, it is in constant motion. Your paycheck hits that bank and is loaned out or invested almost as soon as it clears.
 
Bullseye said:
Reread your links. Not saying banks don't loan out money, just that they're being more cautious about it. Here's your homework: choose a bank, say BofA, or Wells Fargo. Go to their website and look around - all kinds of offers for loans of every type

A strong performing stock opens business opportunies and of course the company retains a large block of their own stock so THEY gain from a strong performan


Are you serious? Individual wealth is a major portion of the economy.


Not me being obtuse, I just wanted to make sure you KNEW people spend. That's the driver of the economy PEOPLE spending money, not the government redistributing it. Money doesn't just lie around in big piles, john, it is in constant motion. Your paycheck hits that bank and is loaned out or invested almost as soon as it clears.
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LOL Then why is there so much of it "piling" up in the bank accounts of the wealthy? How does that increase GDP? Govt. spending is just that and it most certainly does raise GDP just like any spending does. Banks get their money to finance mortgages at the Fed window BTW. They don't need deposits to invest.

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TurtleDude said:
those who fail to obtain marketable skills are more to blame than the "rich" investing some of their income.
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You will make any justification to deny that you are part of the problem. Sorry but it does not fly.
 
Bullseye said:
Reread your links. Not saying banks don't loan out money, just that they're being more cautious about it. Here's your homework: choose a bank, say BofA, or Wells Fargo. Go to their website and look around - all kinds of offers for loans of every type
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I not only read my links, I understand what they are saying. Banks do not lend out your deposits. Banks loans are 100% credit, 0% pre-existing money, created by expanding the bank's balance sheet. So the money you deposit in the bank just sits there unless and until you decide to spend it. Your savings really do just lie around. I can give you a dozen links that explain how banks really work, if you are interested in learning.

The salient point being, money you save in the bank does not get loaned out, and in no way does it help the economy until you spend it.

Bullseye said:
A strong performing stock opens business opportunies and of course the company retains a large block of their own stock so THEY gain from a strong performan
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Not only is that not a significant way that companies make money, it's also not realized unless the company sells that stock.

But here's the thing about stock; when the price goes up, it's only because people are pouring more money into the secondary stock market and bidding up the price. Which means more money is being diverted from consumption and real investment. When you buy low and sell high, the profit you make comes from somebody else's saved income.

Bullseye said:
Are you serious? Individual wealth is a major portion of the economy.
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Not unless you spend it, it isn't.


Bullseye said:
Not me being obtuse, I just wanted to make sure you KNEW people spend. That's the driver of the economy PEOPLE spending money, not the government redistributing it.
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Yes, spending is the driver of the economy. That is why it is actually more beneficial to the economy when the government taxes away money - some portion of which would have been saved - and spends it; because the government doesn't save any of it. More money gets spent that way.

Bullseye said:
...Money doesn't just lie around in big piles, john, it is in constant motion. Your paycheck hits that bank and is loaned out or invested almost as soon as it clears.
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See above.
 
iguanaman said:
LOL Then why is there so much of it "piling" up in the bank accounts of the wealthy? How does that increase GDP? Govt. spending is just that and it most certainly does raise GDP just like any spending does. Banks get their money to finance mortgages at the Fed window BTW. They don't need deposits to invest.
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Actually, banks simply create the money they lend out on ledgers. When you get a loan for $1000, the bank marks up your account by $1000 (or simply write a check to the payee of your choice), and your promissory note for ($1000 + interest) goes onto the asset side of their ledger.

Banks only need reserves for settlement; the reserve requirement is simply a regulation that banks have settlement funds at least equal to 10% of their short-term liabilities (checking accounts). When you write a check, or take cash out of the ATM, your bank's reserves are depleted.

But you have the main point correct - banks do not lend out deposits.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
I not only read my links, I understand what they are saying. Banks do not lend out your deposits. Banks loans are 100% credit, 0% pre-existing money, created by expanding the bank's balance sheet. So the money you deposit in the bank just sits there unless and until you decide to spend it. Your savings really do just lie around. I can give you a dozen links that explain how banks really work, if you are interested in learning.

The salient point being, money you save in the bank does not get loaned out, and in no way does it help the economy until you spend it.



Not only is that not a significant way that companies make money, it's also not realized unless the company sells that stock.

But here's the thing about stock; when the price goes up, it's only because people are pouring more money into the secondary stock market and bidding up the price. Which means more money is being diverted from consumption and real investment. When you buy low and sell high, the profit you make comes from somebody else's saved income.



Not unless you spend it, it isn't.




Yes, spending is the driver of the economy. That is why it is actually more beneficial to the economy when the government taxes away money - some portion of which would have been saved - and spends it; because the government doesn't save any of it. More money gets spent that way.



See above.
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Ok, I feel like I'm trying to convince a five-year-old there's no Santa Claus. I give up.
 
TurtleDude said:
those who fail to obtain marketable skills are more to blame than the "rich" investing some of their income.
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I'm going to write out an example, because after 330 posts, I suspect that you still don't understand the economic argument.

Island economy, no imports, no exports. You own the only business, an apple orchard, and employ the other nine inhabitants. GDP is $10,000. Everybody needs to eat at least 100 apples/year to survive. Your orchard is capable of growing far more than the island needs.

At first, you pay your employees $1000/year each, and you also make $1000. GDP = $10,000. Everybody spends $1000 on your apples, and has plenty to eat.

Then you start to think, "Why should I pay them $1000 each, when there are no other jobs for them to go to?" You cut their wages down to $500/year, figuring you can pocket an extra $4500. Now, your employees only have $500 each to spend on apples; if you still spend $1000, your orchard now earns only $5500 from the sale of apples. GDP has plunged from $10,000 to $5500.

But you are still able to save some of your income, because, again, your employees have no leverage to demand more. You cut their wages down to $400/year and pocket the other $1900. Now, you still spend $1000 on apples, but they can only spend $3600 total. GDP has fallen further to $4600/year.

Do you now understand the numbers problem with savings? How savings negatively impact aggregate demand?
 
Bullseye said:
Ok, I feel like I'm trying to convince a five-year-old there's no Santa Claus. I give up.
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No, you are trying to convince a grown up that Santa Claus really exists. Your story is wrong, and my story is right.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
No, you are trying to convince a grown up that Santa Claus really exists. Your story is wrong, and my story is right.
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Whatever you have to tell yourself. If you want to believe the government spends your money better than you be my guest.
 
Bullseye said:
Ok, I feel like I'm trying to convince a five-year-old there's no Santa Claus. I give up.
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I have the one you're responding to on ignore, but see what you're responding to in your posts.

"The salient point being, money you save in the bank does not get loaned out, and in no way does it help the economy until you spend it."
What? How are such banks able to remain afloat?
Spending is a result of transferring ownership of money from one to another, even if it remains in the same bank.
 
iguanaman said:
You will make any justification to deny that you are part of the problem. Sorry but it does not fly.
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I bet I pay more a quarter than you pay in a year-its people like you who are the real problem-demanding more government while demanding OTHERS pay for it. I bet you never give the government anymore than you can legally get away with

to you the problem is people who aren't socialists or big government fan boys. To you-those who do better than you do are a problem because they inspire feelings of envy and jealousy.

I really get tired of those who advocate parasitic agendas, calling those of us who pay far more in taxes than we ever get in return are "problems". People like me-fund the citizenship benefits of people like you
 
Bullseye said:
Ok, I feel like I'm trying to convince a five-year-old there's no Santa Claus. I give up.
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Individual said:
I have the one you're responding to on ignore, but see what you're responding to in your posts.
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Great. Maybe Bullseye can pass you this note in gym class.

Individual said:
"The salient point being, money you save in the bank does not get loaned out, and in no way does it help the economy until you spend it."
What? How are such banks able to remain afloat?
Spending is a result of transferring ownership of money from one to another, even if it remains in the same bank.
Click to expand...

Banking is a bit more complicated than the version you saw in It's a Wonderful Life. Which is why my side of the argument requires your side to do a bit of learning, or the debate doesn't move forward very well. So far, Individual has put me on "ignore," Bullseye has dismissed my arguments as akin to a belief in Santa Claus, and TurtleDude is basing his rebuttals on the idea that I am envious of his vast fortune.

Is it any wonder why liberals find debating with conservatives so frustrating? It's not that we don't see eye to eye, it's that we can't. My eyes are way up here.

If anybody is interested in maybe changing their minds based on a better understanding of how things actually work, see if the following article agrees with your present understanding of banking and money creation. Or, you can continue to plow ahead in ignorance. Your choice.

https://www.cnbc.com/id/100497710
 
And, speaking of tax cuts, CBO's monthly budget report for November shows they're working just as designed; compared to the first two months of last fiscal year, FY 2019 shows gains in revenue for both individual and business income tax - even with the reduced rates being paid. Particularly note worthy is BUSINESS revenue which jumped $5 billion from same period last year



In fact, the CBO report shows that overall tax revenues climbed by $14 billion in the first two months of the year, compared with the same months last year. Which means they continue to hit new highs.
The CBO report shows that combined income and payroll taxes were the same in the first two months of the new fiscal year as they were last year. That's even though far less money was withheld from paychecks thanks to the Trump tax cuts.
It also found that corporate income taxes went up by $5 billion. That's despite the "massive corporate tax giveaway" that Democrats want to repeal.

The latest monthly budget report from the Congressional Budget Office shows the deficit jumping $102 billion in just the first two months of the new fiscal year.
That sure looks like the deficit is "soaring," as one news outlet claimed. But as the CBO makes clear, almost all that deficit increase was the result of quirks of the calendar. Depending on where weekends fall, significant sums of spending can get shifted into different months.
A true apples-to-apples comparison, the CBO says, shows that the deficit climbed by just $13 billion.
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AND, CBO also points out SPENDING is still the problem. Here's the full CBO report
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
Great. Maybe Bullseye can pass you this note in gym class.



Banking is a bit more complicated than the version you saw in It's a Wonderful Life. Which is why my side of the argument requires your side to do a bit of learning, or the debate doesn't move forward very well. So far, Individual has put me on "ignore," Bullseye has dismissed my arguments as akin to a belief in Santa Claus, and TurtleDude is basing his rebuttals on the idea that I am envious of his vast fortune.

Is it any wonder why liberals find debating with conservatives so frustrating? It's not that we don't see eye to eye, it's that we can't. My eyes are way up here.

If anybody is interested in maybe changing their minds based on a better understanding of how things actually work, see if the following article agrees with your present understanding of banking and money creation. Or, you can continue to plow ahead in ignorance. Your choice.

https://www.cnbc.com/id/100497710
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Sorry, but to be blunt you have no friggin' idea what you're talking about. Other than the undying liberal belief that government always knows best and is infallible, you have nothing substantial to say. THAT'S the reason liberals and conservatives have difficulty discussing issues, your "schooling" has actually been indoctrination.

Go to any bank and ASK them what happens to the money you deposit. I GUARAN-friggin'-TEE they won't say "oh, we just put it into the vault until you ask for it".
 
Individual said:
I have the one you're responding to on ignore, but see what you're responding to in your posts.

"The salient point being, money you save in the bank does not get loaned out, and in no way does it help the economy until you spend it."
What? How are such banks able to remain afloat
Spending is a result of transferring ownership of money from one to another, even if it remains in the same bank.
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Yeah, that's just a stunner. I learned how banks work in junior high school. :lamo


What's even more disturbing, though, is that he seems to thing sending money to the government to spend is more beneficial to the economy than leaving it the hands of the people earning it.
 
Bullseye said:
Sorry, but to be blunt you have no friggin' idea what you're talking about. Other than the undying liberal belief that government always knows best and is infallible, you have nothing substantial to say. THAT'S the reason liberals and conservatives have difficulty discussing issues, your "schooling" has actually been indoctrination.

Go to any bank and ASK them what happens to the money you deposit. I GUARAN-friggin'-TEE they won't say "oh, we just put it into the vault until you ask for it".
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I actually learned this from a banker. And a bunch of econ professors. And studying on my own.

Where did you get your expertise? SIXTH GRADE. Think about that for a while.
 
JohnfrmClevelan said:
I actually learned this from a banker. And a bunch of econ professors. And studying on my own.

Where did you get your expertise? SIXTH GRADE. Think about that for a while.
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No, actually, earlier in my life I held a series of SEC licenses to sell stocks, bonds, mutual funds and various other financial instruments - each license required a minimum of passing a day-long exam and annual continuing education requirements.

Two recommendations: 1) move your money from whatever bank that told you they don't loan out deposits and 2) sue whatever econ prof filled your head with the trash you're regurgitating.
 
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