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Should the Wealthy Pay a Higher Percentage in Taxes?

Deficit is on the rise. Any additional income tax revenue for the Federal Government has been overshadowed by a greater amount from the Tax Cuts. The "Trickle Down" theory has been popular with Republicans since the 1980s. One only has to look at the charts on the first page to realize that they have never worked.
ONCE again, tax revenue was UP, the tax cuts are NOT increasing the deficit. SPENDING IS. Your charts STILL don't prove what you think they do. I've explained that in detail to you several times. FY 2018 revenues hit an all time HIGH.
 
ONCE again, tax revenue was UP, the tax cuts are NOT increasing the deficit. SPENDING IS. Your charts STILL don't prove what you think they do. I've explained that in detail to you several times. FY 2018 revenues hit an all time HIGH.

Yeah.. but that's wrong. Look.. don't pull a conservative.. the tax cuts ARE increasing the deficit..

Despite the "tax revenues were up".

Let me explain..

Lets say you are running a business.. and you have been seeing 10% growth every year. Now. that growth.. ALSO means that you have to spend more (you have to hire more workers to fill demand and so forth).

So.. lets say that you are running a deficit Your revenue was 60,000 for the first year.. but your expenses were 100,000
The next year.. you decide to cut prices.. so your revenue should have been say 80,000 a year.. (based on the growth that was happening)... but instead.. your revenue was only 65,000 dollars. BUT.. your expenses went up to 110,000 (remember that 10% growth.. it affects expenses as well).

So.. your deficit the first year was 40,000.. the next year.. the deficit is 45,000.

Despite the fact that you had increase revenue.

understand? Just because revenue went up.. it did not mean that the increase in revenue kept up with the increase costs due to growth (expenses will grow as a natural consequence of that growth).
 
Actually, I believe effective rates for top earner went up a little. As did their percentage of total tax paid.

How 'bout just a smidgen of back up for that?
 
Oh, yer gonna git it for put up all them fancy liberal facts.
 
Yeah.. but that's wrong. Look.. don't pull a conservative.. the tax cuts ARE increasing the deficit..

Despite the "tax revenues were up".

Let me explain..

Lets say you are running a business.. and you have been seeing 10% growth every year. Now. that growth.. ALSO means that you have to spend more (you have to hire more workers to fill demand and so forth).

So.. lets say that you are running a deficit Your revenue was 60,000 for the first year.. but your expenses were 100,000
The next year.. you decide to cut prices.. so your revenue should have been say 80,000 a year.. (based on the growth that was happening)... but instead.. your revenue was only 65,000 dollars. BUT.. your expenses went up to 110,000 (remember that 10% growth.. it affects expenses as well).

So.. your deficit the first year was 40,000.. the next year.. the deficit is 45,000.

Despite the fact that you had increase revenue.

understand? Just because revenue went up.. it did not mean that the increase in revenue kept up with the increase costs due to growth (expenses will grow as a natural consequence of that growth).
Except OUR revenue was UP, not down after reducing rates. That means they created MORE economic activity, not less as in your contrived example. A more realistic scenario would be our revenues increased to $85,000. But if our expenses were still $100,000 we'd still have a deficit. A smart business person would see that an work on ways to reduce expenses, not roll his prices back.
 
Now THAT's rich coming from someone who just throws BS up here with nothing to back it up.
You got anything constructive to add to the conversation?
 
Ok, since the last several times I posted data like this didn't sink in. Here's some stats from 2017. Notice in Table one the percentage of total tax paid for the top 5% is almost 60% - with a little interpolation (note to progressives - sorry for using big words) it should be pretty clear that my comment that the top 3% pay 50% of tax revenue.
 
We finished the fiscal year with a 4% increase in revenue from individual income tax. And seen strong GDP growth. So let's kill that momentum because some loonies are worried the rich don't pay their "fair share" whatever the heck that is. Media_truth seems to resurrect this topic about once a month.

Well that's mostly BS at least as far as the revenue which is total BS. Link below shows that income tax revenue fell 13.8% short of estimates in FY2018 (which just ended on Sep 30) and it was only .2% higher than actual income tax revenue for FY2017.
https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/federal_budget_estimate_vs_actual_2017_XXbs1n

As for the GDP it remains to be seen how long the bubble lasts. We haven't yet seen the effects of the retaliation to Scumbag's tariffs which should start to show up when the Q3 numbers come in a couple of days. We already saw a 17% drop just from Q1 to Q2.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth
 
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Well that's mostly BS at least as far as the revenue which is total BS. Link below shows that income tax revenue fell 13.8% short of estimates in FY2018 (which just ended on Sep 30) and it was only .2% higher than actual income tax revenue for FY2017.
https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/federal_budget_estimate_vs_actual_2017_XXbs1n
Higher is higher - just as I said. Now your just flailing around looking for a straw to grasp on to.
digitusmedius said:
As for the GDP it remains to be seen how long the bubble lasts. We haven't yet seen the effects of the retaliation to Scumbag's tariffs which should start to show up when the Q3 numbers come in a couple of days. We already saw a 17% drop just from Q1 to Q2.
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth
LOL, so all you got is partisan buffoonery. A 17% drop from 4.2% to 3.5% ain't too shabby.
 
ONCE again, tax revenue was UP, the tax cuts are NOT increasing the deficit. SPENDING IS. Your charts STILL don't prove what you think they do. I've explained that in detail to you several times. FY 2018 revenues hit an all time HIGH.

This is one of those cautionary tales for not relying on rightwing business sites for information. Here are the real numbers for total income tax revenues for FY2017 and FY2018:

FY 2017 $1.884 T (not $1.7T as IBD reports)
FY2018 $1.888 T

That $4 B increase is not 6% but .8% which is an extremely, extremely small year to year increase in income tax revenue historically (except in recessions, of course).

LInk: https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/federal_budget_estimate_vs_actual_2018_XXbs1n
Here's the bio of the economist who operates that website:

Christopher Chantrill Follow chrischantrill on Twitter
Christopher Chantrill (@chrischantrill) is a writer and conservative, and author of Road to the Middle Class. He runs usgovernmentspending.com, the go-to resource for government finance data, is a frequent contributor to the American Thinker. He lives in Seattle, Washington.
Repeat: "frequent contributor to the American Thinker." IOW, no kind of liberal.
 
We finished the fiscal year with a 4% increase in revenue from individual income tax. And seen strong GDP growth. So let's kill that momentum because some loonies are worried the rich don't pay their "fair share" whatever the heck that is. Media_truth seems to resurrect this topic about once a month.
Red:
???? Um...So what?

  • Given the history of individual and corporate tax revenue receipts, I'm not sure why you think that increase is a relevant metric to, in isolation, cite.
    • Amount of Revenue by Source
      • Exporting to Excel the data from the site above and taking literally 60 seconds to calculate and "quick and dirty" graph the percent change in individual revenue receipts by year, along with a calculating a few averages, reveals that:
        • In most years, individual tax revenue increased far more often than it didn't.
        • The average increase in individual tax revenue receipts over all years shown is ~13%.
          • The median increase is ~8.69%.
        • The average increase in individual tax revenue receipts from 1945 to 2015 is ~6.8%.
          • This range removes the impact of the early 20th century pre- /during-WWII "boom" years.
          • The median increase is ~7.08%
        • The average increase for 2009 to 2015 was ~5.1%.
          • The data set provides actual receipts only up to 2015.
          • The median increase is ~5.93%.
 

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This is one of those cautionary tales for not relying on rightwing business sites for information. Here are the real numbers for total income tax revenues for FY2017 and FY2018:

FY 2017 $1.884 T (not $1.7T as IBD reports)
FY2018 $1.888 T

That $4 B increase is not 6% but .8% which is an extremely, extremely small year to year increase in income tax revenue historically (except in recessions, of course).
Was it an all time high or not? No weaselly words, just this or no.


digitusmedius said:
LInk: https://www.usgovernmentrevenue.com/federal_budget_estimate_vs_actual_2018_XXbs1n
Here's the bio of the economist who operates that website:


Repeat: "frequent contributor to the American Thinker." IOW, no kind of liberal.
And your point would be?
 
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Ok, since the last several times I posted data like this didn't sink in. Here's some stats from 2017. Notice in Table one the percentage of total tax paid for the top 5% is almost 60% - with a little interpolation (note to progressives - sorry for using big words) it should be pretty clear that my comment that the top 3% pay 50% of tax revenue.

You like stats? Here's a ''''stat" for you: The top 5% of the country by net worth have 62% of the nation's wealth. So by your own number you've shown that relative to their wealth they're actually underpaying tax---but we all knew that. Of course, by "all" I mean everyone who goes by facts and not ideology.
 
Red:
???? Um...So what?

  • Given the history of individual and corporate tax revenue receipts, I'm not sure why you think that increase is a relevant metric to, in isolation, cite.
    • Amount of Revenue by Source
      • Exporting to Excel the data from the site above and taking literally 60 seconds to calculate and "quick and dirty" graph the percent change in individual revenue receipts by year, along with a calculating a few averages, reveals that:
        • In most years, individual tax revenue increased far more often than it didn't.
        • The average increase in individual tax revenue receipts over all years shown is ~13%.
          • The median increase is ~8.69%.
        • The average increase in individual tax revenue receipts from 1945 to 2015 is ~6.8%.
          • This range removes the impact of the early 20th century pre- /during-WWII "boom" years.
          • The median increase is ~7.08%
        • The average increase for 2009 to 2015 was ~5.1%.
          • The data set provides actual receipts only up to 2015.
          • The median increase is ~5.93%.
Not sure what the point of this wall of stuff is. So you cranked through a few averages. A lot of historical manipulation to what ends? My statement stands, this is the highest ever revenue despite having to absorb a significant DROP in corporate income that revenue.
 
You like stats? Here's a ''''stat" for you: The top 5% of the country by net worth have 62% of the nation's wealth. So by your own number you've shown that relative to their wealth they're actually underpaying tax---but we all knew that. Of course, by "all" I mean everyone who goes by facts and not ideology.
Since we're taxing about INCOME tax and not WEALTH tax your point is superfluous. You don't pay income tax on your possessions. Not me with the ideology here. You're tossing out all the wealth inequality and rich don't pay enough tax mantras of the LW.
 
Was it an all time high or not? No weaselly words, just this or no.

Nope. Adjusting for inflation (2.31%) it needed to be at least $1.927T so it missed that by $39B.


And your point would be?

Why, to show how much BS you traffic in, of course.
 
Red:
???? Um...So what?



  • Given the history of individual and corporate tax revenue receipts, I'm not sure why you think that increase is a relevant metric to, in isolation, cite.
    • Amount of Revenue by Source

      • Exporting to Excel the data from the site above and taking literally 60 seconds to calculate and "quick and dirty" graph the percent change in individual revenue receipts by year, along with a calculating a few averages, reveals that:
        • In most years, individual tax revenue increased far more often than it didn't.
        • The average increase in individual tax revenue receipts over all years shown is ~13%.
          • The median increase is ~8.69%.


        • The average increase in individual tax revenue receipts from 1945 to 2015 is ~6.8%.
          • This range removes the impact of the early 20th century pre- /during-WWII "boom" years.
          • The median increase is ~7.08%


        • The average increase for 2009 to 2015 was ~5.1%.
          • The data set provides actual receipts only up to 2015.
          • The median increase is ~5.93%.

Not sure what the point of this wall of stuff is. So you cranked through a few averages. A lot of historical manipulation to what ends? My statement stands, this is the highest ever revenue despite having to absorb a significant DROP in corporate income that revenue.

7mPP.gif


Trump's tax cuts took effect in 2018, FY 2018 included periods from calendar 2017 and calendar 2018; however, tax revenue is collected on a tax year (calendar year) basis, not a fiscal year basis...and you provided no reconciliation to account for the timing difference...yet you had the gall to write:
We finished the fiscal year with a 4% increase in revenue from individual income tax. And seen strong GDP growth. So let's kill that momentum because some loonies are worried the rich don't pay their "fair share" whatever the heck that is. Media_truth seems to resurrect this topic about once a month.


Red:
That the point of my presenting the analysis and data I did elides your comprehension says all that need be said. TY for letting me know that fundamental analysis eclipses your cognition. I shall not forget.
 
Since we're taxing about INCOME tax and not WEALTH tax your point is superfluous. You don't pay income tax on your possessions. Not me with the ideology here. You're tossing out all the wealth inequality and rich don't pay enough tax mantras of the LW.

So, we're not supposed to look at their untaxed wealth. How convenient for them. I've never understood why people who will never have anywhere close to this amount of money go to such extremes to contort themselves going to bat for people who don't give a **** about them other than the fact that they useful tools.
 

And I have no problem with this study relating to the 1950s, that mentions that the methods were different then. I'm more concerned about the 1980s, when effective taxation at the top tier started dropping, resulting in higher deficits. I believe, returning to the top-tier taxation of the 1970s would be most prudent.
 
LOL, keep trying.
Not even breaking a sweat.



Ironic, to say the least.
Why does no one, and not just rightwingers like you, know how to use that word? In the first place, you seem to be suggesting that my comment was meant ironically and it was not. But it wouldn't have qualified grammatically as irony in the second place:

the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
But I will give you this much. You did achieve a humorous effect even if it was unintentional.
 

7mPP.gif


Trump's tax cuts took effect in 2018, FY 2018 included periods from calendar 2017 and calendar 2018; however, tax revenue is collected on a tax year (calendar year) basis, not a fiscal year basis...and you provided no reconciliation to account for the timing difference...yet you had the gall to write:
tax is collected through out the FY. Not sure what kind of reconciliation you're looking for. About eight months were under the new rates.

Xelor said:
Red:
That the point of my presenting the analysis and data I did elides your comprehension says all that need be said. TY for letting me know that fundamental analysis eclipses your cognition. I shall not forget.
I understood what you were saying, it just had little to do with last years revenues - averages from the past were interesting, but not much more. Simple point was that despite only being in effect for 8-9 months personal income tax revenues rose enough to push total revenues to a new high, EVEN with a major decline in corporate review. Payroll taxes were up about one percent, too. So personal income and Payroll tax - both tied to wages both rose. Sounds like Trump's tax bill did just as advertised - raised wages and increased employment.
 
Our top tax brackets are a joke. They are able to defend the wealthiest Americans based on brackets alone.

Our top tax bracket is $357K. Why? Why not another at 1M, another at 2M, another at 5M, another at 10M, another at 50M, another at 100M, another at 200M, maybe one at a billion.??

Also, financial industry folks often bypass the stupidly low $357K top tax bracket at 35% anyway, by claiming their income is long term capital gains, ending up at 20-24% depending.
Again, with a bracket of what, $450K? CEOs and such too, they are getting paid mostly in shares.

Wake up middle American Republicans. So worried about jobs and the economy, yet you continually allow corporations to get all the benefits of being a part of this society, while you piss and moan and liberals because you like to be angry.
 
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