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Liberals' Biggest Lie/Myth - Unions and high taxes caused the post-WWII economic boom

:shock:

This isn't true at all. Building an air conditioner has much more of a requirement than pushing a button or pulling a lever. I mean, how did the lever or button get there to begin with?

:lamo

Oh my god... :shock: Are you serious? How did the lever or button get there to begin with? Most likely a Chinese worker.. making 1-2 dollars an hour.. sitting at the "lever" station.. put in that lever or pressed a button that a robotic arm put that lever in before it went on to the "button" station. Where another low paid and low skilled worker put in the button pads.
and then you bought it and put it in your house.. where you couldn;t understand the installation instructions.. and so a air conditioner repair install man.. came in.. Knew how to install that particular air conditioner.. (among a whole bunch of others as well).. and properly installed it and troubleshot any problems. . You probably paid 100 dollars an hour.. and the technician was paid 21.50 an hour. Because unlike the low paid low skilled worker on an assembly line.. the technician had knowledge of ALL aspects of the air conditioner.. multiple air conditioners.. and proper installation,, diagnostics and repair.:doh

Now don't you feel embarrassed?

:lamo
 
Income taxes are only a subset of total tax revenue streams.
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Yep.
Businesses pay employees, and deduct payments from revenue in order to compute net income. Nobody is interested about what you claim to do, nor does the discussion at hand revolve around said claims.
Awww...don;t get upset because I understand that employers pay HALF of the FICA taxes for all their employees...
Making it pretty dang progressive.. since one company owner.. is paying half the fica for all his employees.

Also don't get upset that you didn't know that medicare portion of Fica.. is paid on all wages.. and is not subject to a limit like social security.

While.. you .. apparently did not.
 
1. What is your complaint with this narrative? What do you think is wrong about it?

2. What is your alternative explanation?

The OP is a straw man. Liberals would agree that cutting taxes for the wealthy DOES create an economic boon. In fact, we had one in the late twenties. We all know how it ended.

This liberal would argue that unions and high taxes on the wealthy created economic stability for the nation and accountabiluty for the wealthy. The evidence for that is the fifty years we went without a bank run or a major crash. It was also evident tn the rising living standards and social progress during that time.

The minute conservatives like Reagan cut taxes and deregulated, borrowing a prisperity his policies didn't deserve, we started having the same old problems, with the savings and loan fiasco and later, with W, the great recession and other notable disasters for common people.

You know, for many years after the 1929 crash, that petiod wad referred to as "the Republican great depression". It was an honest criticism of which modern conservatives remain ignorant. I wonder if Trump's depression will be as fairly named.
 
Paul Krugman's first blog post undercuts that opinion piece and the entire theme of this thread. In fact, the period 1930-1970 was remarkable. The middle class grew and income inequality declined drastically from the late 1930s to the the 1970s.
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In fact, let me start this blog off with a chart that’s central to how I think about the big picture, the underlying story of what’s really going on in this country. The chart shows the share of the richest 10% of the American population in total income – an indicator that closely tracks many other measures of economic inequality – over the past 90 years, as estimated by the economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez. I’ve added labels indicating four key periods. These are:
19krugman2.533.jpg

The Long Gilded Age: Historians generally say that the Gilded Age gave way to the Progressive Era around 1900. In many important ways, though, the Gilded Age continued right through to the New Deal. As far as we can tell, income remained about as unequally distributed as it had been the late 19th century – or as it is today. Public policy did little to limit extremes of wealth and poverty, mainly because the political dominance of the elite remained intact; the politics of the era, in which working Americans were divided by racial, religious, and cultural issues, have recognizable parallels with modern politics.

The Great Compression: The middle-class society I grew up in didn’t evolve gradually or automatically. It was created, in a remarkably short period of time, by FDR and the New Deal. As the chart shows, income inequality declined drastically from the late 1930s to the mid 1940s, with the rich losing ground while working Americans saw unprecedented gains...

Middle class America: That’s the country I grew up in. It was a society without extremes of wealth or poverty, a society of broadly shared prosperity, partly because strong unions, a high minimum wage, and a progressive tax system helped limit inequality. It was also a society in which political bipartisanship meant something: in spite of all the turmoil of Vietnam and the civil rights movement, in spite of the sinister machinations of Nixon and his henchmen, it was an era in which Democrats and Republicans agreed on basic values and could cooperate across party lines.

The great divergence: Since the late 1970s the America I knew has unraveled. We’re no longer a middle-class society, in which the benefits of economic growth are widely shared: between 1979 and 2005 the real income of the median household rose only 13%, but the income of the richest 0.1% of Americans rose 296 percent.

Most people assume that this rise in inequality was the result of impersonal forces, like technological change and globalization. But the great reduction of inequality that created middle-class America between 1935 and 1945 was driven by political change; I believe that politics has also played an important role in rising inequality since the 1970s. It’s important to know that no other advanced economy has seen a comparable surge in inequality – even the rising inequality of Thatcherite Britain was a faint echo of trends here.

On the political side, you might have expected rising inequality to produce a populist backlash. Instead, however, the era of rising inequality has also been the era of “movement conservatism,” the term both supporters and opponents use for the highly cohesive set of interlocking institutions that brought Ronald Reagan and Newt Gingrich to power, and reached its culmination, taking control of all three branches of the federal government, under George W. Bush. (Yes, Virginia, there is a vast right-wing conspiracy.)

Because of movement conservative political dominance, taxes on the rich have fallen, and the holes in the safety net have gotten bigger, even as inequality has soared. And the rise of movement conservatism is also at the heart of the bitter partisanship that characterizes politics today.
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This thread is another example, and see examples all the time, of some ignoramus inventing a "liberal truism" in order to refute it. There is no established liberal view that high taxes and unions were the cause of post World War II growth. The United States came out of the war as an economic power house and the county rode on that power for a long time.
 
This thread is another example, and see examples all the time, of some ignoramus inventing a "liberal truism" in order to refute it. There is no established liberal view that high taxes and unions were the cause of post World War II growth. The United States came out of the war as an economic power house and the county rode on that power for a long time.
I know of no economist or writer who claimed that high taxes and unions was the direct cause of post World War II growth. What myself and others said clearly is that high taxes and unions were the cause of diminished income inequality that increased the size of the middle class and thus increased American productivity and then, with more money in Americans' pockets, growth was large.

What you said after is what Nobel Prize winning economist, Paul Krugman, called the The Europe-in-Rubble Excuse.

Whenever I point out how well America did with strong unions and highly progressive taxation after World War II, I can count on conservatives trying to resolve their cognitive dissonance by saying “but it was easy then — all our competitors were in ruins!” You can see this all over the comments on today’s [NOVEMBER 19, 2012] column.


Sorry, guys, but that’s bad history and very bad economics.

On the history: the great postwar boom wasn’t just a few years after the war; it was a whole generation long, from 1947 to 1973 — well into an era in which Europe had very much recovered. Here’s West German GDP per capita as a share of US GDP per capita:
111912krugman1-blog480.jpg


The Europe-in-ruins era was long over while the US boom was still going strong.
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Yep.
Awww...don;t get upset because I understand that employers pay HALF of the FICA taxes for all their employees...
Making it pretty dang progressive.. since one company owner.. is paying half the fica for all his employees.

Also don't get upset that you didn't know that medicare portion of Fica.. is paid on all wages.. and is not subject to a limit like social security.

While.. you .. apparently did not.
I think we debated this before, the half of FICA an employer pays.... is deferred employee wages. They are wages the employee earned, the employer would have paid them as wages if not for FICA.
 
I think we debated this before, the half of FICA an employer pays.... is deferred employee wages. They are wages the employee earned, the employer would have paid them as wages if not for FICA.

no its not. They are not wages the employer would have paid. There is no reason to believe that.

There is no wage pressure for that higher wage..
 
no its not. They are not wages the employer would have paid. There is no reason to believe that.

There is no wage pressure for that higher wage..
Yes, it is. Yes, they are. Yes, there is. Yes, there would be.
 
Yes, it is. Yes, they are. Yes, there is. Yes, there would be.

Okay.. please explain it to me where the wage pressure is.

My employee has already agreed that they will work for say 22 dollars an hour.

Please explain.. why they will not work for 22 dollars an hour then if I am not paying FICA.
 
Okay.. please explain it to me where the wage pressure is.
Not "is", there "would be".

My employee has already agreed that they will work for say 22 dollars an hour.
Your cost is NOT $22, your cost is $23.68/hr when including fica.

Please explain.. why they will not work for 22 dollars an hour then if I am not paying FICA.
That is not the question, I can come up with all sorts of reasons why I would not want you as a boss.
 
Not "is", there "would be".

Your cost is NOT $22, your cost is $23.68/hr when including fica.

.

Yep.. that's my cost.. BUT ITS NOT WHAT THE EMPLOYEE AGREED TO WORK FOR. Their wage pressure is for 22 dollars and hour..

Why will that change if I don't pay FICA taxes for them?

That is not the question, I can come up with all sorts of reasons why I would not want you as a boss.

nice try at avoidance... so in other words.. you cannot answer why they will not work for 22 an hour.. when I am not paying fica. when they already agreed to work for 22 an hour.

The fact is.. there just is no wage pressure that would make me pay them more.

Okay... lets say the republicans decide to reduce taxes and make a law that says that employers do not have to pay their half of FICA.. and claim that now.. employers will be able to pay more and will pay more to their employees. (thus capturing it in their portion of FICA).

Tell me.. would you believe them that employers will naturally pass that tax decrease on and raise wages.. or do you think that they will pocket that money.. and say "thank you trump".

Think about that. IF what you say is true.. then employers would have to pay those increased wages.. but I think that employers will simply keep the money.. just as they did when Trump decreased taxes on corporations. And that proves that those wages are not "what they would have paid".

But.. maybe you buy that employers will pass on that tax cut to their employees.
 
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Yep.. that's my cost.. BUT ITS NOT WHAT THE EMPLOYEE AGREED TO WORK FOR. Their wage pressure is for 22 dollars and hour..

Why will that change if I don't pay FICA taxes for them?



nice try at avoidance... so in other words.. you cannot answer why they will not work for 22 an hour.. when I am not paying fica. when they already agreed to work for 22 an hour.

The fact is.. there just is no wage pressure that would make me pay them more.

Okay... lets say the republicans decide to reduce taxes and make a law that says that employers do not have to pay their half of FICA.. and claim that now.. employers will be able to pay more and will pay more to their employees. (thus capturing it in their portion of FICA).

Tell me.. would you believe them that employers will naturally pass that tax decrease on and raise wages.. or do you think that they will pocket that money.. and say "thank you trump".

Think about that. IF what you say is true.. then employers would have to pay those increased wages.. but I think that employers will simply keep the money.. just as they did when Trump decreased taxes on corporations. And that proves that those wages are not "what they would have paid".

But.. maybe you buy that employers will pass on that tax cut to their employees.
The "wage pressure" comes from either the employee (because he has to make up the difference) or again from the employee (because he has to pay for a substitute retirement insurance and Medicare programs).

Was that so hard to conceive of?
Apparently so....
 
The "wage pressure" comes from either the employee (because he has to make up the difference) or again from the employee (because he has to pay for a substitute retirement insurance and Medicare programs).

Was that so hard to conceive of?
Apparently so....[/QUOTE

how does it come from the employee. How do they demand more.. if what they are already accepting..and getting is 22 dollars an hour?

You think its just that simple.. and its not.

If it were that simple.. that increase in costs would translate into wage pressure equal to the increase costs.. then wages should have never stagnated and kept up with inflation.

Rising prices have erased U.S. workers’ meager wage gains, the latest sign strong economic growth has not translated into greater prosperity for the middle and working classes.

Cost of living was up 2.9 percent from July 2017 to July 2018, the Labor Department reported Friday, an inflation rate that outstripped a 2.7 percent increase in wages over the same period. The average U.S. “real wage,” a federal measure of pay that takes inflation into account, fell to $10.76 an hour last month, 2 cents down from where it was a year ago.

Please explain why wage pressure did not increase with the increase in costs.. and wages match inflation....

Maybe its not so easy to conceive of... huh?
 
how does it come from the employee. How do they demand more.. if what they are already accepting..and getting is 22 dollars an hour?

You think its just that simple.. and its not.

If it were that simple.. that increase in costs would translate into wage pressure equal to the increase costs.. then wages should have never stagnated and kept up with inflation.



Please explain why wage pressure did not increase with the increase in costs.. and wages match inflation....

Maybe its not so easy to conceive of... huh?
Wage pressure....does not mean...it will ALWAYS be received. Another concept that seems to go right over your head.
 
Wage pressure....does not mean...it will ALWAYS be received. Another concept that seems to go right over your head.

So in other words.. you cannot assume that if the wage tax was reduced on employers.. it means that employers would have to increase wages.

Which means.. you are wrong that the wage tax on employers.. is most definitely what employers would have paid anyway in wages.

Its okay gimme.. you don't have to admit you are wrong... we all know. :mrgreen:

Lets see.. cue the personal insults......
 
So in other words.. you cannot assume that if the wage tax was reduced on employers.. it means that employers would have to increase wages.
I try to not ASSUME absolutes, you apparently do, on a regular basis.

Which means.. you are wrong that the wage tax on employers.. is most definitely what employers would have paid anyway in wages.
There you are, trying to make out that I created an absolute....stop projecting and creating straw man arguments.

Its okay gimme.. you don't have to admit you are wrong... we all know. :mrgreen:

Lets see.. cue the personal insults......
You really ought to learn learn not to pat yourself on the back undeservedly, yer gunna hurt yerself. The point remains, it is a compensation, and if removed, there would be "pressure" to regain the loss.
 
I try to not ASSUME absolutes, you apparently do, on a regular basis.

.

You actually did Gimmee.. you state unequivocally that what the employer pays in wage taxes was simply wages they would have had to pay to the employee.

Now you admit that's not true.

Its just that simple.

Cue more personal attacks......
 
Yep.. that's my cost.. BUT ITS NOT WHAT THE EMPLOYEE AGREED TO WORK FOR. .
Is this an argument that your employees were informed they would not have their employer contribution paid, that you were hiring them as independent contractors.....because if not, there was an assumption that they would have that portion paid by you, ie, they were "working for it".

Yer semantic BS bites yer ass again.
 
You actually did Gimmee.. you state unequivocally that what the employer pays in wage taxes was simply wages they would have had to pay to the employee.

Now you admit that's not true.

Its just that simple.

Cue more personal attacks......
No Dr J, I'm trying to once again not allow you to act as if you can make arguments into absolutes and then build yer strawmen. You do this all the time, its total bs, but its you, and I'm used to it.
 
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No Dr J, I'm trying to once again not allow you to act as if you can make arguments into absolutes and then build yer strawmen. You do this all the time, its total bs, but its you, and I'm used to it.

Nope Gimmee.. once again..you made a statement. (saying that the employer FICA tax.. was really just wages that would have gone to the employee).

You eventually had to admit that was not true.

Now you are mad because your ego was stung and making all sorts of accusations about "strawmen".. and whatever other deflections you can come up with.

the only one making false arguments and absolutes is you.

Have a nice day.
 
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