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[W:1422] Federal Deficit Soars

Re: Federal Deficit Soars

You provide nothing but baseless assertions. Provide the quote with citation.

Look it up yourself. It's in the public record. I don't do footwork for lazy people like you.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

What is the authority of the EPA? Nothing in the Constitution gave Congress the power to form the EPA. You can eliminate that budget entirely!
So, not only is the EPA not a good idea, it is unconstitutional according to you.
Fortunately, that is long padded ground and courts disagree with you.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Obama didn't start an economic recovery. Have you forgotten his speech already? The one about the 'best days of America are behind us'? You know, the one where he said there would never be a growth rate of 4% ever again?

Look it up yourself. It's in the public record. I don't do footwork for lazy people like you.
I tried finding a quote where Obama said, "the best days of America are behind us." I couldn't find such a quote. Since it is YOU who is asserting Obama made such a statement, it is YOU who needs to backup your assertion. Failing to do so means that you are making up unsubstantiated *facts.*
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Actually free college if done right.. would pay for itself. Just like many other investments the government has made in infrastructure and technological developments.

To.
Nothing would devalue a college degree more than basically just handing it out to people. Don't kid yourself- that's what would happen.It happens in high school,and It pretty much happens at state colleges now.

If everybody has a degree, then nobody has one.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Nothing would devalue a college degree more than basically just handing it out to people. Don't kid yourself- that's what would happen.It happens in high school,and It pretty much happens at state colleges now.

If everybody has a degree, then nobody has one.

That's baseless nonsense.

"just handing out degrees" might happen routinely at for profit diploma mills, but not at any 'state college' I've ever heard of. The "state college" a few miles from me is increasingly competitive, and hasn't ever had a more academically qualified student body, and that's generally true across the country. And what 'free college' would mean for a lot of people is community college and/or trade schools, which is great IMO.

Not everyone needs a 4 year BA or BS or advanced degree, but employers are finding that they need people with education past K-12 to do increasingly complex jobs. It's a big reason why employers in Tennessee got behind our "free college" program that covers essentially all residents in the state and provides more or less "free" two year programs to anyone, and 4 year programs to those who qualify academically, which is a fairly high standard.
 
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Re: Federal Deficit Soars

And now Trump wants to give the rich more tax breaks, by lowering the Capital Gains tax.
Really? How? The only changes I've seen proposed to cap gains tax is to index it to inflation. Which seems logical to me.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

That's baseless nonsense.
Nope, it's basic economics.

JasperL said:
"just handing out degrees" might happen routinely at for profit diploma mills, but not at any 'state college' I've ever heard of. The "state college" a few miles from me is increasingly competitive, and hasn't ever had a more academically qualified student body, and that's generally true across the country. And what 'free college' would mean for a lot of people is community college and/or trade schools, which is great IMO.
But if everyone can get in for free how competitive is it going to be? The current value of a BA/BS is that it (allegedly) shows the holder is more intellectually capable or better trained/educated, both because he met competitive admission standards to get in and because he was able to handle the academic load. IF everyone gets in that is gone. My question would also be if everyone is allowed in, will colleges have the faculty and facilities to handle the additional load? Will there still be admission standards?



JasperL said:
Not everyone needs a 4 year BA or BS or advanced degree, but employers are finding that they need people with education past K-12 to do increasingly complex jobs. It's a big reason why employers in Tennessee got behind our "free college" program that covers essentially all residents in the state and provides more or less "free" two year programs to anyone, and 4 year programs to those who qualify academically, which is a fairly high standard.
Back in the dark ages when I graduated from HS California's community college system worked much like that. As I recall there was a nominal fee but admission was open to California HS grads. Even the Cal state college system only cost around $300 a semester.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

So, not only is the EPA not a good idea, it is unconstitutional according to you.
Fortunately, that is long padded ground and courts disagree with you.

No court has the authority to change the Constitution.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Nope, it's basic economics.

But if everyone can get in for free how competitive is it going to be? The current value of a BA/BS is that it (allegedly) shows the holder is more intellectually capable or better trained/educated, both because he met competitive admission standards to get in and because he was able to handle the academic load. IF everyone gets in that is gone. My question would also be if everyone is allowed in, will colleges have the faculty and facilities to handle the additional load? Will there still be admission standards?

My reply explicitly addresses this point. Yes, "state colleges" ARE competitive. UT is far more competitive now than it was in 1981 when I graduated HS. At that point, essentially everyone who had a HS diploma and applied got in. I didn't know anyone who applied to UT and didn't get accepted. Now that's just not true. The average GPA for those admitted is about 3.6, and that's with decent ACT/SAT scores.

Read the rest of my reply and I answered much of the rest of your point already as well. For example, not "everyone" wants or needs or would benefit from a BA, BS, but will choose trade school or community college. That's great.

Back in the dark ages when I graduated from HS California's community college system worked much like that. As I recall there was a nominal fee but admission was open to California HS grads. Even the Cal state college system only cost around $300 a semester.

Right, and a college degree wasn't worthless then and it won't be now. The problem for current kids is that $300 per semester, and you could work part time and cover your tuition and much of your other costs, is now routinely $10,000 or something per semester, plus living expenses, and everyone graduates deeply in debt.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Really? How? The only changes I've seen proposed to cap gains tax is to index it to inflation. Which seems logical to me.

That's a cut in the capital gains rate.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

That's baseless nonsense.
No, it's a sound argument. Normally, I would call you on the rug for another argument of stone fallacy, but here you actually present counter-arguments. Congratulations.
"just handing out degrees" might happen routinely at for profit diploma mills,
True.
but not at any 'state college' I've ever heard of.
It happens at State colleges all the time. Some of these places are little better than for profit diploma mills, even in universities. It depends on the program of study.
The "state college" a few miles from me is increasingly competitive,
Competitiveness makes no difference to his argument.
and hasn't ever had a more academically qualified student body, and that's generally true across the country.
What is 'academically qualified'? The only requirement for entrance to a State college program is to pay your money and hold a high school diploma. For some courses, you don't even need the diploma.
And what 'free college' would mean for a lot of people is community college and/or trade schools, which is great IMO.
Price controls don't work. They never have. Socialism doesn't work either. It never has. It can only exist by stealing from people. Who are you going to steal from to pay for everyone to attend State college?
Not everyone needs a 4 year BA or BS or advanced degree,
Who are you to decide?
but employers are finding that they need people with education past K-12 to do increasingly complex jobs.
Actually, I find that someone that simply has a high school diploma can be very effective on the job, as long as they have the skills I need. This includes developers and engineers. These people are often self taught. They are motivated. They learned not because of the educational system, but despite it.
It's a big reason why employers in Tennessee got behind our "free college" program that covers essentially all residents in the state and provides more or less "free" two year programs to anyone, and 4 year programs to those who qualify academically, which is a fairly high standard.
Maybe a few do. That is not 'all employers'. Price controls don't work. Neither does socialism.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

My reply explicitly addresses this point. Yes, "state colleges" ARE competitive. UT is far more competitive now than it was in 1981 when I graduated HS. At that point, essentially everyone who had a HS diploma and applied got in. I didn't know anyone who applied to UT and didn't get accepted. Now that's just not true. The average GPA for those admitted is about 3.6, and that's with decent ACT/SAT scores.

Read the rest of my reply and I answered much of the rest of your point already as well. For example, not "everyone" wants or needs or would benefit from a BA, BS, but will choose trade school or community college. That's great.



Right, and a college degree wasn't worthless then and it won't be now. The problem for current kids is that $300 per semester, and you could work part time and cover your tuition and much of your other costs, is now routinely $10,000 or something per semester, plus living expenses, and everyone graduates deeply in debt.


Compositional error involving people as the class: bigotry.

Not all graduates today are deeply in debt. Some had family members pay for the education, others worked their way through school.

Yes, today a lot of students decide to take out these school loans. These are horrible loans. You can't discharge them in a bankruptcy and these students often find themselves in a situation where they will never be able to pay them back. Eventually, those loans will crash and will have to unwind. It's just like the housing loans of 2007.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

My reply explicitly addresses this point. Yes, "state colleges" ARE competitive. UT is far more competitive now than it was in 1981 when I graduated HS. At that point, essentially everyone who had a HS diploma and applied got in. I didn't know anyone who applied to UT and didn't get accepted. Now that's just not true. The average GPA for those admitted is about 3.6, and that's with decent ACT/SAT scores.

Read the rest of my reply and I answered much of the rest of your point already as well. For example, not "everyone" wants or needs or would benefit from a BA, BS, but will choose trade school or community college. That's great.



Right, and a college degree wasn't worthless then and it won't be now. The problem for current kids is that $300 per semester, and you could work part time and cover your tuition and much of your other costs, is now routinely $10,000 or something per semester, plus living expenses, and everyone graduates deeply in debt.
I agree that not everyone needs a BA/BS, that wasn't my point. Problem is that for decades a college education has been sold to the public as the way to a brighter future and economic success and it's been beaten into parent's heads that if they don't send their children to college they've failed. IMHO the Dems are cynically try to re-sell this cliché for political gain.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I agree that not everyone needs a BA/BS, that wasn't my point. Problem is that for decades a college education has been sold to the public as the way to a brighter future and economic success and it's been beaten into parent's heads that if they don't send their children to college they've failed. IMHO the Dems are cynically try to re-sell this cliché for political gain.

The problem is.. it is pretty much the only way for a brighter future.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I agree that not everyone needs a BA/BS, that wasn't my point. Problem is that for decades a college education has been sold to the public as the way to a brighter future and economic success and it's been beaten into parent's heads that if they don't send their children to college they've failed. IMHO the Dems are cynically try to re-sell this cliché for political gain.

This all depends on what you want to pursue. Many of the corporate jobs will require at least a bachelor's degree and the higher paying ones a post graduate degree. As a parent you have to decide how to guide your child through the more complicated waters of getting a college education without ending up in debt. In 5 years my daughter will be college bound, but I've already started planting the seed of what the possibilities are so she won't end up in debt. I worked nights to pay for my education but that's getting much harder for people to do nowadays as the costs rise.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

I agree that not everyone needs a BA/BS, that wasn't my point. Problem is that for decades a college education has been sold to the public as the way to a brighter future and economic success and it's been beaten into parent's heads that if they don't send their children to college they've failed. IMHO the Dems are cynically try to re-sell this cliché for political gain.

We're getting a little off track, but the problem is lots of entry-level jobs (often for no particular reason) require a college degree. Even more senior-level jobs also require a college degree at a minimum, to check that box. So if you're a parent and want to maximize your child's opportunities, you can:

1) encourage her to get a college degree
2) discourage or not-encourage her to get a degree

The rational choice for the vast majority of kids is 1). Doesn't have to be fair or correct, but it's still rational for parents to encourage that.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Nothing would devalue a college degree more than basically just handing it out to people. Don't kid yourself- that's what would happen.It happens in high school,and It pretty much happens at state colleges now.

If everybody has a degree, then nobody has one.

WHOA there cowboy.. who said that it would be "basically handing it out to people".

And don't kid yourself... WE USED TO PROVIDE FREE COLLEGE.. we did. My parents got basically free college back in the 1950's and 1960's.. and my dad only had to pay 150 dollars a semester for his masters degree.

And they were "not just handed out"..

AND we used to only pay for school to six grade.. or 8th.. that was what was public school was.. and then most people went to work. And then.. we expanded that to high school.. and the reason is because if you didn;t have a high school degree.. you didn;t have much of a job.. it was necessary for the technology and expectation of the day...

Now college is the level of expectation for most good jobs. It just is.. just like high school was 40 years ago. Heck.. even our military won't take you without a high school education.

And NO.. if everyone has a degree.. then YOUR WORKFORCE IS VERY WELL EDUCATED. that's what it means.

Just like you would not contend that we only let a few people get highschool educations would you? Well.. if everyone has a highschool education .. then no one has one?

MAybe we should go back to having 80% of our population illiterate.. that's it.. because if everyone is literate.. and then no one is literate.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

The problem is.. it is pretty much the only way for a brighter future.
Well, that's the propaganda out there, but far from absolute. There's millions of job openings going begging that can be filled with far less than a college degree. And, not every degree is a ticket to success and fortune.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Whats things did we used to do that we dont invest in now? I have yet to see a govt program go away, so this would be shocking to find such a program.

New technologies like our space program
The perceived national security threat posed by early Soviet leads in spaceflight drove NASA's budget to its peak, both in real inflation-adjusted dollars and in a percentage of the total federal budget (4.41% in 1966). But the U.S. victory in the Space Race — landing men on the Moon — erased the perceived threat, and NASA was unable to sustain political support for its vision of an even more ambitious Space Transportation System entailing reusable Earth-to-orbit shuttles, a permanent space station, lunar bases, and a manned mission to Mars. Only a scaled-back Space Shuttle was approved, and NASA's funding leveled off at just under 1% in 1976, then declined to 0.75% in 1986. After a brief increase to 1.01% in 1992, it declined to about 0.49% in 2013.

The American public, on average, believes NASA's budget has a much larger share of the federal budget than it actually does. A 1997 poll reported that Americans had an average estimate of 20% for NASA's share of the federal budget, far higher than the actual 0.5% to under 1% that has been maintained throughout the late '90s and first decade of the 2000s.[27] It is estimated that most Americans spent less than $9 on NASA through personal income tax in 2009.[28]

College subsidies to provide free or reduced tuition for college and university.. now its geared toward loans.

A decade since the Great Recession hit, state spending on public colleges and universities remains well below historic levels, despite recent increases. Overall state funding for public two- and four-year colleges in the 2017 school year (that is, the school year ending in 2017) was nearly $9 billion below its 2008 level, after adjusting for inflation. (See Figure 1.) The funding decline has contributed to higher tuition and reduced quality on campuses as colleges have had to balance budgets by reducing faculty, limiting course offerings, and in some cases closing campuses. At a time when the benefit of a college education has never been greater, state policymakers have made going to college less affordable and less accessible to the students most in need.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/a-lost-decade-in-higher-education-funding

Then there is spending on infrastructure like roads and bridges:

LaHood says public spending on infrastructure has fallen to its lowest level since 1947. And the U.S., which used to have the finest infrastructure in the world, is now ranked 16th according to the World Economic Forum, behind Iceland, Spain, Portugal and the United Arab Emirates. It's a fact that's not been lost the most powerful economic and political lobbies in the country who believe the inaction threatens the country's economic future. Big corporations like Caterpillar and GE say it's hurting their ability to compete abroad

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/falling-apart-america-neglected-infrastructure/
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Your argument is so rudimentary it's silly -- namely, that unless the department name is written in the constitution it has no legal authority.
That is not my argument.
But wait, the constitution doesn't list any departments, so there should be no departments at all, according to your *reasoning.*
That is not my reasoning. I never made any such argument.
As usual, you completely missed the point of the argument that was made.

Congress can certainly create executive departments. However, it can ONLY create executive departments that it has the authority to create!

Nothing gave Congress the authority to create the EPA. Congress has no authority to manage the 'environment'. No court can give them that authority.

There are a lot of such agencies Congress never had authority to create. They never had authority to pass laws in such areas. I just happened to choose the EPA as an example.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

The problem is.. it is pretty much the only way for a brighter future.

No, it isn't. While an education can be useful, it doesn't have to come from a college or a university. There are quite a few people making very good money and are happy in their work that have no college diploma at all. A few are among the richest men in the world.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

Well, that's the propaganda out there, but far from absolute. There's millions of job openings going begging that can be filled with far less than a college degree. And, not every degree is a ticket to success and fortune.

Absolute? no.

Well documented? Yes.

https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/08/17/study-benefits-of-a-college-degree-are-historically-high

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/06/24/benefits-of-college-still-outweigh-costs-fed-study-says

Some newly minted college graduates struggle to find work. Others accept jobs for which they feel overqualified. Student debt, meanwhile, has topped $1 trillion.

It’s enough to create a wave of questions about whether a college education is still worth it.

A new set of income statistics answers those questions quite clearly: Yes, college is worth it, and it’s not even close. For all the struggles that many young college graduates face, a four-year degree has probably never been more valuable.

The pay gap between college graduates and everyone else reached a record high last year, according to the new data, which is based on an analysis of Labor Department statistics by the Economic Policy Institute in Washington. Americans with four-year college degrees made 98 percent more an hour on average in 2013 than people without a degree. That’s up from 89 percent five years earlier, 85 percent a decade earlier and 64 percent in the early 1980s.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/27/upshot/is-college-worth-it-clearly-new-data-say.html
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

No, it isn't. While an education can be useful, it doesn't have to come from a college or a university. There are quite a few people making very good money and are happy in their work that have no college diploma at all. A few are among the richest men in the world.

That's not what all studies and research says.

The pay gap between college graduates and everyone else reached a record high last year, according to the new data, which is based on an analysis of Labor Department statistics by the Economic Policy Institute in Washington. Americans with four-year college degrees made 98 percent more an hour on average in 2013 than people without a degree. That’s up from 89 percent five years earlier, 85 percent a decade earlier and 64 percent in the early 1980s.

But you keep perpetuating the myth...

I am sure that years ago.. people were stating "well.. whats the use of READING"... heck I don't need to read to get a good job"

Times have changed... either you change to those times.. or well.. you get left behind. If you don't have a college degree.. its a good chance you are going to get left behind in the US economy.
 
Re: Federal Deficit Soars

This all depends on what you want to pursue. Many of the corporate jobs will require at least a bachelor's degree and the higher paying ones a post graduate degree.
These are often requirements listed by mindless bureaucrats in HR departments. Some jobs require an advanced degree, such becoming a medical doctor or a lawyer. These, however, don't necessarily pay well or have desirable working conditions. I have seen many lawyers poor as church mice. They can barely afford an office. I have seen many doctors quite because of the government interference going on in health care right now. They've had it with the government bureaucracy. Meanwhile, a lot of very talented engineers with no college degree are making loads of money building stuff that you use every day.
As a parent you have to decide how to guide your child through the more complicated waters of getting a college education without ending up in debt.
If you want to send your kid to college, indeed you do.
In 5 years my daughter will be college bound, but I've already started planting the seed of what the possibilities are so she won't end up in debt.
Good. She'll not have to carry that burden around.
I worked nights to pay for my education but that's getting much harder for people to do nowadays as the costs rise.
It's harder, but it's not impossible.
 
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