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Trump IRS will move to block blue-state workarounds for state, local tax deductions

Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Actually the likely result with be DECREASING the ability of less financially fortunate states to gain ground (as in my state which is extremely red).. as there is less incentive for taxpayers to invest in the state in terms of education and infrastructure.

I think we'll have to leave the above as simple disagreement.

Sure.. the many on this board would like to think that its just a coincidence that the states that have the most people that need welfare, that have the most unemployment, lower wages, and have the worse education rates.. also are the states that have some of the lowest taxes and also spend the least on education and infrastructure.

Objective, rationale people understand that its not a coincidence.


Naturally the above can be characterized as completely opposite depending on exactly which facts you deem important. I never said the situation was a coincidence, and I'm objective, rational, and fairly highly educated. I also happen to prefer living where I do. I made that choice deliberately. We don't have huge debt here in Virginia, and we can honor our commitments without shaking down the paper boy.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

LOL Except that the fact is that it is the Red States that keep their taxes low by depriving citizens of services and sponging off the Federal Govt. to make up the slack.

2018-most-least-dependent-on-federal-gov.png

We don't throw our trash into the street. We don't have huge debt, and we don't have that huge debt while building all that stuff you're crowing about on the backs of others. We don't need a ****ing subway where I live, and our garbage is collected in cans at the curb. You know, at this time of year around here it's amazingly green and lush, and it's nearly everywhere. The air and water are clean. In short, I sincerely believe YOU are deprived. Frankly, if you don't like the elimination of the subject deduction, move or see if you can change it. Good luck getting a left wing state or local government to cut your taxes.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Well, no. This eliminates a state-exploited subsidy that allows states to impose high taxes and shift the burden to the federal government and everyone else. It's a little game high tax states play to keep the wealthy in their state and paying taxes - to that state, at everyone else's expense.

Well no, why would the wealthy stay in so 'abusive' a high tax state when they could 'flee' to a lower tax red state AND be subsidized by the Blue states??? They should have already left the state by now if that were the case... :roll:

No the Blue states provide a much better set of essential services the red states starve out. That costs money. No, sending MORE tax money to the E-Vile federal gubmint is what most conservatives abhor (well THEY abhor doing so, they apparently love OTHERS sending in more taxes to prop up their hot mess of a state)

The Cons should be copying the progressive states and keeping the money at home... away from the swamp, away from the pork feeding bastards.

Take a look at the poster child for rabid right economic theory- cut taxes on corporations, create large incentives (bribes) for businesses to move to our state. Cut all spending to the bare bone, run an constant deficit, rank at the bottom on teacher pay, infrastructure maintenance, medicare, law enforcement pay...

But do pass a bill to make the 10 commandments an historic document like the Magna Carta so it can be displayed on government property... :doh

No blue states have a better idea- keep the most money local to spend as the state sees is best rather than the 'swamp' creatures. Ensure the well being of your citizens and maintain the standard of living. Be the buffer between the people in your state and the sometimes extremists policies of an 'over-reaching' federal government... :peace
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

We don't throw our trash into the street. We don't have huge debt, and we don't have that huge debt while building all that stuff you're crowing about on the backs of others. We don't need a ****ing subway where I live, and our garbage is collected in cans at the curb. You know, at this time of year around here it's amazingly green and lush, and it's nearly everywhere. The air and water are clean. In short, I sincerely believe YOU are deprived. Frankly, if you don't like the elimination of the subject deduction, move or see if you can change it. Good luck getting a left wing state or local government to cut your taxes.

You don't need subways but you do need someone to pay for your roads. Next door to where you live, West Virginia, a third of the people are on Medicaid. I'm not Mitt Romney, so I won't call them moochers but they should be more appreciative of the other people who pay their bills.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

You don't need subways but you do need someone to pay for your roads. Next door to where you live, West Virginia, a third of the people are on Medicaid. I'm not Mitt Romney, so I won't call them moochers but they should be more appreciative of the other people who pay their bills.

How do you know that 1/3 of the people NEED Medicaid and what the states would do without it? Most would solve the problem but then again you always want a massive central govt. and really could care less about the deficits and debt. Other people paying their bills? That would be the radical left which is why you want your local and state taxes deducted from your federal taxes so that other people will pay for those federal obligations
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

How do you know that 1/3 of the people NEED Medicaid and what the states would do without it? Most would solve the problem but then again you always want a massive central govt. and really could care less about the deficits and debt. Other people paying their bills? That would be the radical left which is why you want your local and state taxes deducted from your federal taxes so that other people will pay for those federal obligations
What you wrote would be laughable if it weren't so sad and cruel. You contend that poor states like West Virginia would provide health services for their poor, absent Medicaid. You don't know that -- and the notion is ridiculous, but you throw it out there as an excuse for selfishness. Before Medicaid, the poor couldn't get health insurance nor adequate health care. That is why Medicaid was created -- as a reaction to the poor conditions that existed. But you think that eliminating Medicaid will miraculously give the poor states the push they need to create their own program. That view is either naive or woefully dishonest.

Con's opposition to programs helping the less fortunate, from food stamps to Medicaid, is usually framed in monetary terms. It's along the lines of when Senator Orrin Hatch, was challenged about Congress’s failure to take action on the Children’s Health Insurance Program, that covers nearly nine million children. Hatch declared that "the reason CHIP’s having trouble is that we don’t have money anymore" -- right before voting for one of the largest tax-cuts in history.

But is Con's and GOP's opposition really about the money? No, it’s about the cruelty. This cruelty isn't a bug, it's a feature of his/their conservative ideology. This has become crystal clear over the past few years that the suffering imposed by Republican opposition to safety-net programs is designed to inflict cruelty while not saving money. Remember Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act? The Supreme Court allowed states to opt out of this expansion. But accepting expansion should have been a no-brainer for every state: The federal government would initially pay the full cost, and even in the long run it would pay 90% -- not only caring for citizen's health but bringing money and jobs into state economies. Yet 18 states, all of them with Republican-controlled legislatures, governors or both, still haven’t expanded Medicaid. Why? There is no explanation except that conservatives simply don’t want lower-income families to have access to health care and are actually willing to hurt their own states’ economies to deny them that access.

DP's own Conservative would probably reply that taking away this benefit would force those freeloaders to get jobs, so I'll beat him to the punch. The reality is that a vast majority of adult Medicaid recipients are in families where at least one adult is working, and the rest are either disabled; caregivers to other family members or students. The population of Medicaid recipients who "ought" to be working but aren’t is very small, and the money that states could save by denying them coverage is trivial.

More on these lines is the GOP's effort to weaken Obamacare. The GOP's sabotage of the Affordable Care Act will lead to 6.4 million fewer Americans with health insurance, while the federal bill for coverage rises by some $33 billion per year.

This is yet another example of the differences between the two parties. Democrats want to strengthen the social safety net; Republicans want to weaken it -- even if it costs more money.
 
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Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

What you wrote would be laughable if it weren't so sad and cruel. You contend that poor states like West Virginia would provide health services for their poor, absent Medicaid. You don't know that -- and the notion is ridiculous, but you throw it out there as an excuse for selfishness. Before Medicaid, the poor couldn't get health insurance nor adequate health care. That is why Medicaid was created -- as a reaction to the poor conditions that existed. But you think that eliminating Medicaid will miraculously give the poor states the push they need to create their own program. That view is either naive or woefully dishonest.

Con's opposition to programs helping the less fortunate, from food stamps to Medicaid, is usually framed in monetary terms. It's along the lines of when Senator Orrin Hatch, was challenged about Congress’s failure to take action on the Children’s Health Insurance Program, that covers nearly nine million children. Hatch declared that "the reason CHIP’s having trouble is that we don’t have money anymore" -- right before voting for one of the largest tax-cuts in history.

But is Con's and GOP's opposition really about the money? No, it’s about the cruelty. This cruelty isn't a bug, it's a feature of his/their conservative ideology. This has become crystal clear over the past few years that the suffering imposed by Republican opposition to safety-net programs is designed to inflict cruelty while not saving money. Remember Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act? The Supreme Court allowed states to opt out of this expansion. But accepting expansion should have been a no-brainer for every state: The federal government would initially pay the full cost, and even in the long run it would pay 90% -- not only caring for citizen's health but bringing money and jobs into state economies. Yet 18 states, all of them with Republican-controlled legislatures, governors or both, still haven’t expanded Medicaid. Why? There is no explanation except that conservatives simply don’t want lower-income families to have access to health care and are actually willing to hurt their own states’ economies to deny them that access.

DP's own Conservative would probably reply that taking away this benefit would force those freeloaders to get jobs, so I'll beat him to the punch. The reality is that a vast majority of adult Medicaid recipients are in families where at least one adult is working, and the rest are either disabled; caregivers to other family members or students. The population of Medicaid recipients who "ought" to be working but aren’t is very small, and the money that states could save by denying them coverage is trivial.

More on these lines is the GOP's effort to weaken Obamacare. The GOP's sabotage of the Affordable Care Act will lead to 6.4 million fewer Americans with health insurance, while the federal bill for coverage rises by some $33 billion per year.

This is yet another example of the differences between the two parties. Democrats want to strengthen the social safety net; Republicans want to weaken it -- even if it costs more money.

Yep no question about it, the role of the Federal Govt. is a lot different to a liberal than history and our Founders created. Interesting how spending IN THE NAME OF COMPASSION is always justification for giving the federal bureaucrats more tax dollars to buy votes.

You simply don't have a clue about civics or the true responsibilities of the Federal State and Local governments. What the left has done is create people like you who justify social spending at the federal level while ignoring that social problems are state and local responsibilities. One of these days you are going to get it and hope I am here to see exactly that

Fact is you expect the federal bureaucrats to provide for personal responsibility issues as you totally ignore the inefficiencies of the Federal Govt. Suggest you move to a country more suitable to that socialist ideology you spout and see how green the grass is there
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Yep no question about it, the role of the Federal Govt. is a lot different to a liberal than history and our Founders created. Interesting how spending IN THE NAME OF COMPASSION is always justification for giving the federal bureaucrats more tax dollars to buy votes.

You simply don't have a clue about civics or the true responsibilities of the Federal State and Local governments. What the left has done is create people like you who justify social spending at the federal level while ignoring that social problems are state and local responsibilities. One of these days you are going to get it and hope I am here to see exactly that

Fact is you expect the federal bureaucrats to provide for personal responsibility issues as you totally ignore the inefficiencies of the Federal Govt. Suggest you move to a country more suitable to that socialist ideology you spout and see how green the grass is there

"Buying votes" -- electing representatives that promise to make the lives of their constituents better. In the late 19th century and early 20th century, elected officials were in the pocket of company owners who supported child labor, suppression of organized labor and supported low wages. Workers realized that they had the numbers to replace those elected officials with ones that represented their interests.

Regarding buying votes, it doesn't seem to bother you when Republican donors buy representatives to cut their taxes.

While you try to invoke the founders of the nation as an argument that programs like Medicaid, SNAP, etc. belong at the local level, that ship has long sailed. There is no constitutional argument to be made. The Courts have repeatedly ruled that Congress has the authority to provide federal programs. As such, the only issue is whether there is merit in providing aide to the needy. I argue that it is obvious that doing so lifts the suffering of the many -- and it overall better for the country.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

"Buying votes" -- electing representatives that promise to make the lives of their constituents better. In the late 19th century and early 20th century, elected officials were in the pocket of company owners who supported child labor, suppression of organized labor and supported low wages. Workers realized that they had the numbers to replace those elected officials with ones that represented their interests.

Regarding buying votes, it doesn't seem to bother you when Republican donors buy representatives to cut their taxes.

While you try to invoke the founders of the nation as an argument that programs like Medicaid, SNAP, etc. belong at the local level, that ship has long sailed. There is no constitutional argument to be made. The Courts have repeatedly ruled that Congress has the authority to provide federal programs. As such, the only issue is whether there is merit in providing aide to the needy. I argue that it is obvious that doing so lifts the suffering of the many -- and it overall better for the country.

Got it, 2 Senators out of 100 are going to make lives better for the people of your state while your elected officials in those states especially with term limits are ignored. That is liberal logic and why you have zero credibility. Stop thinking with your heart and look at the results, 21 trillion in debt mostly because of people like you where 60% of the budget is entitlement spending on social programs.

Yes, the Federal govt. has the authority but when is the Federal Govt. going to solve those problems? How much more are you willing to send the Federal govt. out of your money that could go to the states to solve those social problems everywhere else but your state?

You simply have no idea as to the role of the various governments you have, the taxes you pay, or their purpose. You support spending in the name of compassion because it makes you feel good but does nothing but add to the debt while creating more entitlements thus bigger federal govt.

You still don't seem to get it, where does the money come from to fund those federal social programs and why isn't that money kept in the states to solve your own problems? You do have term limits in your state, right? You don't like your state govt. and don't believe they are solving your social problems, why do you believe it is the federal government's role to get involved and why aren't you doing something about your state and local governments
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

"That is liberal logic"
"You simply have no idea"
"You still don't seem to get it"

The above is essentially the message of Con's posts. If you disagree, you're stupid.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Well no, why would the wealthy stay in so 'abusive' a high tax state when they could 'flee' to a lower tax red state AND be subsidized by the Blue states??? They should have already left the state by now if that were the case... :roll:

No the Blue states provide a much better set of essential services the red states starve out. That costs money. No, sending MORE tax money to the E-Vile federal gubmint is what most conservatives abhor (well THEY abhor doing so, they apparently love OTHERS sending in more taxes to prop up their hot mess of a state)

The Cons should be copying the progressive states and keeping the money at home... away from the swamp, away from the pork feeding bastards.

Take a look at the poster child for rabid right economic theory- cut taxes on corporations, create large incentives (bribes) for businesses to move to our state. Cut all spending to the bare bone, run an constant deficit, rank at the bottom on teacher pay, infrastructure maintenance, medicare, law enforcement pay...

But do pass a bill to make the 10 commandments an historic document like the Magna Carta so it can be displayed on government property... :doh

No blue states have a better idea- keep the most money local to spend as the state sees is best rather than the 'swamp' creatures. Ensure the well being of your citizens and maintain the standard of living. Be the buffer between the people in your state and the sometimes extremists policies of an 'over-reaching' federal government... :peace

I find the correspondence between high tax states and high debt states striking. Seems like they're spending even more than their already high taxes will permit. Add to that the population is shifting in a southerly direction, and I think things are not exactly how you portray them.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

You don't need subways but you do need someone to pay for your roads. Next door to where you live, West Virginia, a third of the people are on Medicaid. I'm not Mitt Romney, so I won't call them moochers but they should be more appreciative of the other people who pay their bills.

Appalachia has always been a depressed area regardless of policies and administrations. Roads in Virginia are well maintained on a pay as we go basis. I Don't see a huge difference between moochers and deplorable, all in all.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Why do you believe that getting a deduction on your taxes is a subsidiy?

Do you believe that because I can deduct business expenses from my taxable income.. that the federal government is subsidizing my business?.

What, obviously you are not in business, business expenses are spent in an attempt to make profit, remember profits are taxed.

Reducing federal taxable income by the amount paid to the states in income taxes is a subsidy to the states. Why stop at state income and property taxes? Lets deduct sales tax, and use taxes from both federal and state income taxes.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

What, obviously you are not in business, business expenses are spent in an attempt to make profit, remember profits are taxed.

Reducing federal taxable income by the amount paid to the states in income taxes is a subsidy to the states. Why stop at state income and property taxes? Lets deduct sales tax, and use taxes from both federal and state income taxes.

Actually I am in business.. I own several companies.

Reducing federal taxable income by the amount paid in income taxes is NOT a subsidy.. to the states. Unless you consider my business expenses being deducted is also a subsidy.

Yep.. business expenses are just that an expense.

State income taxes are also an expense. And those taxes by the way go to help create a better environment for my businesses. (or they should.. like education and other infrastructure).

Now.. as to why to stop at state income taxes? and not use taxes?

Well.. I would argue that if my income is 100,000.. and the state is taking 10,000.. my actual income is now 90,000.

IF the federal government taxes my income as if its 100,000.. despite paying 10,000 in taxes.. it means that a portion of my income is being double taxed.

Not so with sales taxes.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Actually I am in business.. I own several companies.

Reducing federal taxable income by the amount paid in income taxes is NOT a subsidy.. to the states. Unless you consider my business expenses being deducted is also a subsidy.

Yep.. business expenses are just that an expense.

State income taxes are also an expense. And those taxes by the way go to help create a better environment for my businesses. (or they should.. like education and other infrastructure).

Now.. as to why to stop at state income taxes? and not use taxes?

Well.. I would argue that if my income is 100,000.. and the state is taking 10,000.. my actual income is now 90,000.

IF the federal government taxes my income as if its 100,000.. despite paying 10,000 in taxes.. it means that a portion of my income is being double taxed.

Not so with sales taxes.

Agreed but double taxation has been part of this culture nearly forever. The fact that you believe that the federal government is not reducing your tax burden by allowing you to deduct your state and property taxed is irrelevant and it does reduce double taxation on some of your income.

Forget the business model for a moment, lets talk about double taxation of a wage earner.

Wage earner pays federal and state income tax, then pays state sales tax on most things he/she buys with same dollars. So state income tax and state sales tax on the same dollars.

Using dollars that are all ready taxed as state and federal income, they pay state and federal fuel taxes.

Why is the federal government required to reduce the your federal taxable income, by the amount you pay to the state?

You state increases the income taxes of its citizens by 10%, then the federal government is required to reduce your federal taxable income by 10%.

Unfortunately there is nothing under current law that mandate this.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Agreed but double taxation has been part of this culture nearly forever. The fact that you believe that the federal government is not reducing your tax burden by allowing you to deduct your state and property taxed is irrelevant and it does reduce double taxation on some of your income.
.

Yeah.. its not irrelevant at all. The fact is the federal government is INCREASING my tax burden by taxing the same income twice.

Wage earner pays federal and state income tax, then pays state sales tax on most things he/she buys with same dollars. So state income tax and state sales tax on the same dollars.

no its not on those same dollars. the state income tax is on his WHOLE INCOME. everything he makes.. the state sales tax is only on his consumption and only those things that are subject to tax.. that is a HUGE difference.

Using dollars that are all ready taxed as state and federal income, they pay state and federal fuel taxes.

Yep.. BUT its not apples to apples because its taxed on use.. not solely on income. IF they don't say own a car..and by fuel.. they don't get taxed.. and their whole income is not subject to federal and state fuel tax.

Why is the federal government required to reduce the your federal taxable income, by the amount you pay to the state?

Because its double taxation. I am being taxed on INCOME.. TWICE.. and if there is no deduction for that amount paid to the state.. then that amount is being taxed again as INCOME.. even though its already been taxed as income.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Yeah.. its not irrelevant at all. The fact is the federal government is INCREASING my tax burden by taxing the same income twice.



no its not on those same dollars. the state income tax is on his WHOLE INCOME. everything he makes.. the state sales tax is only on his consumption and only those things that are subject to tax.. that is a HUGE difference.



Yep.. BUT its not apples to apples because its taxed on use.. not solely on income. IF they don't say own a car..and by fuel.. they don't get taxed.. and their whole income is not subject to federal and state fuel tax.



Because its double taxation. I am being taxed on INCOME.. TWICE.. and if there is no deduction for that amount paid to the state.. then that amount is being taxed again as INCOME.. even though its already been taxed as income.


I don't see the major difference in being taxed on income twice on the portion paid in state taxes and being taxed on income and then being taxed on that portion of income again when you spend said income, especially when most people spend their entire income.

Tax History Project -- The SALT Deduction Has Always Been Hard to Defend ? And to Kill

https://taxfoundation.org/state-and-local-tax-deduction-primer/
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Level it to what? The blue states already contribute more federal revenue than they receive and many red states get more federal revenue than they receive. This action makes an unbalanced system even more unbalanced.

Progressive income taxation is designed (supposed?) to be unbalanced as are many of the income redistribution schemes that those taxes fund. Richer folks pay more in taxation than than they receive in government services while poorer folks pay less in taxation than they receive in government services. This basic fact should not come as a shock to a Liberal.

If double taxation is seen as such a problem for folks in your (blue?) state then fix that by exempting all federal taxes paid from state/local income taxation. Of course, that would means that richer folks would receive a larger (standard?) deduction than the poorer folks do and, to raise the same total amount of state/local income tax revenue, would require a higher tax rate.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Yes, I know the mantra, the SALT deduction only benefits the rich. What you don't know (or don't want to know) is that lots of middle class citizens in blue states pay more than $10,000 for property taxes. While it is true that more than 90% of households making $200,000 or more claim it, 20% of households making $50,000 or less also claim it too. Moreover, households earning $100,000 in NY or CA aren't rich. Two married school teachers can earn over $200,000.

The median income in NY state is $62,909.

https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/new-york/

The median income in CA is $67,639.

https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/

$100,000 is pretty well above it in either case. I'm not sure this is the argument you want to make.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Yes, I know the mantra, the SALT deduction only benefits the rich. What you don't know (or don't want to know) is that lots of middle class citizens in blue states pay more than $10,000 for property taxes. While it is true that more than 90% of households making $200,000 or more claim it, 20% of households making $50,000 or less also claim it too. Moreover, households earning $100,000 in NY or CA aren't rich. Two married school teachers can earn over $200,000.

Any income tax deduction benefits those with higher incomes more than those with lower incomes - that is true simply because of the higher marginal income tax rates paid by those with higher incomes. In order for anyone to benefit from claiming itemized deductions they must have enough total deductions to exceed the standard deduction.

A household (married couple) making $50K must exceed $24K in itemized deductions (in 2018) to receive any benefit from itemizing their deductions. I find it extremely hard to believe that 20% of households making $50K would manage to do so (in 2018) - that would require about 50% of their income to be spent on deductible expenses.
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

Ok, Democrats in blue states need to campaign against Republican Members of Congress and Senators that voted for this provision that was designed to punish blue states. By my count, there are 7 in NY; 14 from California and 5 from New Jersey.

Lo and Behold, look at all those Blue states and blue population centers getting Federal Taxpayer assistance through Medicaid. Doubt seriously that you had a clue

https://www.kff.org/interactive/medicaid-state-fact-sheets/
 
Re: https://youtu.be/-N9nVLXMhPc

so far SALT caps only affect people that itemize their tax returns.
With the changes to the standard deductions more people will probably choose not to itemize vs itemizing.

I know for a fact that this year i will not have more than 24k dollars in deductions so there is no point in itemizing.
the majority of people will not have that either.

the only only people that could possibly run into that are people with big homes etc ...
however states trying to pawn this off as charity will run into law issues.

charity cannot be forced. IE they could try and do it as charity but they could not force people to pay it.
nor could their be any penalty for not paying it.
 
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