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Harley-Davidson cut jobs, repurchased shares after tax cut

It is a way to improve the economy, but it's not a silver bullet that fixes every single business everywhere... :roll:


Right.the premise of this thread is that one company lost jobs so that proves it didn't work.
SMH.

Maybe the economy will improve, maybe it won't , but one company doesn't prove anything. The overall unemployment rate continues to drop.Not that THAT proves anything definitively but it's better than one company.
 
It started about a year ago, when Trump said, "A lot of countries are taking advantage of us," during a press briefing with the executives and union members."Thank you Harley-Davidson for building things in America," Trump said during his remarks.


This is now, I think the worker at Harley are getting tired of winning.

sad that people are losing their jobs

the business is changing

this may help you understand why....

In the United States, Harley and other motorcycle manufacturers are caught between two customer demographic trends: millennials who aren’t widely embracing the motorcycling lifestyle, and baby boomers who are aging out of riding. They’ve also seen sales decline in some states, including Texas, where the economy took a tumble.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/mone...acturers-face-big-challenges-2018/1038305001/

Dealer Network | Investor Relations | Harley-Davidson USA

there are still almost 700 dealers out there selling the product, and servicing the product....and those are jobs we still have...or do you want the whole business to shut down?

profits are down....sales are down....tell me, as the CEO what would YOU DO?
 
Right.the premise of this thread is that one company lost jobs so that proves it didn't work.
SMH.

Maybe the economy will improve, maybe it won't , but one company doesn't prove anything. The overall unemployment rate continues to drop.Not that THAT proves anything definitively but it's better than one company.

Well certainly one company is an example that it may not be working. You just can't get around the logic.
 
Businesses are always failing. Every single day no matter how good the economy is, businesses are failing. The failures that are occurring now do not make the tax cuts a bad thing. Unless you can show a direct cause and effect of the tax cuts to the business's failures, you've got nothing.

You're claiming that the tax cuts were supposed to make everything perfect and that never been the case and it never will be the case. The tax cuts are making things better, but you con't bring yourself to admit that. YOu want to discredit them because you found an example where a business is failing and you want to blame it on the tax cuts.

/flush

Wrong.. NO WHERE did I claim or even intimate that tax cuts were "supposed to make everything perfect"... never claimed that.. never will.. so stop lying.

Businesses failing.. when the tax cuts were specifically supposed to STOP businesses from failing and losing workers... is definite evidence that tax cuts may NOT be working. That's just the facts.

IF tax cuts were making things better.. than there should be evidence that the middle class and the economy is benefiting from the tax cuts beyond what the previous economic trend. I already provided evidence that this was not the case. You sir.. have not provided any evidence that the tax cuts are working i.e. that the economy and middle class/working guy is doing better than they would if the tax cuts had not been enacted.

You simply don't want to listen to any reason.
 
Wrong.. NO WHERE did I claim or even intimate that tax cuts were "supposed to make everything perfect"... never claimed that.. never will.. so stop lying.

Businesses failing.. when the tax cuts were specifically supposed to STOP businesses from failing and losing workers... is definite evidence that tax cuts may NOT be working. That's just the facts.

IF tax cuts were making things better.. than there should be evidence that the middle class and the economy is benefiting from the tax cuts beyond what the previous economic trend. I already provided evidence that this was not the case. You sir.. have not provided any evidence that the tax cuts are working i.e. that the economy and middle class/working guy is doing better than they would if the tax cuts had not been enacted.

You simply don't want to listen to any reason.

There is certainly nothing conservative in your posts as tax cuts help the individual need less of those so called bureaucratic help programs but you cannot seem to understand that or the role of the Federal govt. Allowing people and businesses to keep more of what they earn is conservative economic policy and in this case you focus on the job losses but not the job creation as the company is creating more jobs in another location.

In addition you don't seem to understand the role of private business probably including your own but the role of business is to make a profit and with that profit they pay dividends, expand with capital investments, higher more employees so when you see an article this the left jumps on the negative totally ignoring why it happened and what if any benefits were created. Did these employees receive a good severance package, did they retire, did shareholders get a dividend? You seem to believe companies are charities and are in business for the employees when they are in business for profits which isn't a dirty word except to the left.

Harley Davidson is facing a changing market and faced with declining sales what should they do?
 
That is a concept, not a cost. Furthermore liberals only care about it in terms of increasing their power. They never consider positive externalities of industry. I would rather have a polluted environment and be employed


What is the cost to society of a motorcycle built in 1996 versus 2012 via emissions, in fact isolated to only their emissions ?

:doh

That all well and good, but if you become more prone to all sorts of health issues as a result you're not only increasing your risk of disease but also ruining the future for the next generation. It's not a zero sum game, and there are certainly ways to keep companies profitable while protecting our environment.
 
You're missing one important detail mentioned in one of your articles above. HD's sales are really down.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/03/harley-davidson-sales-go-from-bad-to-worse.aspx

eta:
As much as you are trying to make this Trump's fault because of your own partisanship, it isn't his fault.
Find a more convincing anti-Trump argument.

That is the kind of the point. Sales and market conditions are what dictate hiring at a company, not tax policy.
 
Strawman.. where did I ever say that "its not perfect is a failure"..

That's a lie. businesses failing and getting rid of workers when the tax cut was specifically supposed to stop that.. is definitely evidence that it may not be beneficial. You simply cannot get around that logic.

Workers and businesses thriving BEYOND what the normal trend was before the tax cut.. would ALSO be a sign that the tax cuts were beneficial.. So far.. I have seen no evidence that supports the tax cuts.



Lets see.. no real benefit to the middle class.. and an increase in the 2018 deficit of 242 billion. Yeah.. that's real conservative. no advantage and more debt... :roll:

No benefit for the middle class?

So they have no 401k’s

The stock buy backs aren’t helping increase the value of those accounts?

Dividends paid on those accounts aren’t being increased?

Wow...all my info from my brokerage must be wrong.....
 
There is certainly nothing conservative in your posts as tax cuts help the individual need less of those so called bureaucratic help programs but you cannot seem to understand that or the role of the Federal govt. Allowing people and businesses to keep more of what they earn is conservative economic policy and in this case you focus on the job losses but not the job creation as the company is creating more jobs in another location.
?

Says the guy that's arguing on another thread that blue states need to send more money into the federal government and basically get double taxed... You don't even realize your disconnect.

In addition you don't seem to understand the role of private business probably including your own but the role of business is to make a profit and with that profit they pay dividends, expand with capital investments, higher more employees so when you see an article this the left jumps on the negative totally ignoring why it happened and what if any benefits were created. Did these employees receive a good severance package, did they retire, did shareholders get a dividend? You seem to believe companies are charities and are in business for the employees when they are in business for profits which isn't a dirty word except to the left.

I understand private business a whole lot better than you demonstrate.

Harley Davidson is facing a changing market and faced with declining sales what should they do?

Probably what they did. this thread doesn;t have anything to do with whether Harley Davidson made the right move or not.

You are just trying to divert from the issue.. which is.. are the trump tax cuts working to prevent things like Harley Davidson.

According to you.. those tax cuts should have INCREASED their sales since more people would have more money in their pockets to buy Harley's.. should it not?

And Harley having more Money.. should have been able to invest more into their company to keep making more of those harleys'..

that's your premise and the rationale of those that support the Trump Tax cuts.

Harley Davidsons issues and moves are an indicator that you and Trump were full of bull when it comes to the effectiveness of the tax cuts.
 
No benefit for the middle class?

So they have no 401k’s

The stock buy backs aren’t helping increase the value of those accounts?

Dividends paid on those accounts aren’t being increased?

Wow...all my info from my brokerage must be wrong.....

yes.. all the info from your brokerage is wrong.

Going forward.. How do you figure that these out of work middle class workers are going to be funding this 401K's?

Apparently your brokerage thinks that middle class workers are living off their 401k money.. and only need to work for fun. Because stagnant wages and loss of jobs like Harley Davidsons.. don't seem to matter to the middle class.

Yeah.. I am sure the Harley Davidson employees that lost their jobs are having parties celebrating Harley Davidsons stock price!!!! Weeee HOOOOOO!.. :roll:
 
yes.. all the info from your brokerage is wrong.

Going forward.. How do you figure that these out of work middle class workers are going to be funding this 401K's?

Apparently your brokerage thinks that middle class workers are living off their 401k money.. and only need to work for fun. Because stagnant wages and loss of jobs like Harley Davidsons.. don't seem to matter to the middle class.

Yeah.. I am sure the Harley Davidson employees that lost their jobs are having parties celebrating Harley Davidsons stock price!!!! Weeee HOOOOOO!.. :roll:

Last month, there were hundreds of thousands of job creations.

Clearly, Harley-Davidson is not reflective of the broader economy.
 
Last month, there were hundreds of thousands of job creations.

Clearly, Harley-Davidson is not reflective of the broader economy.

YEp.. the broader economy was improving BEFORE Donald Trump in the tax cut.

The tax cut was sold as a means to improve the economy even faster.. (which is how it is supposed to pay for itself), by in part from preventing companies like Harley Davidson from going overseas, closing up shop etc. .

Clearly, Harley Davidson is an indicator that that the tax cuts may not be working as they are supposed to.
 
YEp.. the broader economy was improving BEFORE Donald Trump in the tax cut.

The tax cut was sold as a means to improve the economy even faster.. (which is how it is supposed to pay for itself), by in part from preventing companies like Harley Davidson from going overseas, closing up shop etc. .

Tax cuts are a form of fiscal stimulus.

Clearly, Harley Davidson is an indicator that that the tax cuts may not be working as they are supposed to.

One company reducing its workforce after a period of fiscal stimulus is an indication that it doesn't work? I can't deny, your reasoning is impeccable [sarcasm]

In all seriousness, I just want to know: Do you think Harley Davidson just decided to reduce its workforce recently, or could this be as a result of many fiscal quarters of shrinking profits?
 
Tax cuts are a form of fiscal stimulus.
?

they can be. But not always. A lot depends on how the tax cut is applied and on whom it is applied.

One company reducing its workforce after a period of fiscal stimulus is an indication that it doesn't work?

Well it certainly isn;t an indicator that its working, now is it? No sarcasm there.

In all seriousness, I just want to know: Do you think Harley Davidson just decided to reduce its workforce recently, or could this be as a result of many fiscal quarters of shrinking profits?

that's the great question. IF you believe that Harley Davidson and other companies make decisions based simply on recent events, and not on a plethora of fiscal indicators.. then those folks tend to believe that tax cuts will stimulate the economy, that tax cuts will keep businesses here despite huge differences in labor costs etc.

IF you have knowledge of how companies actually make decisions.. then you realize that companies assess the total economic picture for themselves and tax cuts generally have little influence on major decisions regarding labor, products, etc.
 
they can be. But not always. A lot depends on how the tax cut is applied and on whom it is applied.

If the marginal propensity to consume increases as a result of tax cuts increase, its a stimulus. If MPC decreases, then it is not a stimulus.

Rarely is the second part ever happened.

Well it certainly isn;t an indicator that its working, now is it? No sarcasm there.

No, because rational thinking people do not refer to a single anecdote and apply that to a broader reality.

that's the great question. IF you believe that Harley Davidson and other companies make decisions based simply on recent events, and not on a plethora of fiscal indicators.. then those folks tend to believe that tax cuts will stimulate the economy, that tax cuts will keep businesses here despite huge differences in labor costs etc.

I'm not talking about what other companies are doing; I'm talking about what Harley Davidson is doing.

IF you have knowledge of how companies actually make decisions.. then you realize that companies assess the total economic picture for themselves and tax cuts generally have little influence on major decisions regarding labor, products, etc.

Taxes are important component for the cost of capital; the cost of capital influences major decisions. To say that it has little influence is misleading.
 
If the marginal propensity to consume increases as a result of tax cuts increase, its a stimulus. If MPC decreases, then it is not a stimulus.
.

Nope.. not true. If the marginal propensity to consume increases BEYOND what consumption growth was already occurring.. then its MIGHT be a stimulus. If its there is no significant consumption growth beyond what was already occurring pre tax cut.. then its not a stimulus.

No, because rational thinking people do not refer to a single anecdote and apply that to a broader reality.

Actually yes.. its called a data point.. and rational people understand that data is made up of several data points.. and do not dismiss one data point simply because they don't like the data. Harley Davidson firing workers, and changing is certainly evidence that the tax cuts are not working. Not definitive.. but its certainly a data point.

I'm not talking about what other companies are doing; I'm talking about what Harley Davidson is doing.

Nice diversion.

Taxes are important component for the cost of capital

depending on the type of tax. however income taxes have little influence on major decisions when it comes to labor, production etc. . to say that it has little influence on these major decisions is correct.
 
Nope.. not true. If the marginal propensity to consume increases BEYOND what consumption growth was already occurring.. then its MIGHT be a stimulus. If its there is no significant consumption growth beyond what was already occurring pre tax cut.. then its not a stimulus.


Um, no. Marginal Propensity to Consume is the ratio of the change in income relative to the change in consumption. It has nothing to do with "consumption growth already occurring" as you incorrectly stated. Stimulus is determined by a multiplier, which is calculated by 1 / (1 - Marginal Propensity to Save + Marginal Rate of Taxation + The Marginal Propensity to Import), which all sums up to 1 / (1 - The Marginal Propensity to Consume).

All things equal, if marginal rate of taxation declines, individuals can consume more. With a greater propensity to consumer, this increases the multiplier. If the multiplier is positive (or not zero) there is stimulus. I can tell you've never studied macroeconomics.


Actually yes.. its called a data point.. and rational people understand that data is made up of several data points.. and do not dismiss one data point simply because they don't like the data. Harley Davidson firing workers, and changing is certainly evidence that the tax cuts are not working. Not definitive.. but its certainly a data point.

I don't think you study statistics or econometric either. Are you trying to tell me that one company is representative what is occurring in the broader economy?

If the economy is creating millions of jobs a year and one company sheds 800 jobs in a year, are you going to tell me that the company losing 800 jobs is a true reflection of the broader economy? I'm having difficulty taking you seriously if you honestly believe that.

Nice diversion.

The thread is about Harley Davidson, not other companies. No one is diverting anything but you.

Or maybe you were diverting to mask your ignorance on statistics.

depending on the type of tax. however income taxes have little influence on major decisions when it comes to labor, production etc. . to say that it has little influence on these major decisions is correct.

It's not "depending on the type of tax. There is only one tax rate that influences the cost of capital: the corporate tax rate. It's a major component on a corporation's ability to effectively borrow money, achieve cash flows and provide returns to all owners of capital.

I'm also guessing that you've never studied corporate valuation or corporate finance, either.

So, I'm dealing with someone who doesn't have a STEM background, Finance or Economics background. What else don't you seem to know?
 
Um, no. Marginal Propensity to Consume is the ratio of the change in income relative to the change in consumption. It has nothing to do with "consumption growth already occurring" as you incorrectly stated. Stimulus is determined by a multiplier, which is calculated by 1 / (1 - Marginal Propensity to Save + Marginal Rate of Taxation + The Marginal Propensity to Import), which all sums up to 1 / (1 - The Marginal Propensity to Consume).
?

Okay. Let me ask you a question.. Can the marginal propensity to consume increase in the absence of a tax cut? If it can.. then how do you know that your tax cut increased Consumption?

The only way to know that is if the increase in propensity to consume was GREATER than what was occurring prior to the tax cut.

All things equal, if marginal rate of taxation declines, individuals can consume more. With a greater propensity to consumer, this increases the multiplier. If the multiplier is positive (or not zero) there is stimulus. I can tell you've never studied macroeconomics.

Right.. and that assumption that "all things equal".. is not valid. A tax cut could simply be absorbed by people now having more money to save.. or more money to import.

I don't think you study statistics or econometric either. Are you trying to tell me that one company is representative what is occurring in the broader economy?

It appears to me that you have problems with reading comprehension. I did not say that.

Are you trying to tell me that Harley Davidson shedding jobs SUPPORTS that the tax cuts are working as presented? I would hope you would not. It still constitutes evidence that the tax cuts may not be working. NOW.. IF the economy is creating overall millions of jobs BEYOND what it was creating before the tax cuts.. then you MIGHT be able to say the tax cuts are a stimulus. but only if job creation is GREATER than would be expected with the job creation trend PRIOR to the tax cuts.

See.. I have a research degree, and have studied economics.. in fact I have taught economics and business and have more than a basic understanding of correlation and its weaknesses.

The thread is about Harley Davidson, not other companies. No one is diverting anything but you.

interesting.. that's exactly right.. the thread was about HArley Davidson and not other companies. that's the point. So.. is Harley Davidson shedding employees.. indicative of the tax cuts working or not?

It's not "depending on the type of tax

of course it depends on the tax. A tax say on luxury cars produced in America is going to have an effect. In fact..the luxury tax that was put on US luxury ships had a dramatic negative effect on US shipbuilding back in the early 1990's. So yep.. different taxes effect the economy differently.

It's a major component on a corporation's ability to effectively borrow money, achieve cash flows and provide returns to all owners of capital.

Hmmm...You do realize that an increase in corporate tax rate will actually decrease your cost for capital because of tax shielding (since interest is tax deductible)..

However, that's really beside the point. your cost for capital is not going to have much influence on your production decisions, labor decisions etc...

But you go ahead.. you explain to me.. why I won't outsource my production to China. which will save me 10 million in labor costs (even including shipping costs).. because my corporate tax rate has gone down.
I look forward to your reasoning.
 
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