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Thread: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

  1. #701
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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Facts are indeed facts, MEDICAID WAS CREATED BY THE FEDERAL GOVT.!! Federal programs are funded by federal taxpayer dollars
    Yep.. it was created by the federal government in CONJUNCTION with the states. A state has to agree to Medicaid. AND its funded BOTH by the federal government.. and by the state as well. You need to go do some research and get your facts straight before coming here spouting off like you do.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    And that's your basic mistake. Federal payments are part of federal programs, not subsidies to states. They would be (and are) paid anywhere. From the link:


    Why money comes back to your state is a little more complicated. Pew has helpfully broken down federal transfers into five categories:

    • Retirement benefits
    • Non-retirement benefits
    • Grants (mostly transportation, education, housing and Medicaid)
    • Government contracts for goods and services
    • Salaries and wages

    Most of the transfers do not come from “red state welfare” like agricultural subsidies. They derive from Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, food stamps, welfare, the maintenance of the national highway system, the purchase of goods and services for the federal government, and the operation of federal facilities and lands.
    Nope.. they are subsidies for the state. They pay for things that OTHERWISE THE STATE WOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR.

    For example. Without Medicaid.. the state would have to pay for millions of its citizens to have healthcare. Unless the state decided that they would just go without and let millions of their citizens go without healthcare. But states don't.. they CHOOSE to accept those payments.

    Without medicare.. the state would have to cover its old people.. or just let them go without

    Without welfare... the same

    Without national highways.. the state would have to fund those projects.. or go without the economic benefit of those roads.

    now you say:

    But but but: They would be paid anywhere...

    True. That's irrelevant.

    Whats relevant is how much is paid out to the federal government versus paid by the federal government to the states.

    States that pay the federal government more money than they get back... are therefore subsidizing those states that get more from the federal government than they pay in.

    To simplify it for you..

    Lets take social security. I will in all likelihood get social security. (okay.. lets hope). But, its guaranteed now that unless they dramatically increase the maximum I can get from social security, I will have paid millions more into social security than I will every get out. From my personal taxes... to all the money my company pays into social security for each employee.

    So.. the amount of money that I have put into social security.. very much subsidizes everyone who ends up getting more out of social security than they put in. You simply cannot argue that I am not subsidizing those that get more than they put in. Despite the fact that I also "get social security".

    So to.. a state that gives more to the federal money than they get back.. are subsidizing those states that get more money from the federal government than they give.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Nope.. they are subsidies for the state. They pay for things that OTHERWISE THE STATE WOULD HAVE TO PAY FOR.
    That is simply a lie.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post

    Lets take social security. I will in all likelihood get social security. (okay.. lets hope). But, its guaranteed now that unless they dramatically increase the maximum I can get from social security, I will have paid millions more into social security than I will every get out. From my personal taxes... to all the money my company pays into social security for each employee.
    Medicare and Social Security: What you paid compared with what you ...

    https://www.politifact.com/.../medic...-paid-what-yo/





    Feb 1, 2013 - ... spending on the elderly are Social Security and Medicare payments. ... have paid $600,000 in lifetime Social Security taxes and will receive ...
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    That is simply a lie.
    Okay.. please explain why its a lie.

    I contend that the state would have a choice. If social security ended.. the state would either have to help support those elderly people.. and provide them some type of assistance. OR it would simply have to let their population of homeless elderly explode.. or perhaps start euthanasia programs

    the same with Medicaid..

    And welfare..

    And without the money for interstate highways.. which are of the greatest benefit to the folks in the state they live in.. the state would either have to pay for it.. or do without the economic benefit they provide.

    Now.. you explain to me why that's wrong.

    Oh.. and then explain to me.. what do you think would happen in a state that did NOT pick up the tab. Do you think that the states populace would be fine with say just letting young children.. previously on Medicaid.. simply not get care... or do you think that people would demand that the state pay for them?

    IF you think that the people in the state would allow those young children not get care... then why does your state and the rest of the states.. participate in Medicaid.. when its voluntary?
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Medicare and Social Security: What you paid compared with what you ...

    https://www.politifact.com/.../medic...-paid-what-yo/





    Feb 1, 2013 - ... spending on the elderly are Social Security and Medicare payments. ... have paid $600,000 in lifetime Social Security taxes and will receive ...
    Bingo.. your article again.. supports my position:

    According to the institute’s data, a two-earner couple receiving an average wage — $44,600 per spouse in 2012 dollars — and turning 65 in 2010 would have paid $722,000 into Social Security and Medicare and can be expected to take out $966,000 in benefits. So, this couple will be paid about one-third more in benefits than they paid in taxes.

    If a similar couple had retired in 1980, they would have gotten back almost three times what they put in. And if they had retired in 1960, they would have gotten back more than eight times what they paid in. The bigger discrepancies common decades ago can be traced in part to the fact that some of these individuals’ working lives came before Social Security taxes were collected beginning in 1937
    Like I said.. given that what I contribute.. and what my company contributes.. I will have paid in millions more than I will get out. Basically.. I am subsidizing those folks above.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Yep.. it was created by the federal government in CONJUNCTION with the states. A state has to agree to Medicaid. AND its funded BOTH by the federal government.. and by the state as well. You need to go do some research and get your facts straight before coming here spouting off like you do.
    So what the states receive from the Federal taxpayers are for Federal Expenses to Medicaid. My facts are straight, you seem to want the citizens of the state to pay for the federal responsibilities within Medicaid

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    Okay.. please explain why its a lie.

    I contend that the state would have a choice. If social security ended.. the state would either have to help support those elderly people.. and provide them some type of assistance. OR it would simply have to let their population of homeless elderly explode.. or perhaps start euthanasia programs

    the same with Medicaid..

    And welfare..

    And without the money for interstate highways.. which are of the greatest benefit to the folks in the state they live in.. the state would either have to pay for it.. or do without the economic benefit they provide.

    Now.. you explain to me why that's wrong.

    Oh.. and then explain to me.. what do you think would happen in a state that did NOT pick up the tab. Do you think that the states populace would be fine with say just letting young children.. previously on Medicaid.. simply not get care... or do you think that people would demand that the state pay for them?

    IF you think that the people in the state would allow those young children not get care... then why does your state and the rest of the states.. participate in Medicaid.. when its voluntary?
    SS is paid for by FICA taxes paid by the employee and the employer, if SS and Medicare ended the states would have a choice to increase taxes to fund those programs just like the federal govt. is collecting now. you seem very confused on what taxes you pay and their purpose. Further I continue to post the link showing what federal tax dollars go to the states, suggest you research that link and tell us what subsidies the federal govt. gives to the state vs. paying for expenses owed in the state

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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So what the states receive from the Federal taxpayers are for Federal Expenses to Medicaid. My facts are straight, you seem to want the citizens of the state to pay for the federal responsibilities within Medicaid
    Um no.. they are not "federal expenses for Medicaid". they are a block grant given to the state to pay for Medicaid for the individuals in their state.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

  10. #710
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    Re: The End of the Federal Tax Subsidy for Blue States

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    SS is paid for by FICA taxes paid by the employee and the employer, if SS and Medicare ended the states would have a choice to increase taxes to fund those programs just like the federal govt. is collecting now.
    Yep.. in other words.. the states would have to pick up the tab.. OR they would have to let folks like you go without health insurance. I am not confused at all.. you don't understand what taxes you pay and why.
    So we should put you down as supporting putting GPS trackers in everyone to "save lives"?
    Vegas Giants: "Sounds fantastic!"

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