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Should the VA be abolshed?

itsforthekids said:
Yes. Any time that we can get rid of a bloated, inefficient government agency, I'm all in!
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So, you want to get rid of what, the post office? The military? The police? The fire department? the FBI, the DOJ? The Courts?

All the really big agencies are important. There are no doubt hundreds of little agencies no one has ever heard of, that really don't cost the government much money at all.

I worked at a world wide engineering company, and just like a big gov agency, there was deadwood there, too. See, it's not the fact that it's "gov" that makes it "bloated", it's bigness. Bigness in private or public, is just as difficult to manage. But, bigness is unavoidable.

It's just a fact of life, really
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Plastic surgery, prosthetics, diabetes, traumatic brain injury, PTSD, melanoma and lung cancer are all specialties which have benefited from VA's leadership.
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Still, I hope you realize that overall, the VA sucks big time. Even after you get past the extremely long wait times and long trips just to get care, their care often sucks big time. I have personally known several who went to the VA for treatment and it was either botched big time or they actually died from the incompetence. I would be in favor of the VA farming out all types of regular standard care and just sticking with war related injuries and treatments and actually refusing the service of those who got regular jobs which carry insurance. No reason for the VA or the government to have to pick up the tab of someone who can get real insurance through their employment.
 
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PTF said:
Vets can get the same,probably better care at a hospital.
Not mentioning a hospital in the next county but seems like they may be closing. I believe they can maintain if they add veterans to the mix. I know veterans have mental and physical inflictions due to stress from battles. Take the VA employees and add it to the hospital staff who specializes in veterans needs and affairs and the hospital will stay open.
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Only ff that hospital is staffed with mental health professional's who can deal with combat PTSD.
 
Moderate Right said:
Still, I hope you realize that overall, the VA sucks big time. Even after you get past the extremely long wait times and long trips just to get care, their care often sucks big time. I have personally known several who went to the VA for treatment and it was either botched big time or they actually died from the incompetence. I would be in favor of the VA farming out all types of regular standard care and just sticking with war related injuries and treatments and actually refusing the service of those who got regular jobs which carry insurance. No reason for the VA or the government to have to pick up the tab of someone who can get real insurance through their employment.
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And again, there is a reason I asked when, where and what.
As to "when", the VA did have a horrendous reputation which was FAR worse than it is now, back in the Vietnam War era.
I have personally known people who went to regular hospitals for treatment and it got botched and/or they died.
Believe it or not, that happens in the outside medical world too.
Believe it or not, there are outside hospitals that have a horrendous reputation, too.

As for people who can get regular insurance, the VA groups its patients into Priority Groups.
Originally there were EIGHT Priority Groups, now there are five. Patients in the first three groups are often people whose disabilities are severe enough that it's doubtful they would get a lot out of a health insurance policy after they had exhausted treatment caps back before the ACA was passed. Today, there are still loopholes which exist in outside insurance which can still place a limit on what these people receive.

Veterans whose disabilities are mild enough that they are able to work are generally in Group 4 or 5, so they DO have regular insurance which works together WITH VA policies, and the Veterans Choice program does allow them to access outside care.
If you are in Group 4 or 5, the VA is going to look to your OHI (Other Health Insurance) first anyway, especially if you're seeking outside care.

I do not dispute that there are VA facilities which have had a bad reputation and which still do. I am aware of a bunch of them personally.
That's what happens when you participate in veterans groups, you learn the stories, both bad and good, and you learn which VA's are great and which ones are terrible. But my wife and I have our own stories, both bad and good.
I think you've just only heard the bad and do not have any direct experience.
That's what it sounds like, but again, I can only go on the very limited information you've provided, which consists of,
I have personally known several who went to the VA for treatment and it was either botched big time or they actually died from the incompetence.
No when, where and what, which makes it difficult to ascertain if there were any other factors in play.

Just saying that "the VA sucks big time" means nothing.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
What's your status? Family, significant other in the system or are you a disabled veteran?
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My status? I'm a tax payer, and a concerned citizen. I'm very glad your wife was treated well when she needed the help she deserved, not all are treated as well as they should be, I hope you don't deny the short comings of the govt. run agency. My wish is to offer a solution to the needs of injured vets that feel left out by the system.

My father was a vet from WWII and I saw the mistreatment they gave him, lucky for us/him he had insurance that helped him get the help he needed in his declining years. Watching the poor treatment he received and the disposition of many of the medical staff was appalling.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
I'm not getting any answers from all the people who want it abolished.
I think disabled veterans and their families have a right to know who is cheerleading the call to abolish something that they may have absolutely no direct experience with.

If you're a pilot, and a person who has never flown in an airplane in their entire life is out there leading the call to shut down all the air traffic control towers, you'd probably feel that you had a right to know where they get off talking as if they know something.
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So sorry I don't get on here some days, but I have to ask if you ever read the OP? Here it is again for you to read, please show me where I slighted anyone?

Would it make sense to just abolish the VA all together and just give vets full medical coverage to use as needed? Would it save the govt/tax payers any money, would vets get better care? (The ultimate goal)

I ask, by abolishing the VA would the care be any better, would it save the taxpayers any money. (Would the vets get better care (the ultimate goal)

Me thinks you have a comprehension problem if you think I am willy nilly looking to throw out vets to the wolves.
 
lefty louie said:
My status? I'm a tax payer, and a concerned citizen. I'm very glad your wife was treated well when she needed the help she deserved, not all are treated as well as they should be, I hope you don't deny the short comings of the govt. run agency. My wish is to offer a solution to the needs of injured vets that feel left out by the system.

My father was a vet from WWII and I saw the mistreatment they gave him, lucky for us/him he had insurance that helped him get the help he needed in his declining years. Watching the poor treatment he received and the disposition of many of the medical staff was appalling.
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---Let's not play games, okay. Yes of course you're a taxpayer but you're not a disabled vet, so you're not in the system, and we are.
The VA has been underfunded and mis-funded during its entire existence and I am going to try to precisely illustrate HOW, because the mis-funding might actually do more damage than the underfunding.

But first let's talk about the underfunding anyway, just to get it out of the way.
Long Beach VA used to be one of the worst in the country back in the Vietnam War era.
Ron Kovic described the conditions in his book "Born on the Fourth of July", which also became a film starring Tom Cruise.
After the film came out, people started paying more attention and the Long Beach VA, stung from its portrayal, made efforts to up its game.
Today it is considered one of the better/best VA facilities, with either 3.5 or four stars right now.
Much of the old VA that Ron Kovic was stuck in has been completely torn down.

Now let's talk about the MIS-funding...
My wife is a patient at the SCI (Spinal Cord Injury unit) which is a hospital within a hospital.
They just hired a new SCI staff neurologist about eight months ago, and a neurologist is a pretty important position inside of an SCI unit.
Long Beach had to make do however, WITHOUT an SCI staff neurologist for TWO YEARS, because Congress said there wasn't enough funds to HIRE one.
Guess what they DID have funds for? A brand new outdoor walkway, a remodeled atrium, new artwork on the wall, new tile, a grand piano in the auditorium, and a completely remodeled front entrance and foyer for the main building (Bldg. 126) Total cost for all of this is estimated at or near seven million dollars.

How is this possible?
In 1994 the Gingrich Congress made several rule changes in how some things are funded, including the VA.
The VA physical plant budget is NON-discretionary spending, meaning if the VA spends all the money it needs for building maintenance, remodeling etc in a given year, it is guaranteed to get that same amount or even more the next year.
The VA Health Care budget, which pays for doctor salaries, medicines, pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, lab techs, nurses, orderlies, physical therapists, research, and anything else directly related to patient care, is DISCRETIONARY SPENDING, which means that every single year, someone in Congress can, on a whim, make cuts here, make cuts there, make cuts wherever they wish at their discretion.

From where I sit, as the husband of a 100% service connected disabled Navy veteran, this looks like an INTENTIONAL effort to CRIPPLE a government program in order to create a justification for attacking it. No one in their right mind would be ordering expensive remodeling projects while they can't find the money for a staff neurologist in a spinal cord injury unit unless it was with malice aforethought.

So if you want to walk around believing that the VA is just a bunch of incompetents who don't care about their veterans, go ahead.
But YOU'RE WRONG.

The VA functions as good as it does DESPITE the best efforts of some in Congress to try to kill it.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
---Let's not play games, okay. Yes of course you're a taxpayer but you're not a disabled vet, so you're not in the system, and we are.
.[/B]
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Let's not play games, I don't have to be in the system to have insight as to how things operate. I also see that you don't address my post after you tried attacking me and others. I asked an honest question of members here, you now have given your personal pov and that is appreciated, that doesn't mean you get to discount mine or others.

I have experience with the organization enough for me to post the question, again I'm glad your opinion of the group is more positive then mine, but don't discount the treatment my father and others got/get even today.
 
lefty louie said:
So sorry I don't get on here some days, but I have to ask if you ever read the OP? Here it is again for you to read, please show me where I slighted anyone?

Would it make sense to just abolish the VA all together and just give vets full medical coverage to use as needed? Would it save the govt/tax payers any money, would vets get better care? (The ultimate goal)

I ask, by abolishing the VA would the care be any better, would it save the taxpayers any money. (Would the vets get better care (the ultimate goal)

Me thinks you have a comprehension problem if you think I am willy nilly looking to throw out vets to the wolves.
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Why don't you look at the overall performance of our nation's privately owned correctional facilities if you want to get an idea as to how a privatized veterans health care system would work, because there are only two ways it COULD work:

Method #1: Model it after free market health insurance, like an HMO, which means that they would score higher profits from DENYING care wherever and whenever possible. Don't take my word for it. Wendell Potter, a former CIGNA executive, spelled it all out in a couple of books he wrote about our nation's health care system.

Method #2 Modeled after a "paid out on an as needed basis", the medical industry would make the most money providing as many services as they possibly could. Great care for the soldiers, (probably in excess of what would really be required) but at a high cost to the taxpayer.
And it would most likely be budgeted as discretionary spending once again because every two years someone in Congress would jump up and grab a photo op for saying that we're spending too much money on veterans health care.

Given our track record with private corrections, allow me to clue you in on what private corrections does when they can't keep every inmate cell occupied:

prison2.png


You might not be INTENDING to be willy nilly looking to throw out vets to the wolves, but I guarantee you that IS what will happen if you hand our vets over to corporations as a cash cow.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
And again, there is a reason I asked when, where and what.
As to "when", the VA did have a horrendous reputation which was FAR worse than it is now, back in the Vietnam War era.
I have personally known people who went to regular hospitals for treatment and it got botched and/or they died.
Believe it or not, that happens in the outside medical world too.
Believe it or not, there are outside hospitals that have a horrendous reputation, too.

As for people who can get regular insurance, the VA groups its patients into Priority Groups.
Originally there were EIGHT Priority Groups, now there are five. Patients in the first three groups are often people whose disabilities are severe enough that it's doubtful they would get a lot out of a health insurance policy after they had exhausted treatment caps back before the ACA was passed. Today, there are still loopholes which exist in outside insurance which can still place a limit on what these people receive.

Veterans whose disabilities are mild enough that they are able to work are generally in Group 4 or 5, so they DO have regular insurance which works together WITH VA policies, and the Veterans Choice program does allow them to access outside care.
If you are in Group 4 or 5, the VA is going to look to your OHI (Other Health Insurance) first anyway, especially if you're seeking outside care.

I do not dispute that there are VA facilities which have had a bad reputation and which still do. I am aware of a bunch of them personally.
That's what happens when you participate in veterans groups, you learn the stories, both bad and good, and you learn which VA's are great and which ones are terrible. But my wife and I have our own stories, both bad and good.
I think you've just only heard the bad and do not have any direct experience.
That's what it sounds like, but again, I can only go on the very limited information you've provided, which consists of,
I have personally known several who went to the VA for treatment and it was either botched big time or they actually died from the incompetence.
No when, where and what, which makes it difficult to ascertain if there were any other factors in play.

Just saying that "the VA sucks big time" means nothing.
Click to expand...

Even Obama said the VA sucks big time and that it needed fixing. Current politicians say the same thing. Face the facts, generally speaking, the VA is totally ****ed up.
 
lefty louie said:
Let's not play games, I don't have to be in the system to have insight as to how things operate. I also see that you don't address my post after you tried attacking me and others. I asked an honest question of members here, you now have given your personal pov and that is appreciated, that doesn't mean you get to discount mine or others.

I have experience with the organization enough for me to post the question, again I'm glad your opinion of the group is more positive then mine, but don't discount the treatment my father and others got/get even today.
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Again I asked when he was treated, where and for what.
I know where the bad VA hospitals are, which is why I would like to know where. I know their track record, which is why I would like to know when, and I know what most VA's do well, which is why I would like to know what he was treated for.

If you want an honest answer, don't expect me to give credibility to generic hearsay.
I could run around saying that friends and family got treated bad by the Post Office but if you know which specific post offices have a bad track record, it's possible to pin down specific problems and address them.

I don't need to get too specific, was he treated in Alabama, was it cancer, was it in the 1980's?
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Why don't you look at the overall performance of our nation's privately owned correctional facilities if you want to get an idea as to how a privatized veterans health care system would work, because there are only two ways it COULD work:

Method #1: Model it after free market health insurance, like an HMO, which means that they would score higher profits from DENYING care wherever and whenever possible. Don't take my word for it. Wendell Potter, a former CIGNA executive, spelled it all out in a couple of books he wrote about our nation's health care system.

Method #2 Modeled after a "paid out on an as needed basis", the medical industry would make the most money providing as many services as they possibly could. Great care for the soldiers, (probably in excess of what would really be required) but at a high cost to the taxpayer.
And it would most likely be budgeted as discretionary spending once again because every two years someone in Congress would jump up and grab a photo op for saying that we're spending too much money on veterans health care.

Given our track record with private corrections, allow me to clue you in on what private corrections does when they can't keep every inmate cell occupied:

prison2.png


You might not be INTENDING to be willy nilly looking to throw out vets to the wolves, but I guarantee you that IS what will happen if you hand our vets over to corporations as a cash cow.
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I didn't take 1 second of my time to look at your post, comparing private citizens insurance plans to that of the prison system is just stupid. I think it is time to end our chat. Bye bye. And yes of course, you won.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Again I asked when he was treated, where and for what.
I know where the bad VA hospitals are, which is why I would like to know where. I know their track record, which is why I would like to know when, and I know what most VA's do well, which is why I would like to know what he was treated for.

If you want an honest answer, don't expect me to give credibility to generic hearsay.
I could run around saying that friends and family got treated bad by the Post Office but if you know which specific post offices have a bad track record, it's possible to pin down specific problems and address them.

I don't need to get too specific, was he treated in Alabama, was it cancer, was it in the 1980's?
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Ever heard of HEPPA laws? Good bye dear.
 
Moderate Right said:
Even Obama said the VA sucks big time and that it needed fixing. Current politicians say the same thing. Face the facts, generally speaking, the VA is totally ****ed up.
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I don't know what Obama has to do with it. Did you think that because I'm a liberal, that that is a shiny thing you can hold up?
No one is denying that the VA has issues which need a lot of work. The THREAD is about whether we SHOULD ABOLISH IT ALTOGETHER, that is, bulldoze the entire system and just send disabled vets out into the marketplace.
 
lefty louie said:
Ever heard of HEPPA laws? Good bye dear.
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Yeah I figured you'd hide behind HIPAA laws, as if answering a general question would violate them somehow.
Now I doubt you have had ANYONE in the system ever, and you're probably just a cheerleader.

Yeah, good-bye and thanks for "playing".
 
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lefty louie said:
I didn't take 1 second of my time to look at your post, comparing private citizens insurance plans to that of the prison system is just stupid. I think it is time to end our chat. Bye bye. And yes of course, you won.
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Because you have NOTHING, that's why.
So go ahead and be a cheerleader for bulldozing the entire system. Why did you even start a thread at all?
You didn't want to learn anything, you don't have any direct experience, and you think you know more than the people who have to use the system.
 
OscarLevant said:
THe VA is big. Just like the real world, you got clinics that are terrible, and you've got clinics that are wonderful.

The same is true with the VA. Ask one soldier, he'll tell you it's the worst, ask another in another city or state, and it's superior.

I don't think, therefore, privatizing it is going to help it at all.
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Ah. Letting the bad ones fail to be replaced by, hopefully, better ones is the keystone of privatization. Privatization may break the VA down into 'managable' chunks. So would having the states oversee their own VA.
 
And so here we are, folks, another sunny day at Debate Politics, where Right wingers issue a fatwah calling for the termination of treatment and benefits for all disabled veterans and the transformation of the government funded VA system to a bare voucher program, where disabled vets get to attempt to get outside doctors and hospitals to figure out how to treat a wide variety of health problems unique to their group, with a limited amount of funding, denial of care and rationing of benefits, while the private system winds up costing the taxpayers even MORE money than the VA did.

But it doesn't even matter, because the folks on the Right don't have any intention of discussing the issue in detail, or in exploring compromise, or even arriving at a consensus.

Our nation's VA system is saddled with a variety of problems, some unique to the VA and some commonly found in the outside medical environment, but in the end all that matters to a lot of people on the Right is the ability to say "Yay for our team, we're going to win no matter what it costs, because none of that even matters!"

I'm reminded of something another Republican told me once right before the election.
He said that in football it doesn't matter if a couple of players end up in the hospital due to a specific play if the play ended up getting the team another touchdown, and that as far as he was concerned, even if electing Trump hurt the country, what mattered more is that the Democrats didn't win another election.
 
cabse5 said:
Ah. Letting the bad ones fail to be replaced by, hopefully, better ones is the keystone of privatization. Privatization may break the VA down into 'managable' chunks. So would having the states oversee their own VA.
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Heh, can't wait to see what a VA managed by the state of West Virginia or Arkansas would look like.
My guess is both would just punt everyone to the private system and forego creating their own VA altogether.
That means less money for the actual VA in the long run.
We know how that works out in the end.

The keystone of privatization is making money for the stockholders, nothing more.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Yeah I figured you'd hide behind HIPPA laws, as if answering a general question would violate them somehow.
Now I doubt you have had ANYONE in the system ever, and you're probably just a cheerleader.

Yeah, good-bye and thanks for "playing".
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Nah, just don't feel like digging up all the emotion to discuss my fathers injuries/illnesses with you.
 
lefty louie said:
Nah, just don't feel like digging up all the emotion to discuss my fathers injuries/illnesses with you.
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You already did when you said he was treated poorly, so I am not buying it, sorry.
My wife was treated poorly by both outside medical care in Arkansas and Memphis AND BY the Memphis VA.
Outside care kept passing her around like a broken FIAT, making guesses as to her problem but refusing to order comprehensive tests because of her runt insurance policy, and the Memphis VA kept sending her back to the beginning intake process over and over again because the doctors kept getting rotated in and out of the place like a revolving door, and that was in the late 1990's.

I didn't violate any HIPAA laws saying that, and since you and your Right wing buddies intend to destroy the care and treatment she's getting now with your privatization wet dream, I felt it was important enough to volunteer what was for both of us a pretty rotten experience.

You're just hiding behind whatever you can hide behind because I might have more insight that doesn't jibe with your "privatization=good/VA=bad" rhetoric.
 
In the end, when we moved to Dallas, the Dallas VA doctors took one look at her and fast tracked her diagnosis, treatment and benefits, and the VA has treated her like a star ever since. Every doctor she has ever had has gone the extra mile.
 
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