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Basic Income Doesn't Work

I don't fully support basic income, but at the same time I don't know how anyone could suggest that this proves it doesn't work. They gave a tiny bit of money to 2000 residents for a year to " fuel the economy and innovation." I just don't see any way for such a tiny program overall to somehow show a large effect on the entire country. I don't know the population of Finland but unless it's less than 100,000 I can't imagine this is a large enough trial to really see accurate results. But in general, the idea that basic income results in "fueling the economy and innovation" is something that will be needed even more down the road as wealth and power continues to migrate an even smaller and smaller group. No country can survive having an economy where the top .1% earn/have 90% of the wealth. That's not bashing the people that have the wealth, most of them likely earned it through an insane amount of hard work and/or risk taking. But if it continues and we get to the point where no one has cash to spend except the very wealthy then I can't imagine it will be very healthy for anybody.
 
Moderate Right said:
Tried. Failed.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/04/25/finland-basic-income-685-fails/549087002/

By the way, both liberal countries of France and Finland have unemployment rates around 10% while the US is at about 4%. When will liberals ever learn that liberalism doesn't work.
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And in other news, manned flight cancelled, due to early failures.

early flight.jpg

;)

Ya, ya, I know, I'm being a tart...but let's talk again when automation has replaced unskilled labor in America.
 
roughdraft274 said:
I don't fully support basic income, but at the same time I don't know how anyone could suggest that this proves it doesn't work. They gave a tiny bit of money to 2000 residents for a year to " fuel the economy and innovation." I just don't see any way for such a tiny program overall to somehow show a large effect on the entire country. I don't know the population of Finland but unless it's less than 100,000 I can't imagine this is a large enough trial to really see accurate results. But in general, the idea that basic income results in "fueling the economy and innovation" is something that will be needed even more down the road as wealth and power continues to migrate an even smaller and smaller group. No country can survive having an economy where the top .1% earn/have 90% of the wealth. That's not bashing the people that have the wealth, most of them likely earned it through an insane amount of hard work and/or risk taking. But if it continues and we get to the point where no one has cash to spend except the very wealthy then I can't imagine it will be very healthy for anybody.
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My biggest problem with this is if we're giving $30,000 plus benefits for being alive how do we induce people to actually gains some knowledge and skills and start on a career where the starting wage might only be $15?

Second, while I believe those of us who have attained some level of success have an obligation to help those unable to do it on their own, I also believe there are limits on that obligation and a basic wage plan far excesses those limits. Redistributing wealth is a bad idea, IMHO.

Instead of giving money and benefits we need to build a society the afford individuals the potential to succeed on his own (with minor assistance along the way). In January I read our economy had reached a record of over 6 million available job openings. We need to find ways of preparing people to fill them. Schools, trade schools, apprenticeships all come to mind.
 
I'm w/ Elon Musk on this, it doesn't make economic sense, but could be an inevitable necessary evil if AI/automation leave us a less employable and less equitable society.

I don't know how to make it work, I don't know that it can work, but failing a better idea we may have no other choice. Time will tell.
 
OlNate said:
Ya, ya, I know, I'm being a tart...but let's talk again when automation has replaced unskilled labor in America.
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You'd think ya'd see some thinking... but noooo.
 
late said:
You'd think ya'd see some thinking... but noooo.
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hehe...Mod knows me, and my sense of humor... The reality is that basic minimum income is a tough one for folks (especially conservative folks) to get their heads around, just like any other new idea that flies in the face of traditional wisdom. It's not so much a lack of thought as it is a lack of faith...maybe a lack of vision. But given the path we are currently headed down, we're going to have to figure something out, as the current model definitely has a shelf life, and we're getting close...
 
roughdraft274 said:
I don't fully support basic income, but at the same time I don't know how anyone could suggest that this proves it doesn't work. They gave a tiny bit of money to 2000 residents for a year to " fuel the economy and innovation." I just don't see any way for such a tiny program overall to somehow show a large effect on the entire country. I don't know the population of Finland but unless it's less than 100,000 I can't imagine this is a large enough trial to really see accurate results. But in general, the idea that basic income results in "fueling the economy and innovation" is something that will be needed even more down the road as wealth and power continues to migrate an even smaller and smaller group. No country can survive having an economy where the top .1% earn/have 90% of the wealth. That's not bashing the people that have the wealth, most of them likely earned it through an insane amount of hard work and/or risk taking. But if it continues and we get to the point where no one has cash to spend except the very wealthy then I can't imagine it will be very healthy for anybody.
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Nobody has ever challenged my point that every revolution ever is the direct result of unchecked feeding of greed and the hunger for power.

These things are actually addictions and as such those who get off on them will never stop trying to get more money and power. They continue to do so until their activities make life untenable for everybody else and they force them to stop.

Its the lesson of history we refuse to learn.
 
Bullseye said:
My biggest problem with this is if we're giving $30,000 plus benefits for being alive how do we induce people to actually gains some knowledge and skills and start on a career where the starting wage might only be $15?

Second, while I believe those of us who have attained some level of success have an obligation to help those unable to do it on their own, I also believe there are limits on that obligation and a basic wage plan far excesses those limits. Redistributing wealth is a bad idea, IMHO.

Instead of giving money and benefits we need to build a society the afford individuals the potential to succeed on his own (with minor assistance along the way). In January I read our economy had reached a record of over 6 million available job openings. We need to find ways of preparing people to fill them. Schools, trade schools, apprenticeships all come to mind.
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If you're referring to the plan by Sanders, that plan is to give people jobs in which they'd earn 15 an hour. They wouldn't just get that money for being alive. If you didn't mean that then my apologies. I haven't heard anyone suggest to give everyone in the country 30k a year for just being alive.

Secondly, redistributing wealth isn't a bad idea in itself unless you are talking full redistribution. As in a guy that owns a business and has killed himself for years busting his ass earns a million a year but we take all but 80K and distribute it so that the poorest amongst us earns 50k a year and the wealthiest earns like 80K. That would be disastrous. But the idea the government taxes the very wealthy more to help pay for social programs and investments back in to the country seems to me to be almost a requirement and no where near a "bad idea". Any time the government takes money and puts it towards job training, welfare, food stamps, low income health clinics, underfunded schools etc etc. you are essentially taking tax money from people that have it and giving it to people that don't have as much. But I don't know anyone that really thinks we should stop funding all of these types of programs.
 
OlNate said:
And in other news, manned flight cancelled, due to early failures.

View attachment 67232197

;)

Ya, ya, I know, I'm being a tart...but let's talk again when automation has replaced unskilled labor in America.
Click to expand...

Ya tart.


I was going to make the same point. It think it's inevitable that at some point in the future automation will become so prevalent that we won't be enough paying jobs to go around. At that point some kind of basic income guarantee probably becomes inevitable.
 
The old adage of money doesnt grow on trees has always been right.
 
OlNate said:
And in other news, manned flight cancelled, due to early failures.

View attachment 67232197

;)

Ya, ya, I know, I'm being a tart...but let's talk again when automation has replaced unskilled labor in America.
Click to expand...

AI is coming for skilled labor too. Any repetitive thinking task is at risk for machine replacement. Accounting is already starting to see it. Faster, cheaper, fewer errors.

LOTS of office jobs are in danger.

What we are seeing is the result of decades of "the wealthy are AWESOME. They all got rich through hard work. Without them we'd all he screwed. Your wages are flat because of YOUR failings. Work harder!" propaganda.

So its something people have been conditioned to.
 
Gaius46 said:
Ya tart.


I was going to make the same point. It think it's inevitable that at some point in the future automation will become so prevalent that we won't be enough paying jobs to go around. At that point some kind of basic income guarantee probably becomes inevitable.
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And the very best way to deal with it is wait until its a major problem and THEN start trying to figure out how to deal with it.
 
roughdraft274 said:
If you're referring to the plan by Sanders, that plan is to give people jobs in which they'd earn 15 an hour. They wouldn't just get that money for being alive. If you didn't mean that then my apologies. I haven't heard anyone suggest to give everyone in the country 30k a year for just being alive.
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Yeah, "jobs". :lol: One guy digs a hole and the other guy fills it in? If the have any marketable skills why not just point them at employers rather than come up with makework.

roughdraft274 said:
Secondly, redistributing wealth isn't a bad idea in itself unless you are talking full redistribution. As in a guy that owns a business and has killed himself for years busting his ass earns a million a year but we take all but 80K and distribute it so that the poorest amongst us earns 50k a year and the wealthiest earns like 80K. That would be disastrous. But the idea the government taxes the very wealthy more to help pay for social programs and investments back in to the country seems to me to be almost a requirement and no where near a "bad idea". Any time the government takes money and puts it towards job training, welfare, food stamps, low income health clinics, underfunded schools etc etc. you are essentially taking tax money from people that have it and giving it to people that don't have as much. But I don't know anyone that really thinks we should stop funding all of these types of programs.
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And we've been doing that since LBJ's Great Society - how's that working?

As I said, successful people do owe a debt to society, but it's not an open ended debt to fill every wackadoodle politicians "solution to poverty" brainfart.
 
What if...? said:
And the very best way to deal with it is wait until its a major problem and THEN start trying to figure out how to deal with it.
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What's that old saying about "the prospect of a noose focusing one's attention" ?
 
Gaius46 said:
What's that old saying about "the prospect of a noose focusing one's attention" ?
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With the modern add on of "that's not a noose. There is no noose. Nothing to see here. Move along."
 
Bullseye said:
Yeah, "jobs". :lol: One guy digs a hole and the other guy fills it in? If the have any marketable skills why not just point them at employers rather than come up with makework.

And we've been doing that since LBJ's Great Society - how's that working?

As I said, successful people do owe a debt to society, but it's not an open ended debt to fill every wackadoodle politicians "solution to poverty" brainfart.
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Sure are a lot of people still using things built by the WPA.

Too bad those useless poor people didn't try harder so their work would last forever, right?

Decades later it needs repair.

Shoddy.
 
What if...? said:
Sure are a lot of people still using things built by the WPA.

Too bad those useless poor people didn't try harder so their work would last forever, right?

Decades later it needs repair.

Shoddy.
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LOL, if you're referring to your post as "shoddy" I totally agree. Has no bearing on current conversation at all.
 
Bullseye said:
LOL, if you're referring to your post as "shoddy" I totally agree. Has no bearing on current conversation at all.
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You claimed work projects were just digging holes and filling them again.

I demonstrated that that isn't always the case.

The WPA built a lot of durable infrastructure while providing income during the great depression.

And considering the state of our roads and bridges it would probably be a win-win to do it again.
 
What if...? said:
AI is coming for skilled labor too. Any repetitive thinking task is at risk for machine replacement. Accounting is already starting to see it. Faster, cheaper, fewer errors.

LOTS of office jobs are in danger.

What we are seeing is the result of decades of "the wealthy are AWESOME. They all got rich through hard work. Without them we'd all he screwed. Your wages are flat because of YOUR failings. Work harder!" propaganda.

So its something people have been conditioned to.
Click to expand...

I think the big scary one is autonomous trucks. Driving truck is a "low skill" job that still pays a decent livable wage. ~3 million Americans drive truck. AB-Inbev and UPS both have big orders in for them. Can't speak to UPS, but AB-Inbev doesn't spend a single cent they don't plan to turn into something that will earn them more profits, so clearly this autonomous truck thing is getting traction, even if it's not perfected yet.

Farming, manufacturing, call centers, accountants, logistics support, all of these are prime candidates for full automation, and the list grows exponentially when you consider the number of jobs that currently require more than one person that could be supplemented with machine help.

As these portions of the work force are automated, it forces everyone into competition for the remaining jobs, allowing companies to pay less, thanks to the law of supply and demand, once again adding to profits. So, it's not just a blue collar problem either.

Maybe it's a good thing you guys have such an extensive prison system...I mean, at least that will give folks the opportunity for food and shelter...though at some point that will collapse as tax revenue dries up, because far fewer people will have incomes to tax, or will be buying goods and services that can be taxed.

Normally I don't do the chicken little thing, but I think this isn't as far off as some people would like to believe. Not that it has to be bad...we just really have to change what we reward in society, and how we do that, as well as how we look after our society, given the bed we've made. Time for something new. :)
 
Bullseye said:
Yeah, "jobs". :lol: One guy digs a hole and the other guy fills it in? If the have any marketable skills why not just point them at employers rather than come up with makework.

And we've been doing that since LBJ's Great Society - how's that working?

As I said, successful people do owe a debt to society, but it's not an open ended debt to fill every wackadoodle politicians "solution to poverty" brainfart.
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Part of the program is specifically that. Either training people for available work or lining them up with work they can do. If your notion is honestly that he is proposing to get everyone that needs a job to do absolutely useless work for 8 hours a day then you really need to consider how your biases are affecting your perception of reality imho.
 
What if...? said:
You claimed work projects were just digging holes and filling them again.
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No, actually, I didn't.

What if...? said:
I demonstrated that that isn't always the case.

The WPA built a lot of durable infrastructure while providing income during the great depression.

And considering the state of our roads and bridges it would probably be a win-win to do it again.
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I'm well aware of the WPA and other New Deal alphabet agencies. How those were don't when the nation's economy was in the dumps and unemployment was in the double digits and hoards of unemployed men roamed the streets. None of which we have right now. We trying the shovel-ready infrastructure thing recently it was a bust.
 
This thread is hysterical coming from the right. One experiment that was stopped (doesn't even support that it doesn't work), and there are claims that it doesn't work. over 40 years of giving tax cuts to the break not working, and yet they still continue to believe it works and support giving rich people tax breaks.

The level of stupid, dishonesty, and absolute brainwashing from so many on the right is really appalling.

What if...? said:
Nobody has ever challenged my point that every revolution ever is the direct result of unchecked feeding of greed and the hunger for power.

These things are actually addictions and as such those who get off on them will never stop trying to get more money and power. They continue to do so until their activities make life untenable for everybody else and they force them to stop.

Its the lesson of history we refuse to learn.
Click to expand...

They keep that going, they are going to find their heads on pikes whne the people finally rise up and have enough (and idiot right winger turn off propaganda) and realize the rich are robbing this country blind
 
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