We Have a Spending Problem

Helix said:

if the programs need additional funding, raise taxes.

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great patriotic American who is happy to screw the next generation? They don't deserve that because your generation made a mess of things.

James972 said:

great patriotic American who is happy to screw the next generation? They don't deserve that because your generation made a mess of things.

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which generation is that?

Helix said:

which generation is that?

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Baby boomers created and paid into SS, then they let liberal govt steal their money, and now you want to raise taxes on the next generation to cover your mistakes.

James972 said:

great patriotic American who is happy to screw the next generation? They don't deserve that because your generation made a mess of things.

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We are witnessing -- right now -- your Republican Party slashing taxes and increasing spending, which is screwing the next generation. Trump 8itched about the "$20 trillion debt," and if he stays in office, he will leave with a $30 trillion debt. It sure is clear to me that you argue from the position of blind partisanship and ignorance.

MTAtech said:

We are witnessing -- right now -- your Republican Party slashing taxes and increasing spending,

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100% goofy since what you describe would be impossible if Democrats had passed or supported and Balanced Budget Amendment

MTAtech said:

It sure is clear to me that you argue from the position of blind partisanship and ignorance.

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where is the blind ignorance

James972 said:

100% goofy since what you describe would be impossible if Democrats had passed or supported and Balanced Budget Amendment

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If you want a balanced budget amendment, go talk your Republican Party into the idea. Then come back. I'm sure you will get far with the political party that now believes that deficits and debt only matter when Democrats are in office.

Moreover, the deficit will be about $1 trillion in 2018. Now, to balance the budget you either need to cut huge parts of spending or raise taxes -- or both. What specifically will YOU cut and how much would YOU raise taxes?

MTAtech said:

If you want a balanced budget amendment, go talk your Republican Party into the idea.

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many Republicans support the idea and it will pass Congress as soon as there is enough support for it. So far as I know there is no support among libcommie Democrats?

No, saying "we have a spending problem" misses the point. What we really have is a problem applying economics, the politics of spending tend to get in the way.

OrphanSlug said:

No, saying "we have a spending problem" misses the point. What we really have is a problem applying economics, the politics of spending tend to get in the way.

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What we have is a morality problem, a willingness to be a burden to other generations because we are unwilling to live within our means.

OrphanSlug said:

No, saying "we have a spending problem" misses the point. What we really have is a problem applying economics, the politics of spending tend to get in the way.

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what economics would you want to apply?

jonny5 said:

Yeah, I know. Duh. But let me break it down for you.

-In FY2017, the federal govt collected 3.32 trillion dollars. It spent 3.99 trillion.

The two largest outlays are
-Social Security - 934bn
-Medicare - 678bn

Luckily these have direct taxes which pay for part of them, 1200bn. This covers Social Security, and Medicare Part A (hospitals).

Unfortunately there is also
-part B (insurance) which is funded almost entirely from federal income tax, 235bn
-part D (drugs) which is 80% funded by FIT, 82bn

But, we havent even gotten through all the mandatory spending yet, which consumes almost every other dollar of general revenue, (1500bn FIT, 300bn corporate, 300bn excises and other.)

Medicaid - 375bn
Income security - 300bn
Federal pensions - 163bn
Veterans programs - 106bn
Other mandatory - 120bn
Interest - 300bn

So, just mandatory alone consumes all of payroll tax, and about 1700bn of general revenue. Thats about 2800bn, leaving about 400bn for all other functions of govt. And we spend too much on that as well.

Defense-600bn
Justice-64bn
Science-30bn
Energy-8bn
Foreign Affairs-46bn
Environment - 42bn
Agriculture-25bn
Commerce-16bn
Transportation-92bn
Community Development - 28bn
Education - 113bn
General Govt - 24bn
Veterans - 70bn


So, another way to look at it is, we have more than enough general revenue (2100bn) to pay for all the main functions of govt (1200bn), and enough payroll taxes (1200bn) to pay for Social Security and Hospitals (1200bn), and even a little left over (900bn) to pay for Veterans, Federal Pensions, and interest, but we have to borrow to pay for welfare.

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Yes you do have a spending problem and you will forever have a spending problem as long as you continue to sell your votes to the highest bidder.

James972 said:

what economics would you want to apply?

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For starters... when it is necessary for the Federal Government to spend beyond revenue, and perhaps more importantly when it is not necessary.

<alt>doxygen said:

But Trump didn't cut spending. He cut taxes, which makes the problem worse. And now he's about to increase spending even more.

Did it ever occur to you that if you "have a spending problem" you might want to work on that side of the ledger before handing out goodies to all of your friends, thus making things worse?

How the right doesn't get whiplash when they do this, I'll never understand.

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I have seen the budget.

We now know who will be paying for the massive permanent corporate tax cuts. Those poor Trump supporters are in for a shock when there food stamps are replaced by dry milk and government cheese. Some of them will paying extra rent when their HUD vouchers are cut back. Trump wants 8.8 billion cut from the program. But hey cheer up financial strapped Trump supporters, they are not done taking away your health care.

How does it feel to win?

Fearandloathing said:

Yes you do have a spending problem and you will forever have a spending problem as long as you continue to sell your votes to the highest bidder.

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Isn't that what Republicans do with tax-cuts? They buy support, in votes and campaign contributions, in exchange for borrowing money to issue as tax-cuts, typically to the wealthiest Americans.

jonny5 said:

Yeah, I know. Duh. But let me break it down for you.

-In FY2017, the federal govt collected 3.32 trillion dollars. It spent 3.99 trillion.

The two largest outlays are
-Social Security - 934bn
-Medicare - 678bn

Luckily these have direct taxes which pay for part of them, 1200bn. This covers Social Security, and Medicare Part A (hospitals).

Unfortunately there is also
-part B (insurance) which is funded almost entirely from federal income tax, 235bn
-part D (drugs) which is 80% funded by FIT, 82bn

But, we havent even gotten through all the mandatory spending yet, which consumes almost every other dollar of general revenue, (1500bn FIT, 300bn corporate, 300bn excises and other.)

Medicaid - 375bn
Income security - 300bn
Federal pensions - 163bn
Veterans programs - 106bn
Other mandatory - 120bn
Interest - 300bn

So, just mandatory alone consumes all of payroll tax, and about 1700bn of general revenue. Thats about 2800bn, leaving about 400bn for all other functions of govt. And we spend too much on that as well.

Defense-600bn
Justice-64bn
Science-30bn
Energy-8bn
Foreign Affairs-46bn
Environment - 42bn
Agriculture-25bn
Commerce-16bn
Transportation-92bn
Community Development - 28bn
Education - 113bn
General Govt - 24bn
Veterans - 70bn


So, another way to look at it is, we have more than enough general revenue (2100bn) to pay for all the main functions of govt (1200bn), and enough payroll taxes (1200bn) to pay for Social Security and Hospitals (1200bn), and even a little left over (900bn) to pay for Veterans, Federal Pensions, and interest, but we have to borrow to pay for welfare.

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Every successful major enterprise (which is vastly distinct from an individual household) is in debt. It's part of how the modern economy works. Amazon is one of the most successful companies in the world, but it is constantly in the red. The reason for this is that while it's taking in huge amounts of cash every year, it is also investing in what is needed to make money next year. This is similar to how some households will go into the red to pay for college, job training, etc, in order to make more money next year. The difference is that a corporation has a totally different scale to it and dynamics. As such, it is continuously re-investing so it will continually be profitable.

A government is no different. People are happily throwing money into the American government, why do you think there's no hardship for the US to take on debt? It's because people believe that it is a safe bet that they will get their money back with interest, and the reason they believe this is because the US is (or rather, really should be, but isn't doing nearly enough of) continuously investing in its economy, its workforce, its infrastructure, its technology, and its expertise. That means that the US will operate in the red in perpetuity --if it hopes to remain a powerful civilization. The only time the US operated in the black and intentionally so was during Jackson's years, and he nearly bankrupted the country because he halted the economy and caused the worst economic crash in US history until the Great Depression (which itself was in no small measure caused by classical liberalism, i.e. the libertarianism or what we now call neoliberalism --in other words, don't invest in your country's work force, education, infrastructure, or social safety nets and instead give massive tax breaks).

So yeah, too much debt is a problem. But the existence of debt in general is not a problem. A much better thing to think about is what should government money be spent on. That's a much more important question.

James972 said:

Baby boomers created and paid into SS, then they let liberal govt steal their money, and now you want to raise taxes on the next generation to cover your mistakes.

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i'm GenX. try again.

jonny5 said:

Yeah, I know. Duh. But let me break it down for you.

-In FY2017, the federal govt collected 3.32 trillion dollars. It spent 3.99 trillion.

The two largest outlays are
-Social Security - 934bn
-Medicare - 678bn

Luckily these have direct taxes which pay for part of them, 1200bn. This covers Social Security, and Medicare Part A (hospitals).

Unfortunately there is also
-part B (insurance) which is funded almost entirely from federal income tax, 235bn
-part D (drugs) which is 80% funded by FIT, 82bn

But, we havent even gotten through all the mandatory spending yet, which consumes almost every other dollar of general revenue, (1500bn FIT, 300bn corporate, 300bn excises and other.)

Medicaid - 375bn
Income security - 300bn
Federal pensions - 163bn
Veterans programs - 106bn
Other mandatory - 120bn
Interest - 300bn

So, just mandatory alone consumes all of payroll tax, and about 1700bn of general revenue. Thats about 2800bn, leaving about 400bn for all other functions of govt. And we spend too much on that as well.

Defense-600bn
Justice-64bn
Science-30bn
Energy-8bn
Foreign Affairs-46bn
Environment - 42bn
Agriculture-25bn
Commerce-16bn
Transportation-92bn
Community Development - 28bn
Education - 113bn
General Govt - 24bn
Veterans - 70bn


So, another way to look at it is, we have more than enough general revenue (2100bn) to pay for all the main functions of govt (1200bn), and enough payroll taxes (1200bn) to pay for Social Security and Hospitals (1200bn), and even a little left over (900bn) to pay for Veterans, Federal Pensions, and interest, but we have to borrow to pay for welfare.

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One month after passing a tax cut that will add $1.5T to the deficit, you have the temerity to tell us we have a "spending problem".... sorry, your party loses all rights to this assertion.

Check back with us this time next year....

upsideguy said:

One month after passing a tax cut that will add $1.5T to the deficit, you have the temerity to tell us we have a "spending problem".... sorry, your party loses all rights to this assertion.

Check back with us this time next year....

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The Stock market added over $8 trillion in wealth, minus the stock market correction. This surplus of net wealth was based on Trump's promise for a tax cut and tax reform. Trump is in the plus, if you combine the entire country. This is the type of bold investment we need. A new business, when starting out, will run a deficit for several years, until they turn the corner, then they run a profit. They anticipate better times are ahead and will take the risk. The business world saw Trump as a man of his word, and reacted to his promises, even before they were cast in stone. This is sort of how the stock market works; speculation based on anticipated improvements that will reap future profits.

Trump from the beginning, wanted to trim the waste in government. After a year of 100% Democrat obstruction and negative propaganda, to anything Trump does, cutting government waste and fat, although good for the country, would lead to a congressional and senate stalemate. The Republicans do not have the lock step votes, like the Democrats, to make it happen. The only budget deal he could get from the Democrats, so everyone is involved, requires continued waste and higher deficits. Democrats are more comfortable with waste, since that means skim. Trump has not signed any budget into law, yet. This is the opening bid in the negotiations. Trump will trim it back, until he just gets the votes he needs.

Helix said:

i've already heard the talking points and deflections. i've paid into SS and Medicare for my entire career, and i intend to collect those benefits. i will vote against any politicians who want to deny me those benefits in order to give rich people more money or to do other stupid things with it, and i'm not alone. if the programs need additional funding, raise taxes. we should have had single payer health for all Americans care during the Truman administration. then we wouldn't be pounding money down a rat hole at a rate faster than any other first world nation.

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Youve only paid into SS and Medicare Part A and those wont be changing, so thats moot. Let discuss the things that arent funded and do need to change.

MTAtech said:

We are witnessing -- right now -- your Republican Party slashing taxes and increasing spending, which is screwing the next generation. Trump 8itched about the "$20 trillion debt," and if he stays in office, he will leave with a $30 trillion debt. It sure is clear to me that you argue from the position of blind partisanship and ignorance.

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Democrats voted to increase spending too. It sure is clear to me that you argue from the position of blind partisanship and ignorance.

jonny5 said:

Youve only paid into SS and Medicare Part A and those wont be changing, so thats moot. Let discuss the things that arent funded and do need to change.

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Unfortunately, those who are in charge right now want to cut these programs. I don't support doing that.

MTAtech said:

If you want a balanced budget amendment, go talk your Republican Party into the idea. Then come back. I'm sure you will get far with the political party that now believes that deficits and debt only matter when Democrats are in office.

Moreover, the deficit will be about $1 trillion in 2018. Now, to balance the budget you either need to cut huge parts of spending or raise taxes -- or both. What specifically will YOU cut and how much would YOU raise taxes?

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Easy. Cut everything, and raise taxes on the bottom half that dont pay any. Time for them to pay their fair share, especially when theyre the ones benefiting the most from it. As a group they account for 1.5 trillion in gross income and only pay 32bn in income taxes on it.

Helix said:

Unfortunately, those who are in charge right now want to cut these programs. I don't support doing that.

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Lip service, no one is cutting benefits for those nearing retirement. So again, how about we discuss Part B which is unfunded by 235bn a year, or Part D which is unfunded by 80bn. Or medicaid, schip, food stamps, housing, ag subsidies, roads, nasa, and sure, the military.