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For every Amazon package it delivers, the Postal Service loses $1.46

Visbek said:
Well, let's see.

On a fundamental level, you're suggesting that a vendor put the screws to a big client, because they are a big client. You're assuming that this will have no negative repercussions for the USPS, and/or that the USPS has the upper hand. All of those assumptions seem to be deeply flawed.

USPS is already in serious trouble, as it's trying to transition from delivering letters (and junk mail) to delivering packages. They can't take many of the steps they'd need to get things under control, because Congress has ordered them to pay forward their pension obligations, and refuses to let them close unprofitable post offices. The USPS needs to maximize the utilization of their system. They cannot afford to lose much of Amazon's business.

Further, Amazon's net income in 2016 was around $2.3 billion; the USPS lost around $5.6 billion. I believe Amazon is sitting on around $17bn in cash, too.

Now, I will admit I haven't negotiated on the half of multi-billion dollar companies. But I'm pretty sure that when your back is to the wall, and a big customer has the will and wherewithal to replace you at the drop of a hat, you probably don't want to tell them to "pay more or take a hike." 'Cause they will do just that.

Last but not least: Amazon and the USPS already worked out a deal. And from what I've seen, there is no indication that the USPS is actually losing money on the deal overall.
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No, I'm not suggesting they put the screws to Amazon. I'm suggesting they see if there is any room to negotiate.

It would really help if ANY of the people that are disagreeing with me would just read what's there and look at it as a negotiation. Every player in a market is looking to get maximum dollars for their good or service, why should USPS be any different?
 
Lord of Planar said:
Taxpayers don't subsidize the USPS. Amazons packages do profit the USPS. They get a discounted rate. That's all.
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If it is true the USPS is losing money, someone is picking up the shortfall and I strongly suspect it’s the taxpayer. Who else could it be?
 
OpportunityCost said:
No, I'm not suggesting they put the screws to Amazon. I'm suggesting they see if there is any room to negotiate.

It would really help if ANY of the people that are disagreeing with me would just read what's there and look at it as a negotiation. Every player in a market is looking to get maximum dollars for their good or service, why should USPS be any different?
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Where is the sweet spot on the profit curve?

As you raise prices, volume will be reduced. As you decrease prices, volume will increase.

To think raising prices will increase profits is rather ignorant. Consider if I raised prices to $1,000,000 per package. I would likely ship no packages and make zero revenue. If I decreased prices to zero, I would have all the business, but lose on every package.

The USPS is not losing money of Amazon shipments. That is someones propaganda.
 
chuckiechan said:
If it is true the USPS is losing money, someone is picking up the shortfall and I strongly suspect it’s the taxpayer. Who else could it be?
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That isn't the case either.

Congress has demanded payments into employee benefits covered, that no other government agency pays. Outside of this payment that the USPS falls behind on each year, they actually make money on average if they didn't have to do the 75 year prefunding.
 
Superfly said:
:lol: Just like clockwork - Trump complains about the USPS, and now all his minions have to complain about it, too.
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Trump says they are being under paid, and that they should renegotiate the deal. what is bad about talking about what the news reported? It's pretty sad state of affairs that when things leftists would usually support, like this, or the Iranian peoples uprising is cast aside because trump talks about it.


It's like clockwork. Trump could push for single payer and global warming laws and you and your ilk would complain. look in the mirror. you are doing worse.
 
Lord of Planar said:
That isn't the case either.

Congress has demanded payments into employee benefits covered, that no other government agency pays. Outside of this payment that the USPS falls behind on each year, they actually make money on average if they didn't have to do the 75 year prefunding.
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There you go folks. The power of a union to manipulate government, melded with competitor lobbyists protecting their own.
 
chuckiechan said:
For every Amazon package it delivers, the Postal Service loses $1.46

The Postal Service is required to deliver to every mailbox or mail slot at the same level and price for everyone. Now that mail has receded, and package delivery has grown, the numbers no longer work. So as taxpayers, we are subsidizing Amazon’s delivery expense.

Being that the Postal Service is a constitutional entity, it will be an open question as to how this changes, but in fairness, it needs to change.
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No, the tax payers aren't subsidizing Amazon's delivery expenses. The USPS controls their fees for delivery. If they are losing money on package delivery then it's the USPS issue with fees and it's a problem with anyone who uses them for parcel delivery, and not unique to Amazon. So, at best, you could say that the tax payers are subsidizing everyone's packages because the USPS have a flawed model.

That said, I'll always support the USPS existing, even if they are difficult to deal with. It's mandated in the Constitution and it's a very important service that needs to be maintained.
 
OpportunityCost said:
No, I'm not suggesting they put the screws to Amazon. I'm suggesting they see if there is any room to negotiate.

It would really help if ANY of the people that are disagreeing with me would just read what's there and look at it as a negotiation.
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It would really help if you accepted that Amazon and the USPS already negotiated those rates.

They struck a deal 2013, and it includes USPS delivering packages on Sunday, as well as discounts due to Amazon's volume.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-30/it-s-amazon-s-world-the-usps-just-delivers-in-it
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Trump says they are being under paid, and that they should renegotiate the deal. what is bad about talking about what the news reported?
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The problem is that:

1) Trump doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

2) Trump doesn't give a crap about the USPS. He's attacking the deal, because he wants to attack Amazon, because Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post.

The USPS isn't subsidized by the taxpayer. The USPS negotiated these rates with Amazon. The USPS is in a precarious position already, for reasons completely unrelated to this deal; and without Amazon's business, USPS is in very deep ****.


It's pretty sad state of affairs that when things leftists would usually support, like this, or the Iranian peoples uprising is cast aside because trump talks about it.
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Leftists have been critical of Amazon for quite some time, in particular its poor labor practices in warehouses and its own delivery service ("Amazon Flex"). Those types of criticisms have not suddenly disappeared overnight.

However, that doesn't change the fact that this is just more Twit Trump Tweeting.


It's like clockwork. Trump could push for single payer and global warming laws and you and your ilk would complain. look in the mirror. you are doing worse.
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It's like clockwork. Trump could Tweet anything, and his Loyal Subjects will reflexively eat it up. Sad!
 
Visbek said:
The problem is that:

1) Trump doesn't know his ass from his elbow.
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He is a smart man. Just not on this topic, and really needs better advisors on it.

Visbek said:
2) Trump doesn't give a crap about the USPS. He's attacking the deal, because he wants to attack Amazon, because Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post.
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This is possible in my opinion.
 
chuckiechan said:
There are “free markets” and there are “subsidized markets”. Amazon is getting a legal, unexpected subsidy of taxpayer largesse.
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So is your issue with Amazon making use of a failure to adapt by the government, or with the government for failing to adapt?
 
NeverTrumpGOP said:
So conservatives are once again willing to part with their so-called righteous ideals and support crazy government regulations?
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Conservatives = Anarchist now? No wonder you identify more with a political party than a political ideology.

The Postal Service is a constitutionally mandated government entity. Government entities must be regulated by the government by their very nature. Conservatism believes in a limited, but not non-existant, governmental structure; with said limits being guided by the constitution. Desiring changing regulations and policies regarding a government entity for it to more effectively and efficiently perform its constitutionally required duties while minimizing it's ability to allow tax payer money to be used in ways beyond the scope of it's primary constitutional purpose is not antithetical to US stylized conservative ideology but rather is a pretty clear cut example of it.
 
Zyphlin said:
The Postal Service is an entity of the free market rather than a government entity?
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USPS operates as a for-profit business. It is not a government agency. It is not part of the federal budget.

Congress has significant control over certain aspects of the business. E.g. USPS can't close underperforming offices, because constituents would throw a rod. Congress has also forced the USPS to pay far more into its pension system than any private business.

USPS made a deal with Amazon about prices and Sunday delivery in 2013. That was pretty much all about business operations and negotiations.
 
Visbek said:
The problem is that:

1) Trump doesn't know his ass from his elbow.

2) Trump doesn't give a crap about the USPS. He's attacking the deal, because he wants to attack Amazon, because Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post.

The USPS isn't subsidized by the taxpayer. The USPS negotiated these rates with Amazon. The USPS is in a precarious position already, for reasons completely unrelated to this deal; and without Amazon's business, USPS is in very deep ****.
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So when it operates as a deficiet how does it continue to operate, function, and pay it's employees.


Leftists have been critical of Amazon for quite some time, in particular its poor labor practices in warehouses and its own delivery service ("Amazon Flex"). Those types of criticisms have not suddenly disappeared overnight.
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Are you for real? This is about the USPS charging more to fix the losses, not about amazon.


It's like clockwork. Trump could Tweet anything, and his Loyal Subjects will reflexively eat it up. Sad!
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You got it backward he tweets and the useful idiots on the left who have insane tantrums over hist tweets based on what the idiots in the media tell you what to get upset about.

Its pretty sad how hysterical your ilk gets over bull****.
 
Visbek said:
It would really help if you accepted that Amazon and the USPS already negotiated those rates.

They struck a deal 2013, and it includes USPS delivering packages on Sunday, as well as discounts due to Amazon's volume.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-30/it-s-amazon-s-world-the-usps-just-delivers-in-it
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Whole story at your link:

In cities such as San Francisco and New York, letter carriers have been showing up on people’s doorsteps as early as 3 a.m. bearing unusual cargo: milk, eggs, and other perishable items. The U.S. Postal Service has been delivering groceries to customers of Amazon.com in selected areas since October 2014. “It’s just leveraging our infrastructure,” says Megan Brennan, who was sworn in as America’s 74th postmaster general in March, becoming the first woman to hold the job in the institution’s 240-year history. “We’re on people’s doorstep six days a week, seven days a week in some cases. It’s just a logical progression.”
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It doesn't really say as much as you clam it does.
 
Kushinator said:
You're attacking a man made from straw rather than addressing my statement.



You meant microeconomics.... And you speak of validity :lol:
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Care to discuss the topic? If you did not mean that, what did you mean? Elaborate.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
Trump says they are being under paid, and that they should renegotiate the deal. what is bad about talking about what the news reported? It's pretty sad state of affairs that when things leftists would usually support, like this, or the Iranian peoples uprising is cast aside because trump talks about it.


It's like clockwork. Trump could push for single payer and global warming laws and you and your ilk would complain. look in the mirror. you are doing worse.
Click to expand...

You like to use the phrase "you and your ilk" alot. Does that make you feel superior?

Just curious.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
So when it operates as a deficiet how does it continue to operate, function, and pay it's employees.
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Like other businesses, it borrows to cover its deficits. It gets a break when it borrows from the Treasury, but it is still obligated to pay off those debts.

Congress ended its direct subsidies to the USPS in 1983.

It does have some unique tax breaks -- e.g. FedEx pays property and other state taxes, USPS does not. I think we can call that a subsidy... if we apply that logic to all tax breaks, including to other corporations and individuals. You good with that?


Are you for real? This is about the USPS charging more to fix the losses, not about amazon.
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:roll:

The deal with Amazon is not causing the USPS's losses -- it's helping to keep the USPS alive. What is costing the USPS so much money is a) Congress forcing it to prepay massive pension obligations, b) Congress refusing to let the USPS streamline, close underutilized offices, pare back staff, c) Congress refusing to allow the USPS to increase its base rates, and so on.

Meanwhile, you accused leftists of reflexively siding with Amazon, when in fact they've been critical of Amazon. Seems odd.


You got it backward he tweets and the useful idiots on the left who have insane tantrums over hist tweets based on what the idiots in the media tell you what to get upset about.

Its pretty sad how hysterical your ilk gets over bull****.
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lol

The idea that it is only the left which has reflexive reactions is downright hilarious. (One of my favorites is the people who were triggered by NPR Tweeting the Declaration of Independence on July 4th; some passionate right-wingers insisted this was NPR advocating a violent revolution, that this showed NPR's "lefty" bias, that NPR should be defunded.) Public hysteria over trivialities is not a tendency of any particular point of view.

This thread in and of itself shows the reflexive nature of some of those leaning to the right. In particular, an analyst (whose firm btw holds stock in FedEx...) started making noise about this in July. Was there a 20-page thread, blasting Amazon and/or the USPS then? No? I wonder, what could have possibly happened last week that kicked off this discussion. I can't remember what it is. It's on the tip of my tongue, I'm sure I'll figure it out sooner or later....

Oh, I know. It was Trump telling people to get upset at Amazon because they made a deal with the USPS for a volume discount. (And because Amazon is owned by Jeff Bezos, who also now owns the Washington Post, which has dared to be critical of Trump.)
 
OpportunityCost said:
Whole story at your link:

It doesn't really say as much as you clam it does.
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You should keep reading.

The USPS doesn’t disclose much about its relationship with Amazon, citing confidentiality agreements. Amazon didn’t respond to several requests for comment. David Vernon, an analyst at Bernstein Research who tracks the shipping industry, estimates the USPS handled 40 percent of Amazon’s volume last year—or almost 150 million items—more than either United Parcel Service or FedEx. He figures that Amazon pays the USPS $2 per package, which is about half what it would pay UPS and FedEx. Vernon says Amazon receives a deep discount from the USPS because the e-tailer does so much of its own processing—including providing computerized address lists to make it easier for carriers to tailor their delivery routes for faster drop-offs. “I think [Amazon’s] idea was, why give this volume to FedEx when we can just sort it ourselves?” Vernon says. “Because it’s not that hard.”

Brennan needs all the new business she can get. In 2014 first-class mail volume fell 3 percent compared with the previous year, to 64 billion pieces. Advertising mail, which some people refer to as junk mail, remained essentially unchanged. But the USPS’s package volume climbed 8 percent from the year before, to 4 billion items, and accounted for 20 percent of the agency’s $68 billion operating revenue.

Both USPS and Amazon did not disclose details on the deal
Terms Of Deal For US Postal Service (USPS) To Deliver Amazon (AMZN) Packages Not Revealed By USPS Or Amazon

2016 negotiations, which extended Amazon's deal to Amazon Sellers
https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2016/01/19/amazon-deal-usps-gives-sellers-unprecedented-discounts/

Do you really need a wall of links?
 
Visbek said:
You should keep reading.

The USPS doesn’t disclose much about its relationship with Amazon, citing confidentiality agreements. Amazon didn’t respond to several requests for comment. David Vernon, an analyst at Bernstein Research who tracks the shipping industry, estimates the USPS handled 40 percent of Amazon’s volume last year—or almost 150 million items—more than either United Parcel Service or FedEx. He figures that Amazon pays the USPS $2 per package, which is about half what it would pay UPS and FedEx. Vernon says Amazon receives a deep discount from the USPS because the e-tailer does so much of its own processing—including providing computerized address lists to make it easier for carriers to tailor their delivery routes for faster drop-offs. “I think [Amazon’s] idea was, why give this volume to FedEx when we can just sort it ourselves?” Vernon says. “Because it’s not that hard.”

Brennan needs all the new business she can get. In 2014 first-class mail volume fell 3 percent compared with the previous year, to 64 billion pieces. Advertising mail, which some people refer to as junk mail, remained essentially unchanged. But the USPS’s package volume climbed 8 percent from the year before, to 4 billion items, and accounted for 20 percent of the agency’s $68 billion operating revenue.

Both USPS and Amazon did not disclose details on the deal
Terms Of Deal For US Postal Service (USPS) To Deliver Amazon (AMZN) Packages Not Revealed By USPS Or Amazon

2016 negotiations, which extended Amazon's deal to Amazon Sellers
https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2016/01/19/amazon-deal-usps-gives-sellers-unprecedented-discounts/

Do you really need a wall of links?
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No, if you want to assert something I need you to have your link say that. The first link you posted did not. According to the paragraph you have above you don't know anymore about the deals than anyone else, confidentiality is cited. None of your sources are really making your point, you are just assuming they do.
 
OpportunityCost said:
No, if you want to assert something I need you to have your link say that. The first link you posted did not. According to the paragraph you have above you don't know anymore about the deals than anyone else, confidentiality is cited. None of your sources are really making your point, you are just assuming they do.
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:roll:

Please, try to actually read.

What I said was: They negotiated rates and Sunday delivery in 2013.
My links say: They negotiated rates and Sunday delivery in 2013.

I know it's hard, but: Since you were wrong, you should just admit you were wrong.
 
RetiredUSN said:
I'm not a Trump guy, but I prefer UPS over the post office.

The post office is chock full of lazy assholes, and incompetence, and I know this from first hand experience.
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That opinion is complete garbage. The issue is that we under-resource public services, so it's no wonder that things like USPS and the DMV are punching bags.

It wouldn't hurt you to pay some respect to public service for once. Those grunts aren't to blame for systemic mismanagement.
 
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