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The Koch Brothers Have a Plan to Make the Tax Bill Popular

SheWolf said:
I agree with you, but the term costs to the country isn't worth it. The GOP deserves to lose young voters for this. Younger voters are going to be left with massive debts and high tax rates because of this gimmick.
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The bill definitely isn't worth it. I support just about anything that directly gets more money to the middle class, but I don't think the wealthy need any help. I haven't seen anything on how young Republicans feel about this. I'd hope that they do piss of that portion of their base considering how it will affect them.
 
MrPeanut said:
They will see it initially, hence why it will see an increase in popularity in the beginning. Long term it is a crappy bill for the middle class.
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Please expand on that thought.
 
code1211 said:
Please expand on that thought.
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Tax cuts historically yield only a temporary burst of increased economic activity and then the trend is retrograde to recession.

Individual/family tax cuts expire but corporate tax cuts do not expire. 4-5% economic growth over a decade is required to pay for this GOP tax bill and make it revenue-neutral. Such a sustained rate has not occurred since WWII with its monumental production of war products.

5-6% won't happen due to already low unemployment, an aging population and negative population replacement rate, corporations are already sitting on trillions of dollars, expanding/hiring is well down on the list of CEO tax bonanza objectives, automation and robotics are increasing exponentially, the global trade atmosphere souring due to Trump mismanagement.

What we will have then by 2025 is a revenue-negative tax bill situation with insufficient federal revenue's, most likely a recession, a ballooned deficit with higher interest payments. Since the corporate tax cuts are permanent, the middle class will get stuck trying to pay off the indecent GOP tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. The young generation of today and their children will get stuck with an incredible tab.
 
code1211 said:
Please expand on that thought.
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Distributional Analysis of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act as Passed by the Senate | Full Report | Tax Policy Center

Some taxpayers would pay more in taxes under the proposal in 2019 and 2025than under current law—about 7 percent of taxpayers in 2019 and 10 percent in 2025. In 2027, however, taxes would increase for 48 percent of taxpayers compared with current law.

This isn't factoring in the removal of the individual mandate, and the increases in healthcare prices that are tied to that. The analysis from the Tax Policy Center is about as much as a softball as you can get, and it still shows a tax increase for about half of all taxpayers in 2027.

The problem here is that Republicans are basically saying it isn't accurate because of course sometime in the future they will correct the issue. I don't trust them to do that. The repeal of the individual mandate is an example of letting philosophy clash with reality. It will increase healthcare costs. We just have to wait and see by how much. Yes, "freedom" and "bald eagles" are a great talking point, but how free is someone that can't afford to go to the doctor? I'd argue that the real costs of this bill are more in line with the JCT estimates, but I won't use them as a reference because I don't believe in loosely estimating things.
 
Rogue Valley said:
Tax cuts historically yield only a temporary burst of increased economic activity and then the trend is retrograde to recession.

Individual/family tax cuts expire but corporate tax cuts do not expire. 4-5% economic growth over a decade is required to pay for this GOP tax bill and make it revenue-neutral. Such a sustained rate has not occurred since WWII with its monumental production of war products.

5-6% won't happen due to already low unemployment, an aging population and negative population replacement rate, corporations are already sitting on trillions of dollars, expanding/hiring is well down on the list of CEO tax bonanza objectives, automation and robotics are increasing exponentially, the global trade atmosphere souring due to Trump mismanagement.

What we will have then by 2025 is a revenue-negative tax bill situation with insufficient federal revenue's, most likely a recession, a ballooned deficit with higher interest payments. Since the corporate tax cuts are permanent, the middle class will get stuck trying to pay off the indecent GOP tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. The young generation of today and their children will get stuck with an incredible tab.
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You make grand generalizations with no support.

There is some real world evidence in the link below that completely destroys your argument:

Please note in the linked table that the increased federal revenues in the 3 years following the Bush tax cuts was about 1.5 Trillion over 3 years.

Please note that the Federal receipts following the Reagan Tax Reform increased vs the 1984 receipts by annually increasing percentages finally topping out at the 49% increase in 1989.

A single year increase of 49 percent increase in receipts over the projected 2017 receipts would equal more than the 1.5 trillion you seem to think is impossible for the ten year period.

Thinking that beneficially good things are impossible seems to be a defining characteristic of Liberalism in today's politics.

Come to think of it, this hasn't changed much since Liberalism was opposing Reagan. :)

Federal Receipt and Outlay Summary | Tax Policy Center

It's interesting to note the FACT that when the Bush Tax Cuts were set to expire, they were renewed and then made permanent under Obama. You remember Obama: The wold's most intelligent man.

He was also a supporter of tax cuts if actions really DO speak louder than words.
 
Rogue Valley said:
The Koch Brothers Have a Plan to Make the Tax Bill Popular



Unsurprisingly, the billionaire Koch Brothers and their Koch Industries are among the biggest winners in the GOP tax giveaway to the ultra-wealthy and corporations.

This is a major GOP donor family that told the GOP leadership to pass the tax legislation or the Koch family would cease their contributions to GOP election campaigns.

Related: Sanders: Passage of GOP tax bill a 'victory' for Koch brothers, campaign donors, corporations
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As long as the american public remains inside their homes bowed, cowed and intimidated by concentrated corporate state wealth and power, they can look forward to more wealth extraction and redistribution; no one from the aristocracy is coming to save you.
 
MrPeanut said:
Distributional Analysis of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act as Passed by the Senate | Full Report | Tax Policy Center

Some taxpayers would pay more in taxes under the proposal in 2019 and 2025than under current law—about 7 percent of taxpayers in 2019 and 10 percent in 2025. In 2027, however, taxes would increase for 48 percent of taxpayers compared with current law.

This isn't factoring in the removal of the individual mandate, and the increases in healthcare prices that are tied to that. The analysis from the Tax Policy Center is about as much as a softball as you can get, and it still shows a tax increase for about half of all taxpayers in 2027.

The problem here is that Republicans are basically saying it isn't accurate because of course sometime in the future they will correct the issue. I don't trust them to do that. The repeal of the individual mandate is an example of letting philosophy clash with reality. It will increase healthcare costs. We just have to wait and see by how much. Yes, "freedom" and "bald eagles" are a great talking point, but how free is someone that can't afford to go to the doctor? I'd argue that the real costs of this bill are more in line with the JCT estimates, but I won't use them as a reference because I don't believe in loosely estimating things.
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So after the tax cuts expire and the current Byzantine system is reinstated the taxes will go back up?

Seems like a pretty good argument to get at least a temporary respite from the current draconian tax laws that come back into effect in 2027.
 
haymarket said:
These two jerks are in the TOP TEN PUBLIC ENEMIES list.
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You commies need to screw them, don't ever buy their products, or buy anything either made or transported with their products.

The Koch's operate the safest, cleanest, refineries in the nation and give more to charity than all of the Democrat-Socialist-Communists pigs in Washington DC combined.

Their crime: unapologetic boosters of the freedom that has made the USA both the moral authority and the envy of the world; who is dying to get into all these socialists paradises anyway?
 
GOOD NEWS COMMUNISTS

Cuba and Venezuela both need more workers and everybody is equal there.

Its a "workers" paradise I hear.
 
SirGareth said:
You commies need to screw them, don't ever buy their products, or buy anything either made or transported with their products.

The Koch's operate the safest, cleanest, refineries in the nation and give more to charity than all of the Democrat-Socialist-Communists pigs in Washington DC combined.

Their crime: unapologetic boosters of the freedom that has made the USA both the moral authority and the envy of the world; who is dying to get into all these socialists paradises anyway?
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I have proposed this to the comrades who attend with me the weekly cell meeting of the Leon Trotsky & August Spies Marching and Drinking Society Southeast Michigan Chapter. In fact, I have also proposed that our local Trotsky officials be authorized to routinely inspect the homes of members to see if they have any Koch Brothers industry products on their shelves - but I hear libertarian grumblings about "rights and liberties". But I will keep on trying.
 
Parrish said:
The Koch's are working from the bottom up, focusing on state and local elections and funding schools of government, politics, law, economics, and more, to further their own politics in state universities and colleges.
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Pretty much. Dave Brat is one of their pet projects. They own departments at George Mason University, Florida State and others.
 
Judging from the comments below this opinion piece, they have work to do.
https://nypost.com/2017/12/27/this-is-why-readers-arent-happy-about-the-tax-cut/
Sample:
John: While you may wonder why most Americans are against the tax plan it’s because — regardless of the crumbs given to those who work for a living — the top 1 percent literally stole money from the middle and lower classes.

Maybe it won’t show in the paycheck but it will result in more money required to service the debt that will grow over the next 10 years. In addition, the swat at affordable healthcare will increase the costs of insurance for many and it is estimated that 13 million Americans will forgo insurance due to cost.

This will result in more uncovered individuals at the emergency rooms that the public pays for anyway.

There is a sunset clause in the tax plan, so the wealthy and privileged get their tax relief forever but for the working man the tax relief is a chimera and will end over time.

In addition the Republicans will now say that due to the shortfall in revenues they will want to cut Medicare and Social Security. Are you still wondering why the public is opposed to the Republicans and their donors getting their noses into the public trough? Joel Walfish.
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code1211 said:
So after the tax cuts expire and the current Byzantine system is reinstated the taxes will go back up?

Seems like a pretty good argument to get at least a temporary respite from the current draconian tax laws that come back into effect in 2027.
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There are a number of different deductions that are removed under the new system. When the cuts expire those deductions are still removed which effectively raises taxes on 48 percent of taxpayers.
 
MrPeanut said:
There are a number of different deductions that are removed under the new system. When the cuts expire those deductions are still removed which effectively raises taxes on 48 percent of taxpayers.
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Wait a minute aren't "deductions" called "subsidies" by the socialists.

Why should we be "subsidizing" taxpayers?
 
SirGareth said:
Wait a minute aren't "deductions" called "subsidies" by the socialists.

Why should we be "subsidizing" taxpayers?
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It amounts to a tax cut. Judging by your lean I assume you are pro tax cut.
 
MrPeanut said:
It amounts to a tax cut. Judging by your lean I assume you are pro tax cut.
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My tax theory is rather simple:

All income from economic activity is equally taxed whether it be from labor, interest, dividends, or capital gains.

There are no personal deductions for anything.

Gifts are neither taxable nor deductible to either the giver or receiver regardless of who they are, however the selling of a gift (shares, business, real estate etc) is economic activity and therefore a taxable event. If the sale was from a previously received gift (including inheritance) then the cost basis is always Zero, and all income gleaned from the sale is subjected to full capital gains taxation.
 
SirGareth said:
Your rebuttal is as fulsome as what we expect of you
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Really, SirGareth, you, of all people, ought not to be pointing fingers.
 
Gaea said:
Actually, your state is leeching off mine:

RXD2dafRQ_Og38JbDfjbTA.png


Maybe if your state charged more state taxes, and provided better programs for people, you wouldn't have 16% of your state's population on food stamps:

GHAgLV_4RAmAFz1hmsa2bQ.png
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California leads the nation — in poverty
One in five Californians live in poverty, according to a new U.S. Census Bureau report.

Using the Supplemental Poverty Measure, which accounts for regional cost-of-living, the average poverty rate in California from 2014 through 2016 stood at 20.4 percent, the highest among the states and second only to the District of Columbia’s 21 percent average. The national average over that period of time was 14.7 percent.

Despite boasting one of the largest economies in the world, California has consistently topped national rankings of poverty. While the state only accounts for about 12 percent of the national population, for example, Californians comprise one-third of Temporary Assistance for Needy Families beneficiaries.

https://www.ocregister.com/2017/09/25/california-leads-the-nation-in-poverty/

A few years ago:

Is California the welfare capital?

34%

Of the nation’s welfare recipients live in California but only …

12%

… of the U.S. population resides here.

California by far spends more than any other state on welfare. But broken down on a per-capita basis, the story is a little different.

That overall figure amounts to $179 annually for every man, woman and child in California. That trails New York ($256) and Hawaii ($233). Two large states among the lowest in per capita spending are Texas ($32) and Florida ($44). The national average is $99.

The figures for the states do not include other support, such as food stamps, known as CalFresh in California, or Medicaid, known as Medi-Cal in California.

Is California the welfare capital? - The San Diego Union-Tribune
 
Blkdirt Farmer said:
Not when it comes to Soros.

As far as I am concerned, Soros effectively owns the left here, in Canada and all of Europe.

I consider him a threat to our national security, as I do the Democratic party who takes him money.

I can not tell you how low you Democrats are for this man. Your party would do much better if you would refuse his money.

But of course that will not happen.
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But the Koch Bros and their nearly billion dollars to the Republicans makes them the honest party?
 
RetiredUSN said:
And? Soros spends millions. He owns democrats?
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Soros outspend the Koch boys multiple times over. He uses shell organizations to hide most of it. This lets him skate right past the stupid left wing media, and left wing "fact" checkers.. But of course they are not that stupid, they let him hide his money and shell organizations so the public will not know of this fact... Soros is a major player in Europe and Canada, and the left wing in those countries. He is for one world Government, much more easy for the Global elite to control and extort from... How the Democrats here can justify the taking the huge sums he donates directly and indirectly is beyond reason. It is in fact one of the biggest reasons we the American people, must repel the Democrats who want to sell our nation out to the globalist Soros who would love to destroy our independence from his world order dreams..

It is really hard not to hate Democrats when you realize with who and what they are doing....
 
Rogue Valley said:
The Koch Brothers Have a Plan to Make the Tax Bill Popular



Unsurprisingly, the billionaire Koch Brothers and their Koch Industries are among the biggest winners in the GOP tax giveaway to the ultra-wealthy and corporations.

This is a major GOP donor family that told the GOP leadership to pass the tax legislation or the Koch family would cease their contributions to GOP election campaigns.

Related: Sanders: Passage of GOP tax bill a 'victory' for Koch brothers, campaign donors, corporations
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Thomas Jefferson warned about this:

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/end-democracyspurious-quotation
"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."
 
Blkdirt Farmer said:
Soros outspend the Koch boys multiple times over. He uses shell organizations to hide most of it. This lets him skate right past the stupid left wing media, and left wing "fact" checkers.. But of course they are not that stupid, they let him hide his money and shell organizations so the public will not know of this fact... Soros is a major player in Europe and Canada, and the left wing in those countries. He is for one world Government, much more easy for the Global elite to control and extort from... How the Democrats here can justify the taking the huge sums he donates directly and indirectly is beyond reason. It is in fact one of the biggest reasons we the American people, must repel the Democrats who want to sell our nation out to the globalist Soros who would love to destroy our independence from his world order dreams..

It is really hard not to hate Democrats when you realize with who and what they are doing....
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I won't go as far as hating them...........errr most of them.
 
SirGareth said:
Wait a minute aren't "deductions" called "subsidies" by the socialists.

Why should we be "subsidizing" taxpayers?
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Generally subsidies are used to promote certain behaviors.

SALT deduction exists to promote state's rights (encourages states to implement their own programs rather than relying on the federal government for everything)
Student loan interest deduction exists to encourage people to go to college, even if they didn't grow up in a rich family
Child tax credit (not technically a deduction) exists to encourage people to reproduce (which is good for the economy in the long term)
Mortgage interest deduction exists to promote home-buying (how effective this is, is debatable. I suspect this disproportionately benefits people who don't need the benefit)
 
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