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Thread: The final GOP tax bill is complete. Here’s what is in it.

  1. #21
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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    One massive overarching problem though:

    In 2024 all the individual rate reductions go away. Corporate reductions stay.

    How is this possibly good?
    That, and funny math were required to make the numbers seem to add up.
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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by <alt>doxygen View Post
    The gall of this bunch is astonishing. I'm lucky to be living in a state where they don't tax my income. I hope the dems take over and reverse most of this idiotic bill. It's needlessly cruel, but at least Trump and the GOP are doing it out in front of everyone's face.
    I live in a highly taxed state. While I'm not thrilled with taxes, for the most part I accept it because I have a pretty high quality of life, with excellent services and great schools, though that's more a function of my local governance than the state's.

    But looking on the surface, I'm going to get killed by tax deduction limit. There better be something else in there for me, to make up for my loss.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    Because it sets the table for the next presidential election in 2024 assuming it's Trumps last term. If not, it's a mid term for someone else.

    So you get to vote on whether you like your new lot in life or you don't.
    Interesting concept there, that I hadn't thought of.

    Well, I still disagree with this tax plan and raising the debt and deficit. Nor do I see this as a shot at "trying something", because we've seen it fail repeatedly in the past (to try something new, would have been to tax the wealthy & corps, and cut the middle-class).

    But you have presented a novel way to look at this.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    The GOP doesn't really hate taxes. They love to raise sales taxes, consumption taxes, property taxes, and payroll taxes. You know, taxes that effect lower and middle class people.

    Income taxes? Corporate taxes? Capital gains? Estate taxes? Now, those are the evil taxes!


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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by Multnomah Pope View Post
    The Socialist reply: "It's cruel". Is that all you have?
    Just wait. The power structure knows full well it has lost all semblance of legitimacy. That is why it no longer has any compunction about murdering unarmed citizens in the streets. That is why it militarized police depts; it knows full well that at some point, the fweedumb loving befuddled masses will see this society for what it is and does to all sans the aristocracy. That is why you have corporate for profit prisons with convict labor leasing which is a return to profiteering from bondage in a technological age where the substantial people no longer require the people to generate their beloved profit margins; they can turn $40-50K per year, per hominid, and have the public pay for their workforce. That is why concentrated corporate wealth and power has taken over your governance, media machine, and now the internet. You sir are the subject of an empire with no voice or meaningful representation in your own existence, assuming you are not some lobbyist wielding think tank legislation corporate state raconteur.

    As it turns out, labels is all the power structure has, once the people figure that out and gather together, this house of cards will collapse; and no one understands that better than the power structure itself. Authority is by definition always on shaky ground, and that all ours is, just another authoritarian system attempting to keep the masses in their place, same as it ever was.

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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    One massive overarching problem though:

    In 2024 all the individual rate reductions go away. Corporate reductions stay.

    How is this possibly good?
    I thought the chart in the link showed all taxes were permanent. Am I reading that incorrectly?

    Okay, I ran the curser over the final bill and I now see that individual tax cuts are not permanent. Saying all tax cuts were permanent was a tad misleading. I should have known due to the source.
    Last edited by LesGovt; 12-16-17 at 01:47 PM.

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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Interesting concept there, that I hadn't thought of.

    Well, I still disagree with this tax plan and raising the debt and deficit. Nor do I see this as a shot at "trying something", because we've seen it fail repeatedly in the past (to try something new, would have been to tax the wealthy & corps, and cut the middle-class).

    But you have presented a novel way to look at this.
    The thing about "the wealthy and the corps" is they are where the jobs are, and where the money is, and where the taxes come from. They should not be spoken of as a pejorative. They are the engines of our daily lives, and their distributed wealth (in the form of stocks), is what makes the majority of citizen's retirements bearable.

    The middle class earns their wealth from wages, which is expected to go up.
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence everywhere but here
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  8. #28
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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/15/gop-...ats-in-it.html

    I hate to be a jerk, but you really have to read the article, follow the links, and apply them to your personal situation. There is a whole lot of misinformation out there. The vote I understand is Tuesday. Merry Christmas!

    The democrat argument is this:



    The republican argument is basically:

    "If you believe the economy won't grow due to the tax plan then the deficit numbers from the Join Committee on Taxation will prevail." It's that simple.

    So your job as a responsible person is to cut away from the bull**** you are seeing from the media, get out a calculator, last years tax returns, and work it out. (or ballpark your '16 earnings) You can't ignore the two competing forces: Democrats out of power, and Republicans in. Republicans are writing the plan in the plain daylight the way things of this magnitude are supposed to be done.

    If the plans fails and the economy flops, then fine. The Republicans failed, Democrats can cheer, but historically, betting against tax cuts has been a losing bet.

    Note: There will be a quiz on Monday...
    First, 2% growth is what the Fed targets. As opposed to what conservatives state, 2% growth is good. It is sustained growth with little or no inflation. The growth that Trump talks about, 4%, 5%, and 6%, all are overheating economic wishes that will be inflationary and then lead to recession. They are also not achievable with the number of workers retiring.

    Now, will these tax-cuts produce growth? From what I read from economists, growth from these tax-cuts is less than .5% over ten years.

    The purpose of these cuts is to give money to the wealthy -- who happen to be GOP donors. Since the cuts have to be kept below a certain cost, in order to cut-out participation by Democrats, they necessitated crazy economic projections and raising taxes on the middle-class.

    The Reagan and Bush tax cuts were tilted towards the rich. These tax-cuts bend over backwards for the rich.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

  9. #29
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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    I live in a highly taxed state. While I'm not thrilled with taxes, for the most part I accept it because I have a pretty high quality of life, with excellent services and great schools, though that's more a function of my local governance than the state's.

    But looking on the surface, I'm going to get killed by tax deduction limit. There better be something else in there for me, to make up for my loss.
    Your loss is the gain for someone else - that is how the tax game is played. The bottom line is that federal spending exceeds federal taxation and neither the party for a bigger federal government nor the party for a huge federal government is willing to change that.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #30
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    Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    The thing about "the wealthy and the corps" is they are where the jobs are, and where the money is, and where the taxes come from. They should not be spoken of as a pejorative. They are the engines of our daily lives, and their distributed wealth (in the form of stocks), is what makes the majority of citizen's retirements bearable.

    The middle class earns their wealth from wages, which is expected to go up.
    Is the big problem in this country that rich people and corporations, who are sitting on trillions in savings, not have enough money?
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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