The final GOP tax bill is complete. Here’s what is in it.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Chomsky said:

One massive overarching problem though:

In 2024 all the individual rate reductions go away. Corporate reductions stay.

How is this possibly good?

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I thought the chart in the link showed all taxes were permanent. Am I reading that incorrectly?

Okay, I ran the curser over the final bill and I now see that individual tax cuts are not permanent. Saying all tax cuts were permanent was a tad misleading. I should have known due to the source.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Chomsky said:

Interesting concept there, that I hadn't thought of.

Well, I still disagree with this tax plan and raising the debt and deficit. Nor do I see this as a shot at "trying something", because we've seen it fail repeatedly in the past (to try something new, would have been to tax the wealthy & corps, and cut the middle-class).

But you have presented a novel way to look at this.

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The thing about "the wealthy and the corps" is they are where the jobs are, and where the money is, and where the taxes come from. They should not be spoken of as a pejorative. They are the engines of our daily lives, and their distributed wealth (in the form of stocks), is what makes the majority of citizen's retirements bearable.

The middle class earns their wealth from wages, which is expected to go up.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

chuckiechan said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/15/gop-releases-its-final-tax-plan--heres-whats-in-it.html

I hate to be a jerk, but you really have to read the article, follow the links, and apply them to your personal situation. There is a whole lot of misinformation out there. The vote I understand is Tuesday. Merry Christmas!

The democrat argument is this:



The republican argument is basically:

"If you believe the economy won't grow due to the tax plan then the deficit numbers from the Join Committee on Taxation will prevail." It's that simple.

So your job as a responsible person is to cut away from the bull**** you are seeing from the media, get out a calculator, last years tax returns, and work it out. (or ballpark your '16 earnings) You can't ignore the two competing forces: Democrats out of power, and Republicans in. Republicans are writing the plan in the plain daylight the way things of this magnitude are supposed to be done.

If the plans fails and the economy flops, then fine. The Republicans failed, Democrats can cheer, but historically, betting against tax cuts has been a losing bet.

Note: There will be a quiz on Monday...

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First, 2% growth is what the Fed targets. As opposed to what conservatives state, 2% growth is good. It is sustained growth with little or no inflation. The growth that Trump talks about, 4%, 5%, and 6%, all are overheating economic wishes that will be inflationary and then lead to recession. They are also not achievable with the number of workers retiring.

Now, will these tax-cuts produce growth? From what I read from economists, growth from these tax-cuts is less than .5% over ten years.

The purpose of these cuts is to give money to the wealthy -- who happen to be GOP donors. Since the cuts have to be kept below a certain cost, in order to cut-out participation by Democrats, they necessitated crazy economic projections and raising taxes on the middle-class.

The Reagan and Bush tax cuts were tilted towards the rich. These tax-cuts bend over backwards for the rich.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Chomsky said:

I live in a highly taxed state. While I'm not thrilled with taxes, for the most part I accept it because I have a pretty high quality of life, with excellent services and great schools, though that's more a function of my local governance than the state's.

But looking on the surface, I'm going to get killed by tax deduction limit. There better be something else in there for me, to make up for my loss.

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Your loss is the gain for someone else - that is how the tax game is played. The bottom line is that federal spending exceeds federal taxation and neither the party for a bigger federal government nor the party for a huge federal government is willing to change that.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

chuckiechan said:

The thing about "the wealthy and the corps" is they are where the jobs are, and where the money is, and where the taxes come from. They should not be spoken of as a pejorative. They are the engines of our daily lives, and their distributed wealth (in the form of stocks), is what makes the majority of citizen's retirements bearable.

The middle class earns their wealth from wages, which is expected to go up.

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Is the big problem in this country that rich people and corporations, who are sitting on trillions in savings, not have enough money?

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

chuckiechan said:

The thing about "the wealthy and the corps" is they are where the jobs are, and where the money is, and where the taxes come from. They should not be spoken of as a pejorative. They are the engines of our daily lives, and their distributed wealth (in the form of stocks), is what makes the majority of citizen's retirements bearable.

The middle class earns their wealth from wages, which is expected to go up.

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No, corps should not necessarily be spoken of pejoratively in general terms, though there's plenty of examples of corporate abuse that can specifically be called-out.

But the problem here, is that corporate interests have such inordinate power over government in relation to the everyday man. They have interests that sometimes conflict with citizen's interests, and they have the congress' ear to get their way in those instances. This tax bill seems to be one example.

Your wealth-through-stocks argument is fine, though.

But I strongly disagree with your last statement concerning wages. Why are wages expected to go up? They haven't gone up (vs inflation) since Reagan started this crap in 1981, and through Bush's tax cuts in '01. What makes this time different, from the last 3+ decades?

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Multnomah Pope said:

Let's try it. Look at Obama failed economy.

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I liked the last 88% of "the failed Obama economy". 90-some months of continuous growth, and counting.

Never got 3% GDP ...

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And after the first year (thanks, Bush) ... Never got below zero either. #shrug

and millions of lost jobs.

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No matter where you start counting, there were millions more jobs at the end of Obama's tenure than there were at the beginning, and additional millions if you count from the trough of employment that was left to us by the previous administration.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

chuckiechan said:

They will be renegotiated.

Obviously, we can't keep plopping along at 2% growth. That is a non starter.

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Why not? Inflation is at roughly 2%. Population growth is at less than 1%. I'd argue strongly that indiscriminate growth is the 100% wrong target. We've had this target for decades and its resulted in the acceptance of policies that have contributed to our first world leading inequality. This bill, while I won't whine about getting a few extra grand in taxes, is mortgaging our future for inefficient goals that'll only promote inequality and balloon debt, all while not touching the entitlement taxing or spending during the period that it needs to be touched, the retirement period for baby boomers. Who cares if we have 4% growth if 80% of that growth goes to the wealthy who weren't struggling to begin with? Also, the assumption that this bill is going to be a strong boost to the economy is highly suspect anyway. If we don't get to 3.5-4% growth from it, we've put outselves in a position where we CAN'T do other options in the future due to our massive debt levels. I say lower corporate rate to 28% but cap deductions so we are competitive with other developed countries, leave the AMT for corporations, leave pass through business tax rate at income levels, change capital gains to income tax rate, lower over all income tax rate, but cap deductions for high income earners with the AMT, and raise the earned and income tax credit significantly and make it refundable. This would increase aggregate demand without ballooning debt if you get the numbers right and still make us more competitive for businesses. I'd also favor a VAT tax if combined with lower business and income taxes and a refund for low income earners.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Critter7r said:

I liked the last 88% of "the failed Obama economy". 90-some months of continuous growth, and counting.



And after the first year (thanks, Bush) ... Never got below zero either. #shrug



No matter where you start counting, there were millions more jobs at the end of Obama's tenure than there were at the beginning, and additional millions if you count from the trough of employment that was left to us by the previous administration.

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and there were periods of 3%+ growth.

Anagram said:

Don't like that at all. From what I've seen there's nothing in this to control premiums. And 13 million mostly healthy people off insurance is going to cause them to rise absent some other measures. That combined with the cost sharing payments ending will not be good.

You just can't keep all the "popular" measures in the ACA and only nix the unpopular mandate.

If they want to pass Alexander-Murray and relax some of the regulations and restore the payments that's one thing, but I think this is a poor half-measure.

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Yeah, there's something to say about Obamacare that it's so awesome, it breaks down as soon as it loses it's ability to coerce people into joining up.

That being said, as a pure governance issue, the idea that the State should be able to force us to purchase a private product or service from approved vendors grates on me like barbed wire dragged across a sunburn. I'll be more than glad to see it go.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Critter7r said:

I liked the last 88% of "the failed Obama economy". 90-some months of continuous growth, and counting.



And after the first year (thanks, Bush) ... Never got below zero either. #shrug



No matter where you start counting, there were millions more jobs at the end of Obama's tenure than there were at the beginning, and additional millions if you count from the trough of employment that was left to us by the previous administration.

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I do not know how this myth of "Obama's failed economy" continues to persist, but I do think there is something to the argument that he made some serious misteps that held the economy back from a faster and more robust recovery, namely pursuing health care reform before a stimulus bill. I think he would have had an extremely different presidency if he had done a stimulus bill in those first 2 years and waited on healthcare reform. Obamacare is not the boogie man people make it out to be but its also not a magic fix to our healthcare system that was worth losing the house and senate and any chance of democrats controlling the stimulus and recovery efforts over. Its expensive and not a terribly efficient use of dollars in a time when we could have been using those dollars to put people back to work.

Exquisitor said:

They'll do worse, because all the Money will be going to the pool from whence it never goes except to bring back more Money, and how will people have money to spend at your business?

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They'll do better, because they will have less of a tax burden, and demand is hardly likely to collapse due to a tax cut. Don't hate the fact that the burden's of others are being relieved to the point where you begin to spit hyperbolic inanity.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Since I'm looking at 1100 pages of changes I can't really do justice to an opinion but it looks like we'll be seeing minor changes instead of major ones. The stuff that stuck out was putting the floor for medical deductions back to 7.5% for people over 65 (which means that medical deductions will still be allowed) and elimination of the deduction for miscellaneous unreimbursed business expenses (this deduction was a fraud factory anyway). It looks like the deduction for alimony is going away as is the need to claim alimony received as income. Divorces are likely to look a lot different in the future.

Estate tax exclusion doubles. Individual AMT limits increased...both good.

Sec 179 deduction increased to $1M AND extended to certain real property. NICE!

Cash method allowed for businesses under $25M gross receipts. Good!

168(k) bumped back to 100% but phased down to 20% over 5 years. Short term good, long term not as good as it was.

Changes to qualified LHI/Restaurant/Retail property rules. Didn't have time to check it out in depth.

Significant changes to deducting interest as a business expense. Not sure why this was an issue but it's going to require more reading. Looks like disallowed interest expense in a partnership will be passed through to partners.

Looks like there will be limits on NOL deductions. Big change is no carryback. Must be carried forward up to indefinitely. Still have a carryback for farming losses.

1031 limited to real property

Deduction for Meals and Entertainment now just Meals. 100% meals for convenience of owner GONE!!!

DPAD gone.

Here's one folks will like. Taking an expense for sexual harassment claims subject to an NDA no longer allowed.

Carried Interest rules are changing. Haven't read through the section yet.


ugh...that's just the first 230 pages or so - http://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20171218/CRPT-115HRPT-466.pdf

CriticalThought said:

Nope. They are kicking it down the road to 2019.

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Kicking the Can has worked great thus far for the entitlements, and hey, in the long road, we're all dead anyway, right?

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

vash1012 said:

I do not know how this myth of "Obama's failed economy" continues to persist, but I do think there is something to the argument that he made some serious misteps that held the economy back from a faster and more robust recovery, namely pursuing health care reform before a stimulus bill. I think he would have had an extremely different presidency if he had done a stimulus bill in those first 2 years and waited on healthcare reform. Obamacare is not the boogie man people make it out to be but its also not a magic fix to our healthcare system that was worth losing the house and senate and any chance of democrats controlling the stimulus and recovery efforts over. Its expensive and not a terribly efficient use of dollars in a time when we could have been using those dollars to put people back to work.

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The stimulus bill was passed in the early months of 2009 and continued for two years. Obamacare is responsible for lowering income inequality by raising taxes on the wealthy and that's the main reason the GOP hates it.

cpwill said:

Yeah, there's something to say about Obamacare that it's so awesome, it breaks down as soon as it loses it's ability to coerce people into joining up.

That being said, as a pure governance issue, the idea that the State should be able to force us to purchase a private product or service from approved vendors grates on me like barbed wire dragged across a sunburn. I'll be more than glad to see it go.

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I agree with you as far as being against the mandate. But I just don't like getting rid of it this way. It's going to cause significant problems with the rest of the ACA remaining in effect.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

vash1012 said:

I do not know how this myth of "Obama's failed economy" continues to persist, but I do think there is something to the argument that he made some serious misteps that held the economy back from a faster and more robust recovery, namely pursuing health care reform before a stimulus bill. I think he would have had an extremely different presidency if he had done a stimulus bill in those first 2 years and waited on healthcare reform. Obamacare is not the boogie man people make it out to be but its also not a magic fix to our healthcare system that was worth losing the house and senate and any chance of democrats controlling the stimulus and recovery efforts over. Its expensive and not a terribly efficient use of dollars in a time when we could have been using those dollars to put people back to work.

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I don't know either. It's as if Obama was driving in a snowstorm, and people are chastising him for only counter-steering far enough into the tail spin to keep the car going down the road sideways, instead of turning the wheel further and causing the rear end to whip back in the other direction and throwing us into the ditch. At least we stayed on the road. Bush was whipsawing the steering wheel back and forth slamming us into the curb at each side of the road.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

<alt>doxygen said:

The gall of this bunch is astonishing. I'm lucky to be living in a state where they don't tax my income. I hope the dems take over and reverse most of this idiotic bill. It's needlessly cruel, but at least Trump and the GOP are doing it out in front of everyone's face.

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It doesn't really take gall when you know you'll get away with it. They have nothing to lose. As was said before they'll brush away their own failures with "something something liberals" all the while still claiming to be the party of personal responsibility.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

Johnson said:

It doesn't really take gall when you know you'll get away with it. They have nothing to lose. As was said before they'll brush away their own failures with "something something liberals" all the while still claiming to be the party of personal responsibility.

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I'm not saying it's anything but a more aggressive version of Republican/right-wing SOP, just that they usually try to mask it a little. Maybe it doesn't take gall because many of their supporters don't care if they get hurt or not, as long as they feel some librul somewhere is suffering. I find the whole thing bizarre.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

MTAtech said:

The stimulus bill was passed in the early months of 2009 and continued for two years. Obamacare is responsible for lowering income inequality by raising taxes on the wealthy and that's the main reason the GOP hates it.

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I don't disagree that obamacare sort of lowers income inequality because it is a transfer of wealth. I just disagree that it is the best way to go about that. More poor people gained access to healthcare insurance, but our healthcare system is extremely inefficient. You don't get much bang for your buck so to speak. I'm not at all convinced having healthcare insurance improves your health or reduces mortality. There really isn't much evidence for that. It does reduce your likelihood of suffering bankruptcy due to health care costs and that can't be discounted, but raising taxes on the wealthy and adding seriously large costs to full time employment for employers during a recession in order to provide those benefits is not necessarily a good idea. Not to mention, people were required to by expensive insurance that kept getting more expensive or face higher taxes themselves. My central thesis here is that if he'd have continued stimulus efforts after ARRA in 2009 instead of going after Obamacare we would have recovered faster and he wouldn't have lost both houses and still probably have done healthcare later.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

ttwtt78640 said:

Your loss is the gain for someone else - that is how the tax game is played. The bottom line is that federal spending exceeds federal taxation and neither the party for a bigger federal government nor the party for a huge federal government is willing to change that.

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I live in California. I have no debt and a good income. I pay my taxes with a smile. (But thevgovernment demands cash!)

Bottom line: at this point you don’t know anything.

cpwill said:

They'll do better, because they will have less of a tax burden, and demand is hardly likely to collapse due to a tax cut. Don't hate the fact that the burden's of others are being relieved to the point where you begin to spit hyperbolic inanity.

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Really I'd say, that these two factors compete negatively, and may maintain our present growth until some crash from the nature of what they are doing. (flooring it on an icy highway and unleashing so much selfishness and greed, you have to factor this in too, if you don't, you model is going to be way off).

Exquisitor said:

Really I'd say, that these two factors compete negatively, and may maintain our present growth until some crash from the nature of what they are doing. (flooring it on an icy highway and unleashing so much selfishness and greed, you have to factor this in too, if you don't, you model is going to be way off).

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I don't doubt that the stock market could be in for some correction (some already built in, especially coming from overseas, especially China), however, what you have said above in no way alters the fact that reducing the burden on business is not a harm to them, nor does doing so inherently reduce demand, which is, after all, a reflection of supply.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

chuckiechan said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/15/gop-releases-its-final-tax-plan--heres-whats-in-it.html

I hate to be a jerk, but you really have to read the article, follow the links, and apply them to your personal situation. There is a whole lot of misinformation out there. The vote I understand is Tuesday. Merry Christmas!

The democrat argument is this:



The republican argument is basically:

"If you believe the economy won't grow due to the tax plan then the deficit numbers from the Join Committee on Taxation will prevail." It's that simple.

So your job as a responsible person is to cut away from the bull**** you are seeing from the media, get out a calculator, last years tax returns, and work it out. (or ballpark your '16 earnings) You can't ignore the two competing forces: Democrats out of power, and Republicans in. Republicans are writing the plan in the plain daylight the way things of this magnitude are supposed to be done.

If the plans fails and the economy flops, then fine. The Republicans failed, Democrats can cheer, but historically, betting against tax cuts has been a losing bet.

Note: There will be a quiz on Monday...

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Historically it seems the bitter pill comes later. Usually enough later that people forget what caused it and then believe what those who caused it tell them is the reason.

Re: GOP releases its final tax plan — here's what's in it

MovingPictures said:

The GOP doesn't really hate taxes. They love to raise sales taxes, consumption taxes, property taxes, and payroll taxes. You know, taxes that effect lower and middle class people.

Income taxes? Corporate taxes? Capital gains? Estate taxes? Now, those are the evil taxes!

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Donor taxes in other words.