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Thread: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    When one is not properly informed it is hard for one to support it.
    The final bill hasn't even been submitted yet they are still working on it and their are changes coming to the bill.

    When the bill is lied about and the media can't be honest yea people are not going to like it.

    So far it appears the top rate will fall from 39.5 to 37.
    Mortgage deduction up to 750k.
    People will get to write off income and property taxes but it is capped at 10k I do believe.
    You can deduct medical expenses.


    The ATM is in place but for 500k ind. 1m for couples.

    Still waiting on the important details such as tax bracket standard deductions and the child tax credits.


    Corporate rate will be 21% instead of 20%.
    Yes the GOP leadership and budget wonks really wanted that magic 20% but compromised. So I suspect the final version will be something close to what you are describing here.

    I should have mentioned that about 15% of the public approved of Reagan's tax bill before it was voted on and put into effect. But that did change. He won 49 of the 50 states in the next election and almost got Mondale's Minnesota too. A hostile opposition and media can't fool folks into thinking things are terrible when they just aren't.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well while the OP I believe seriously distorts what the tax bill is and will do, I remember how unpopular the Reagan tax reform was as the Democrats were characterizing that in the same way back then. It had about 15% public approval. But, once it was ushered in, we enjoyed the longest period of sustained growth in a peacetime economy that this nation had ever seen.

    I am pretty sure the GOP in Congress know what they are doing and anticipate much the same kind of results. It always takes a few months for any tax reform to kick in with whatever affect it will have on the economy so we will see.
    Reagan didn’t try to ram tax reform through Congress without hearings or without any consultation with Democrats. It was bipartisan and revenue neutral.

    The current tax cuts are neither reform nor bipartisan. I don’t recall polls from 1986, but sort of remembering they had public approval.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Seriously?
    Yup. As a student of these kinds of tax packages over the decades, I'm pretty serious.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Yup. As a student of these kinds of tax packages over the decades, I'm pretty serious.
    And why didn't they put these up for debate and public discussion, etc., as MTAtech reminds you, they rammed this through.? It's such a great bill, we must hide it from the sunlight!!! HSSsssss, the light, it Buurrns!

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    They kicked and howled over the Reagan tax reforms but the end result is that everyone was better off.
    Median income rose 4K dollars. People from lower quintiles jumped two or three.

    Amazing what happens when more people have more money in their pockets. Not to mention the government brought in more money because of it.
    I don’t see what you see regarding median family income. The basic story of postwar America is one of big gains in the first generation, near-stagnation in the second and after, with fluctuation due to the business cycle. And Reagan did not break that pattern:


    Here is a different view. No Virginia, tax cuts don’t make miracles happen.

    Last edited by MTAtech; 12-13-17 at 09:22 PM.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    What planet are you on? Anyone can deficit spend to get a boost to the economy. BY definition that's a stimulus...
    They are claiming it won't raise the deficit though, is the issue. The have been telling us they ran the numbers and they look good, despite everyone else saying the numbers are terrible. We finally pushed and were told:

    Mnuchin has repeatedly pledged that more than 100 career staff members were "working around the clock on running scenarios" to show how the costs of the $1.5 trillion GOP proposal would be covered by economic growth. He even noted in September that an in-house analysis showed the bill would reduce the deficit by $1 trillion rather than increase it.
    When asked for it, he didn't actually have one. He's now under investigation for appearing to have lied about this.

    You know he was already under investigation for taking private jets right? Remember the one he took his wife on to watch the eclipse?

    With you as their supporter, I can assure you, they know what they are doing and it's pillaging for their own gain, with you cheering them on.
    The growth production of any kind of change in tax policy generally levels off after awhile and it is no guarantee that there won't be an inevitable recession from time to time. The leveling off point, however, is almost always going to be significantly higher than where it started. And there was still the longest sustained period of growth in the nation's history up to that point. After 8 years of declining incomes, unhealthy increase in the idle work force, President Trump's policies have regenerated consumer and business confidence, but we still really need a jump start of the economy to get us booming again.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well while the OP I believe seriously distorts what the tax bill is and will do, I remember how unpopular the Reagan tax reform was as the Democrats were characterizing that in the same way back then. It had about 15% public approval. But, once it was ushered in, we enjoyed the longest period of sustained growth in a peacetime economy that this nation had ever seen.

    I am pretty sure the GOP in Congress know what they are doing and anticipate much the same kind of results. It always takes a few months for any tax reform to kick in with whatever affect it will have on the economy so we will see.
    From what I am reading it is a home run. From the wealthiest to the least among us is going to see a tax break. The wealthiest get a 2% rate cut and a family of 4 that earns around 65,000 will see a $2000 savings. $2000 is a family vacation that couldn't be afforded prior or money to invest in their future that wasn't there before or affording braces for one of their children and on and on. And the Obamacare Mandate is being eliminated in this bill and that is a huge savings for the least among us who chose to pay the penalty for not having insurance they could not afford. Small businesses get a big break as do corporations that means nothing but trillions of dollars being kept offshore returning to the states and doing business in the states creating good paying jobs.

    They have the votes it is a done deal and in the coming months it is going to be hard for the naysayers to shoot it down when the people start to see their paychecks rise and when they make out their taxes for next year. It's a winner winner chicken dinner!

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    Reagan didn’t try to ram tax reform through Congress without hearings or without any consultation with Democrats. It was bipartisan and revenue neutral.

    The current tax cuts are neither reform nor bipartisan. I don’t recall polls from 1986, but sort of remembering they had public approval.
    There has been complete consultation with the Democrats and they could offer any amendments they wanted to offer. Partisanship wasn't a blood sport in the 1980's as it is now though it was the drubbing the Democrats took in the 1980's that I think was the beginning of the extreme partisan contentiousness that we have now. And the Tax Reform Act of 1986 is the one most people are using to compare with the current one. In fact it was Reagan's 1981 and 1983 efforts that were the first phases of the overall overhaul of the tax policy during the Reagan years. It was those that earned him overwhelming support in the 1984 election. The 1986 tax bill was in his second term.

    And no, Reagan had at most about 15% public approval rating for his proposed tax policy in his first term.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Well while the OP I believe seriously distorts what the tax bill is and will do, I remember how unpopular the Reagan tax reform was as the Democrats were characterizing that in the same way back then. It had about 15% public approval.
    The article in the OP discusses the Reagan cuts.
    It puts the approval at 51% rather than 15% for the first round.
    Your memory notwithstanding, the article may have a point.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: 538: The GOP Tax Cuts Are Even More Unpopular Than Past Tax Hikes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    And why didn't they put these up for debate and public discussion, etc., as MTAtech reminds you, they rammed this through.? It's such a great bill, we must hide it from the sunlight!!! HSSsssss, the light, it Buurrns!
    I've been listening to debates on it for days now. Both in the house and senate on CSpan and in the media. In the final vote no further amendments were allowed, but certainly there was no rule barring the Democrats full participation in the process. The fact that they pretty well 100% were in opposition and had no intention of trying to work together to put together a package all could live with is on them. Not the GOP. Not this time. Nobody was telling the Democrats as Obama told the GOP that they could come along but they had to sit in back.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?437165...-vote-expected

    https://www.npr.org/2017/11/30/56743...s-gop-tax-bill

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25HN1kZtRIw
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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