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Two Week Extention

Harshaw said:
That's not what he did. He put up barriers, he posted armed guards, he chased veterans off the WWII Memorial. No other President did anything like that in any previous shutdown. He wanted it to hurt. And he wanted the hurt to be blamed on Republicans.
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Right, that's what I just said - "if you want to build public pressure to end a stupid government "shut down" then the way to do it is to include staff that ARE visible, such as those running national parks, etc."

And Bush I shut down the parks and Smithsonian Museums as well, so the "no other President" stuff is wrong. And, yes, when there are no staff, national parks actually close. I live near the GSMNP and every time there is a threat of government shutdown, it hurts the local businesses that cater to visitors to the park, because it will be, yes, closed, road barriers erected, campsites closed, because there are no park staff on hand to handle the thousands of medical emergencies, lost hikers, vehicle break ins, wildlife encounters, etc. they handle with 10 million visitors per year.

I've always thought it was funny. People say, well, no one notices the shutdown......as long as the government keeps open the stuff WE WANT OPEN and that is highly visible to the public!!
 
Utility Man said:
Still waiting on the conservative outrage, about how the president is spending taxpayer money on golf instead of _______ .
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The President doesnt pass budgets. in fact IF the President were to engage it would be emblematic of the problem. In this particular case...the blame lies at the feet of the same people it has since 2006...Congress. Theres a reason why collectively they have an approval rating hovering right around 6-7%.
 
VanceMack said:
Because congress is inept.
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I don’t agree with most of your posts, but I am with you on this. There are going to be more vacancies in the near future......
 
JasperL said:
Right, that's what I just said - "if you want to build public pressure to end a stupid government "shut down" then the way to do it is to include staff that ARE visible, such as those running national parks, etc."

And Bush I shut down the parks and Smithsonian Museums as well, so the "no other President" stuff is wrong. And, yes, when there are no staff, national parks actually close. I live near the GSMNP and every time there is a threat of government shutdown, it hurts the local businesses that cater to visitors to the park, because it will be, yes, closed, road barriers erected, campsites closed, because there are no park staff on hand to handle the thousands of medical emergencies, lost hikers, vehicle break ins, wildlife encounters, etc. they handle with 10 million visitors per year.

I've always thought it was funny. People say, well, no one notices the shutdown......as long as the government keeps open the stuff WE WANT OPEN and that is highly visible to the public!!
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You've missed the point entirely.

You said they included "staff," i.e., "the people who run the parks." That's not what I said.

Other Presidents shut down the parks and memorials. No other president physically blocked them off, posted guards to prevent anyone from entering, and chased people away.

Obama shutdown, 2013:

a-park-police-officer-stands-guard-at-the-lincoln-memorial-which-is-closed-along-with-national.jpg


Clinton shutdown, 1995:

7233b94a-8060-4483-a0e5-d920fca9f05e.jpg
 
Harshaw said:
You've missed the point entirely.

You said they included "staff," i.e., "the people who run the parks." That's not what I said.

Other Presidents shut down the parks and memorials. No other president physically blocked them off, posted guards to prevent anyone from entering, and chased people away.

Obama shutdown, 2013:
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When Bush I closed the GSMNP, it was closed, blocked off, no one could enter the park roads. Same thing with Clinton.

As I said, what Republicans wanted was to shut down the "government" and use the leverage of a "government" shut down for negotiating purposes (to defund/end ACA), but then whined like stuck pigs when Obama didn't keep the parts of "government" they LIKED open. Boo hoo. The GOP chose hardball negotiating tactics and shutting the "government" down and so Obama did just that. What you were expecting Obama to do was partially assist the GOP tactic by making the shutdown as painless as possible to the public.
 
JasperL said:
When Bush I closed the GSMNP, it was closed, blocked off, no one could enter the park roads. Same thing with Clinton.
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Oh? Do you have documentation for that?

When a government shutdown closed the national parks in 1995, it was the first time every park had been simultaneously closed in the National Park Service's then-79-year history. Press reports from that time detail closures that were done haphazardly, because NPS officials didn't know how long the shutdown would last or what guidance to provide to people staying in the parks or running private businesses within them about when they might have to pack up. (This lack of guidance later became the subject of complaints at a congressional hearing.) In many cases, local officials used their discretion, leading to differences in how firmly parks were closed: Some were gated shut. Some merely saw ranger stations abandoned. Some campgrounds were shut down, others left open.
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https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-biggest-battleground-in-the-shutdown/280439/

As I said, what Republicans wanted was to shut down the "government" and use the leverage of a "government" shut down for negotiating purposes (to defund/end ACA), but then whined like stuck pigs when Obama didn't keep the parts of "government" they LIKED open. Boo hoo. The GOP chose hardball negotiating tactics and shutting the "government" down and so Obama did just that. What you were expecting Obama to do was partially assist the GOP tactic by making the shutdown as painless as possible to the public.
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Then you seem to be agreeing that Obama intentionally made it as painful as possible.
 
Harshaw said:
Oh? Do you have documentation for that?
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Nope, but that's what I remember living here at that time. But you originally claimed Obama's move was unprecedented and your own article details how national parks were all closed during that long shut down during the Clinton years. At any rate, the Bush I shutdown was just over the weekend, and so a complete shut down wasn't possible - lots of folks already in campgrounds and they need a day or two to get ousted, find new lodging, or get sent home by car. By then it was over.

Then you seem to be agreeing that Obama intentionally made it as painful as possible.
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Of course he did - which is what I've said from the first comment. If he made it as painless as possible - left open what the public likes and what is visible to them - then he's assisting the GOP's chosen, hard ball, negotiating strategy. That would be stupid. So he showed what an actual government shut down means - which is all those parks that require lots of government funding and staff to run ALSO GET SHUT DOWN.
 
Rexedgar said:
I don’t agree with most of your posts, but I am with you on this. There are going to be more vacancies in the near future......
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There should be a lot of them. Unfortunately, far too many of them will be sent back. And thats frnkly not on the congressmen...its on the people that put them there in the first place.
 
JasperL said:
Nope, but that's what I remember living here at that time. But you originally claimed Obama's move was unprecedented
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And it was. :shrug: Just because you remember some park being closed, it doesn't refute what I said.

and your own article details how national parks were all closed during that long shut down during the Clinton years.
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You really didn't bother to grasp the totality of what I said, did you?

Of course he did - which is what I've said from the first comment. If he made it as painless as possible - left open what the public likes and what is visible to them - then he's assisting the GOP's chosen, hard ball, negotiating strategy. That would be stupid. So he showed what an actual government shut down means - which is all those parks that require lots of government funding and staff to run ALSO GET SHUT DOWN.
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You're going to have to decide if what he did was routine, and every President does it, or if you agree with me that he made it as painful as possible as a political tactic.

The other Presidents didn't go out of their way to make it hurt. Obama did. That's the point.
 
Harshaw said:
And it was. :shrug: Just because you remember some park being closed, it doesn't refute what I said.

You really didn't bother to grasp the totality of what I said, did you?
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Don't really care whether the park was 82% or 94% closed. The national park was closed - your link confirms it during the Clinton shutdown. We're splitting hairs.

You're going to have to decide if what he did was routine, and every President does it, or if you agree with me that he made it as painful as possible as a political tactic.

The other Presidents didn't go out of their way to make it hurt. Obama did. That's the point.
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What other Presidents did was close the parks, closed the Smithsonian Museums, etc. Somehow you're convinced that Obama was super duper extra special bad about it, and 1) I don't really care, and 2) when the GOP decided to play hardball, and gain leverage in their pointless stunt by closing the "government" it sure as hell isn't Obama's job to make that shutdown THEY engineered work better for the idiots who forced the shutdown on the public. They wanted a "government" shut down and they got it!

Obama's like - "Please proceed Sen. Cruz and Tea Partiers...."

Bottom line is the shutdown was so a bunch of preening assholes like Cruz in the Senate and a bunch of Tea party morons could engage in a stunt that everyone knew had a 0.0000000% chance of working - using the House shutting down the government to convince the Democratic Senate and Obama to completely defund the ACA. It had to be the dumbest and most pointless "shut down" in history. So, yeah, Obama made it 'painful' (aka inconvenient for some tourists) because that's the way to get stupid legislative "terrorists" (that's what Boehner called them as I recall) to back down from their pointless, stupid, PR stunt that wasn't working out for them because everyone knew about that 0.0000000% chance of it working, and was furious with those assholes for forcing it for no damn reason. I know our local reps got an earful from businesses hurt by it and it's because even those who AGREED with them on ACA knew the shut down was just a PR stunt. A good friend, very conservative, ran a bunch of pancake houses in Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge. It killed his businesses during the busiest time of the year and he was livid with House republicans, who he voted for and otherwise supported!

What was hilarious about that whole mess is the morons apparently didn't know or care that their little shut down, to defund Obamacare, didn't and couldn't affect one penny of core spending for...Obamacare!
 
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JasperL said:
Don't really care whether the park was 82% or 94% closed. The national park was closed - your link confirms it during the Clinton shutdown. We're splitting hairs.



What other Presidents did was close the parks, closed the Smithsonian Museums, etc. Somehow you're convinced that Obama was super duper extra special bad about it, and 1) I don't really care, and 2) when the GOP decided to play hardball, and gain leverage in their pointless stunt by closing the "government" it sure as hell isn't Obama's job to make that shutdown THEY engineered work better for the idiots who forced the shutdown on the public. They wanted a "government" shut down and they got it!

Obama's like - "Please proceed Sen. Cruz and Tea Partiers...."

Bottom line is the shutdown was so a bunch of preening assholes like Cruz in the Senate and a bunch of Tea party morons could engage in a stunt that everyone knew had a 0.0000000% chance of working - using the House shutting down the government to convince the Democratic Senate and Obama to completely defund the ACA. It had to be the dumbest and most pointless "shut down" in history. So, yeah, Obama made it 'painful' (aka inconvenient for some tourists) because that's the way to get stupid legislative "terrorists" (that's what Boehner called them as I recall) to back down from their pointless, stupid, PR stunt that wasn't working out for them because everyone knew about that 0.0000000% chance of it working, and was furious with those assholes for forcing it for no damn reason. I know our local reps got an earful from businesses hurt by it and it's because even those who AGREED with them on ACA knew the shut down was just a PR stunt. A good friend, very conservative, ran a bunch of pancake houses in Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge. It killed his businesses during the busiest time of the year and he was livid with House republicans, who he voted for and otherwise supported!

What was hilarious about that whole mess is the morons apparently didn't know or care that their little shut down, to defund Obamacare, didn't and couldn't affect one penny of core spending for...Obamacare!
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All you did here was repeat yourself.
 
Harshaw said:
All you did here was repeat yourself.
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I'll repeat it again. I do not care. Every bit of "hurt" imposed on the public traces right back to that stupid band of preening assholes who decided a PR stunt of shutting down the "government" for no purpose but to preen for the cameras was a good idea.

And I have no idea what your point is anyway. Obama was super duper extra special bad because he made the government shut down engineered by idiots painful for the public, which is what the preening morons wanted? Think what you want. :shrug:
 
JasperL said:
I'll repeat it again. I do not care. Every bit of "hurt" imposed on the public traces right back to that stupid band of preening assholes who decided a PR stunt of shutting down the "government" for no purpose but to preen for the cameras was a good idea.

And I have no idea what your point is anyway. Obama was super duper extra special bad? Think what you want.
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First you were arguing that Obama didn't do anything unusual; now you're saying you're glad he did.

That's fine.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
If that is the case then have simply have them work. It is silly to pay someone not to work. In some jobs that I have had (construction and golf course maintenence) we got paid "show up" time of 2 hours on days which the weather prevented us from working but only if we showed up.
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Federal employees are covered by federal statutes. Last time they shut down the govt 80% of our people stayed at home. Management stayed at work and answered phones in case of a state or national emergency. We stayed at home and waited for a call to tell us to go back to work. They couldn't work us unless they could guarantee us payment, which they couldn't if the budget wasn't approved. If they worked us and couldn't pay us it would have been a violation of federal statute, which could have led to an overwhelming mess of Unfair Labor Practice Charges. It was a waste because we got paid anyway. The pay was authorized by executive order from the president.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I'm not saying that the job should not exist - I am saying that using a contractor to do that job would save money. If the law requires that public employees be paid not to work during government shutdowns (or at other times when no work for them exists) then using contractors would fix that nonsense.
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If there wasn't money to pay permanent employees then there wouldn't be any money to pay contractors.
 
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