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The new GOP tax plan was tried in Kansas. Surprise, it didn't work.

Yes. You know more than all the economists on the planet. :roll:

If you do not think that our economy isn't already largely based on trickle down, then you need to find another subject.

But then again, I seriously doubt that you have ran anything other than your own keyboard...............and certainly not a business.
 
Then you have the people that are too freaking stupid to realize that our economy is already largely trickle down.

It's not. The economy was mostly operating on trickle down principles, early in the industrial revolution. You had "robber barons"- factory owners who were making more than the GDP of entire nations. And they were hiring kids as young as 8 to work 80 hour weeks in their factories, with dangerous equipment and chemicals. They had no liability for their safety. The kids were not going to school or getting an education. And the kids still didn't have enough to eat. The argument was that given enough time, there would eventually be competition for this labor, and wages would rise, and the market would get rid of child labor and exploitation by itself. It didn't. The problem was only getting worse, not better. There was no trickle down. The massive disparities between the extremes of wealth and poverty were only getting worse, not better. The problem only went away with the introduction of some common sense laws and regulations like child labor laws, minimum wage laws, overtime, workplace safety laws, etc....

Trickle down theory does not work. That's a fact. Now it's just a useful propaganda tool used by the elite to exploit the ignorance of some voters to advance their own personal agendas on their backs.
 
If you do not think that our economy isn't already largely based on trickle down, then you need to find another subject.

But then again, I seriously doubt that you have ran anything other than your own keyboard...............and certainly not a business.

I have my own business. For 20 years now. I try to be as fair as I can. But that's just me. I know how business works.

Trickle down theory does not work in real life. Turn off Fox and read an economics textbook.

Trickle Down Economics: Theory, Effect, Does It Work
 
It's not. The economy was mostly operating on trickle down principles, early in the industrial revolution. You had "robber barons"- factory owners who were making more than the GDP of entire nations. And they were hiring kids as young as 8 to work 80 hour weeks in their factories, with dangerous equipment and chemicals. They had no liability for their safety. The kids were not going to school or getting an education. And the kids still didn't have enough to eat. The argument was that given enough time, there would eventually be competition for this labor, and wages would rise, and the market would get rid of child labor and exploitation by itself. It didn't. The problem was only getting worse, not better. There was no trickle down. The massive disparities between the extremes of wealth and poverty were only getting worse, not better. The problem only went away with the introduction of some common sense laws and regulations like child labor laws, minimum wage laws, overtime, workplace safety laws, etc....

Trickle down theory does not work. That's a fact. Now it's just a useful propaganda tool used by the elite to exploit the ignorance of some voters to advance their own personal agendas on their backs.

When the Ford plant closed in Norfolk, hundreds of businesses closed up.

When big auto left Detroit, thousands of small businesses closed up.

Trickle down isn't all about taxes.............just in case you are being a little slow on the uptake.
 
There are spirals of wealth, and spirals of poverty.

As an example: your daddy gives you the family business, a factory. It generates lots of money. So you employ some people to work there, and enjoy the money coming in. You put it in the stock market, make even more money. You buy some properties down in Florida, make even more money. So you save and make even more.

Their worker, on the other hand, is a single mom working hard to support her kids and pay the rent. She doesn't quite have enough to buy decent groceries. The kids don't get an education. She accrues debts to buy the kids some clothes. But the interest on the debt accrues. Now she has debts AND still doesn't have enough to eat.

And then the factory owner looks at her with contempt and wonders why she can't save money and be smart like him....

Does this sound fair?

Who ever said was life was fair?
You forgot the part where the person who started the business in the first place was once a worker with no money.He/she had to get financing from some source. Oh wait -it was that hoarded money that the wealthy hoarded away.

And remember, that single mom isn't in her predicament because that other guy is rich. ( likely she's working for a rich person- so her income trickles down from him. )So 'punishing ' him won't make her better off unless you are advocating a straight up money swap redistribution scheme.

Likely mom doesn't pay any taxes or very little so we can't help her there.Free education? Maybe. but there are already govt programs that deal with giving aid to low income people.
Free health care? that would help.
 
When the Ford plant closed in Norfolk, hundreds of businesses closed up.

When big auto left Detroit, thousands of small businesses closed up.

Trickle down isn't all about taxes.............just in case you are being a little slow on the uptake.

US corporations are sitting on record piles of cash, more than ever in their history. And yet wages have been stagnant for the middle class for the past 40 years. Where is the trickle down? How much more cash should they be having before anything trickles down?
 
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Who ever said was life was fair?

You are right: life is not fair. When everything is left free, in life you have the law of the jungle. Fairness and justice have no place in the jungle. The strong and privileged rule, and those who find themselves in a position of weakness and vulnerability get eaten for lunch. That's why humans created a system of civilization, law, order, and justice.

What's funny is that those in positions of privilege now in the US think they are there only because they are so smart and good looking. What they forget is that there are many factors that go into putting them so far in a contingent position of relative power and privilege. It would be wise for them to realize it doesn't take much for them to find themselves in a position of weakness and vulnerability, where they might be the ones which have to be looked out for.

Slump Eases, but Hope Dims Among White-Collar Jobless - NYTimes.com
 
If you do not think that our economy isn't already largely based on trickle down, then you need to find another subject.

But then again, I seriously doubt that you have ran anything other than your own keyboard...............and certainly not a business.

The problem is I have no idea what it means to have an economy 'based on trickle down.' I haven't seen direct evidence, but my guess is most businesses are not started when some rich guy with a few $100k in his pocket goes out and starts hiring. More likely, some ordinary person with an ordinary amount of money sees a need, comes up with a good idea, and starts a business. Along the way he or she needs capital, and the rich guy might supply it for his cut, but at that point the business is already there, and the idea is there, and it's the idea that is the hard part. So is that "trickle down" or bottom up? I'm not sure. A little of both I'd say.

And it's just a fact that advanced economies are where the wealth is created because we have large "middle" classes who buy stuff, lots of stuff. So policies that increase the "middle class" are good for business because it's them who create the demand, not a handful of wealthy elites surrounded by masses of working poor. That's why massive inequality is a BAD thing for an economy in general. Just as an obvious example, would you rather have one $billionaire in your town, or a thousand $millionaires? Or, how about 10,000 individuals with $100k in net worth, each.

I suppose it depends on the business, but I'd far rather have anything but the economy that produced one $billionaire - spreading out that wealth would be better for the economy, seems to me, and it wouldn't be close. I'm not talking about communism or dividing that $billion up and just handing it out - but an economy that produces those outcomes.
 
US corporations on sitting on record piles of cash, more than ever in their history. And yet wages have been stagnant for the middle class for the past 40 years. Where is the trickle down? How much more cash should they be having before anything trickles down?

Please stop with the BS.

The Stihl plant just awarded my son a 50K contract that I did the take off for a week ago.

The Company I work for was awarded the multi million dollar contract for ground improvement (site development) the new Ikea in Norfolk this year. Without that, there would be a 15-20 truckers and another 15-20 equipment operators and ground crewmwen sitting home.

Get my drift?
 
And remember, that single mom isn't in her predicament because that other guy is rich.

True. But history shows that the factory owner is only going to pay her enough to keep her barely alive to come back to work the next day. After that, his money is going to offshore accounts, no matter how much more he makes. That's just the facts of what has happened, and is happening now. Just look at the wages of the middle class for the last forty years, compared to the rising income of the top 1%. There is no trickle down.

income.jpg
 
Please stop with the BS.

The Stihl plant just awarded my son a 50K contract that I did the take off for a week ago.

The Company I work for was awarded the multi million dollar contract for ground improvement (site development) the new Ikea in Norfolk this year. Without that, there would be a 15-20 truckers and another 15-20 equipment operators and ground crewmwen sitting home.

Get my drift?

Their inflation-adjusted wages have not changed since 1980.

The owners? They are up 400%. 'Nuff said.
 
The problem is I have no idea what it means to have an economy 'based on trickle down.' I haven't seen direct evidence, but my guess is most businesses are not started when some rich guy with a few $100k in his pocket goes out and starts hiring. More likely, some ordinary person with an ordinary amount of money sees a need, comes up with a good idea, and starts a business. Along the way he or she needs capital, and the rich guy might supply it for his cut, but at that point the business is already there, and the idea is there, and it's the idea that is the hard part. So is that "trickle down" or bottom up? I'm not sure. A little of both I'd say.

And it's just a fact that advanced economies are where the wealth is created because we have large "middle" classes who buy stuff, lots of stuff. So policies that increase the "middle class" are good for business because it's them who create the demand, not a handful of wealthy elites surrounded by masses of working poor. That's why massive inequality is a BAD thing for an economy in general. Just as an obvious example, would you rather have one $billionaire in your town, or a thousand $millionaires? Or, how about 10,000 individuals with $100k in net worth, each.

I suppose it depends on the business, but I'd far rather have anything but the economy that produced one $billionaire - spreading out that wealth would be better for the economy, seems to me, and it wouldn't be close. I'm not talking about communism or dividing that $billion up and just handing it out - but an economy that produces those outcomes.

Every major player (business) in America that produces anything, all have "go to" mom & pop companies supporting them
 
Every major player (business) in America that produces anything, all have "go to" mom & pop companies supporting them

So why hasn't the wages for 99% of America changed in 40 years, when the economy has grown so dramatically in the same time period? Where is all this money going? Wherever it is, it sure isn't trickling down.

waiting_for_rain_2_by_kerem_keskin.jpg
 
If you do not think that our economy isn't already largely based on trickle down, then you need to find another subject.
As ataraxia points out: That isn't even remotely true.

"Trickle down" claims that slashing taxes on businesses and the wealthy benefits the entire nation. It's sheer nonsense.

If a company gets a tax break of, say, 10%, what is it going to do with the cash? Will the company spend on capital investments? Will it hire more employees? Will it give its employees raises? Will it spend more on R&D? No, no, no, no. Management will only do what it thinks is required to enhance profitability and/or share price. Credit is already insanely cheap, meaning few companies are genuinely unable to access capital for its own infrastructure. The pressure to cut costs does not evaporate because one of its expenses dropped slightly. Thus, we end up with debacles like Gary Cohen's WSJ meeting with a large group of CEOs:




On the individual level, what happens when the rich get a big tax break? Not much. They are already saving over half of their incomes, so all they're doing is saving it. At best, giving them a tax cut will result in a slight increase in the prices of assets where they stash their capital.

saving_scf.png


Now, we should note that there is really only one situation where cutting taxes on the wealthy does increase their spending (and tax revenues), which is when top tax rates are incredibly high -- as in, around 90%. (Literally, 90%.) This encourages those earners to dodge taxes, or just not pay them. However, we are nowhere near those kinds of tax levels, as the effective tax rate for the top 1% is around 22%. (This is less than most middle-class taxpayers, which are 25-30% iirc.)

The reality is that we live in a consumer economy. If you want to stimulate that economy, you need to cut taxes for the poor and middle class, because they will turn right around and spend it all. Since about 25% of those taxpayers will see higher tax rates, and the rest will receive a pittance, it's pretty clear that this tax cut does nothing more than make the rich richer. What a surprise.
 
Their inflation-adjusted wages have not changed since 1980.

The owners? They are up 400%. 'Nuff said.

You claim to run a business, which I seriously doubt, but anyways...................you would know what I have been talking about if you did.
 
When the Ford plant closed in Norfolk, hundreds of businesses closed up.

When big auto left Detroit, thousands of small businesses closed up.

Trickle down isn't all about taxes.............just in case you are being a little slow on the uptake.

Your example doesn't prove any point about "trickle down." What happened to the Ford plant? Why did it close? Was it because of lack of demand or because some other car company produces better cars? How many businesses remain? Are you suggesting Norfolk should funnel massive subsidies to keep that one business open? Would massive subsidies of 100 businesses work better? If Norfolk does better, does that necessarily mean the country or the economy as a whole does better or does keeping that one plant in Norfolk kill other jobs somewhere else? Etc....
 
As ataraxia points out: That isn't even remotely true.

"Trickle down" claims that slashing taxes on businesses and the wealthy benefits the entire nation. It's sheer nonsense.

If a company gets a tax break of, say, 10%, what is it going to do with the cash? Will the company spend on capital investments? Will it hire more employees? Will it give its employees raises? Will it spend more on R&D? No, no, no, no. Management will only do what it thinks is required to enhance profitability and/or share price. Credit is already insanely cheap, meaning few companies are genuinely unable to access capital for its own infrastructure. The pressure to cut costs does not evaporate because one of its expenses dropped slightly. Thus, we end up with debacles like Gary Cohen's WSJ meeting with a large group of CEOs:




On the individual level, what happens when the rich get a big tax break? Not much. They are already saving over half of their incomes, so all they're doing is saving it. At best, giving them a tax cut will result in a slight increase in the prices of assets where they stash their capital.

saving_scf.png


Now, we should note that there is really only one situation where cutting taxes on the wealthy does increase their spending (and tax revenues), which is when top tax rates are incredibly high -- as in, around 90%. (Literally, 90%.) This encourages those earners to dodge taxes, or just not pay them. However, we are nowhere near those kinds of tax levels, as the effective tax rate for the top 1% is around 22%. (This is less than most middle-class taxpayers, which are 25-30% iirc.)

The reality is that we live in a consumer economy. If you want to stimulate that economy, you need to cut taxes for the poor and middle class, because they will turn right around and spend it all. Since about 25% of those taxpayers will see higher tax rates, and the rest will receive a pittance, it's pretty clear that this tax cut does nothing more than make the rich richer. What a surprise.


Trickle down economics isn't just about tax rates...................got it?
 
Your example doesn't prove any point about "trickle down." What happened to the Ford plant? Why did it close? Was it because of lack of demand or because some other car company produces better cars? How many businesses remain? Are you suggesting Norfolk should funnel massive subsidies to keep that one business open? Would massive subsidies of 100 businesses work better? If Norfolk does better, does that necessarily mean the country or the economy as a whole does better or does keeping that one plant in Norfolk kill other jobs somewhere else? Etc....

Without investors...........I don't rehab houses.
 
Every major player (business) in America that produces anything, all have "go to" mom & pop companies supporting them

I have no idea what that means or how it's a response to what I wrote.

Bottom line is I don't think you can make a case that "trickle down" is the main driving force in a thriving economy. Just look around the world where you have massive concentrations of wealth in a few hands - Mexico is a good example. Would you rather start a business there or in America with it's thriving middle class producing demand for your products?

Obviously you need rich people and middle class and poor - it's not either rich OR the middle class OR the poor but a healthy mix. Or if you want to put it another way, the problem is the chicken or egg question. What came first? The fact is we need a good balance, and right now the balance is clearly tilted in a way that's not good for our overall economic health. That seems obvious. And funneling more wealth to the top isn't going to work, IMO at least.
 
Without investors...........I don't rehab houses.

And without buyers of the houses you have no investors. You have investors because there is demand for the rehabbed houses. Without demand, you can have 100 billionaires in Norfolk and they won't be investing a penny in your rehab projects.

But I'll quit here. I'm trying to have a debate and you're throwing out one-liners. :peace
 
I have no idea what that means or how it's a response to what I wrote.

Bottom line is I don't think you can make a case that "trickle down" is the main driving force in a thriving economy. Just look around the world where you have massive concentrations of wealth in a few hands - Mexico is a good example. Would you rather start a business there or in America with it's thriving middle class producing demand for your products?

Obviously you need rich people and middle class and poor - it's not either rich OR the middle class OR the poor but a healthy mix. Or if you want to put it another way, the problem is the chicken or egg question. What came first? The fact is we need a good balance, and right now the balance is clearly tilted in a way that's not good for our overall economic health. That seems obvious. And funneling more wealth to the top isn't going to work, IMO at least.

If you take ataraxia's point of view, corporations lock up their money and do not spend it. This is not true.

Corporations need software support, maintenance support, logistics support, lawyers, accountants, financial analyst advertising,.......plumbers etc. etc. etc.

Corporations have a trickle down affect in every single local economy, from Joe Blow's nuts and bolts........... to plumbers and grass cutters.
 
And without buyers of the houses you have no investors. You have investors because there is demand for the rehabbed houses. Without demand, you can have 100 billionaires in Norfolk and they won't be investing a penny in your rehab projects.

But I'll quit here. I'm trying to have a debate and you're throwing out one-liners. :peace

Pick a job where you can make a decent living.

Easy peasy!
 
If you take ataraxia's point of view, corporations lock up their money and do not spend it. This is not true.

Corporations need software support, maintenance support, logistics support, lawyers, accountants, financial analyst advertising,.......plumbers etc. etc. etc.

Corporations have a trickle down affect in every single local economy, from Joe Blow's nuts and bolts........... to plumbers and grass cutters.

But they're already spending as much as they need to spend to service the level of customers that they already have. If spending more money meant they would earn more money, then they WOULD ALREADY BE SPENDING THAT MONEY, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THAT MONEY AVAILABLE TO THEM ALREADY, they don't need more to effect an increase in their revenues.

Cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy is going to be for naught.
 
But they're already spending as much as they need to spend to service the level of customers that they already have. If spending more money meant they would earn more money, then they WOULD ALREADY BE SPENDING THAT MONEY, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THAT MONEY AVAILABLE TO THEM ALREADY, they don't need more to effect an increase in their revenues.

Cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy is going to be for naught.

47% percent don't pay squat right now.

Those damn freeloaders!
 
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