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Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

radcen

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Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
 
Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

It's a bit like those "You may have just won a zillion dollars" ads that come in the junk mail. After a while, you just don't believe them any more.
 
Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

I am not sure it has anything to do with close-mindedness.I think it has to do with the fact that the programs they want requires a **** load of tax money.The tax cuts republicans want would mean that those programs either get reduced or cut.
 
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I think we would need a plan that is good for the middle class and poor first. There is a lot of truth to the fact that most Democrats would oppose tax cuts generally, because of the price of programs, but if there was a truly beneficial tax plan being pushed by Republicans it would be interesting to see how things fell. The ideas Republicans are pushing now are just atrocious, and the response by Democrats is proportional in my opinion.
 
Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

The democrats were completely happy with Obama's moribund economy and the shrinking of the middle class, and millions of illegals waltzing in to the job market offering to work for less, and the nations debt climbing to record levels. For business, he stuck a thumb in their eye by wrapping them in regulations until they gave up and hid.

True, Obama inherited a tough hand. But he had a choice to make: Social change or economic rescue. He chose social change through demographic change and the destruction of the American identity as a diverse group of people, to tribes within a jungle.

Why?

And why are they against a republican tax plan that promises to be a job creator, and a benefit to all workers.

Class warfare of the Obama years brought pain and suffering to the middle class, make the rich richer, and didn't help the poor one bit.

Democrats don't want economic success except "their way", which has been proven not to work.
 
I am not sure it has anything to do with close-mindedness.I think it has to do with the fact that the programs they want requires a **** load of tax money.The tax cuts republicans want would mean that those programs either get reduced or cut.
"Close minded" was for lack of a better term "Hypocrisy", I felt, didn't fit at all.


I think we would need a plan that is good for the middle class and poor first. There is a lot of truth to the fact that most Democrats would oppose tax cuts generally, because of the price of programs, but if there was a truly beneficial tax plan being pushed by Republicans it would be interesting to see how things fell. The ideas Republicans are pushing now are just atrocious, and the response by Democrats is proportional in my opinion.
Agreed. My thread is intended to be more theoretical. Any meaningful tax reform will probably benefit the wealthy to some degree, also, I think that's unavoidable, but many on the left wouldn't want to hear of it. I honestly believe that many on the left have become so blinded with their obsession of the wealthy that it's become really more about punishing the wealthy than it is helping the non-wealthy.

ETA: This goes back pre-Trump, btw.
 
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Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

Yes, the "....right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need...", but they didn't.

It might have helped had they actually employed a process that included the democrats and hearings, but they didn't. It might help if they listened to the American people who are against their plan, but they don't. If they want to have a middle class tax cut, it might have helped if substantially all of the benefit was for the middle, but that isn't the case. It gets no chance because it is a bad product from a bad process developed with bad intentions (its more important to pass something, then the right thing).

At the very least, this is sloppy legislation that accomplishes nothing BUT to give tax breaks that we can afford (we are in deficit AND looking at a war) to people that do not need them. The middle class does not really get much of a tax cut (less than 1% added to take home for the lower 50% vs. 3% added to take home for the upper quartile).... with some getting a cut and others facing a tax increase. this is an AWFUL bill that will likely do serious economic damage (further exasperate wealth disparity and drive bigger deficits). Had this thing actually held hearings and received input from actual economists that could attest to its benefit, it might have had a chance. But that didn't happen.

You are trying to dress the town slut in virgin white.
 
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Yes, the "right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform...", but they didn't. It might have helped had they actually employed a process that included the democrats and hearings, but they didn't. It might help if they listened to the American people who are against their plan, but they don't. If they want to have a middle class tax cut, it might have helped if substantially all of the benefit was for the middle, but that isn't the case. It gets no chance because it is a bad product from a bad process developed for bad intentions.

At the very least, this is sloppy legislation that accomplishes nothing BUT to give tax breaks that we can afford (we are in deficit AND looking at a war) to people that do not need them. The middle class does not really get much of a tax cut (less than 1% added to take home for the lower 50% vs. 3% added to take home for the upper quartile).... with some getting a cut and others facing a tax increase. this is an AWFUL bill that will likely do serious economic damage (further exasperate wealth disparity and drive bigger deficits).

You are trying to dress the town slut in virgin white.

Please read the second part of post #7.
 
Please read the second part of post #7.

Post 7 is my post... please clarify....

If I am not clear, my point is this is a bad bill (by not being a good bill) for the middle class. Its a gross misnomer to suggest this helps the middle class.
 
Post 7 is my post... please clarify....

If I am not clear, my point is this is a bad bill (by not being a good bill) for the middle class. Its a gross misnomer to suggest this helps the middle class.

Post 6, my apologies.

Anyway, the fact that you zeroed in on Trump/Reps and current events, even though none of that is mentioned or even implied in the OP, suggests that you are one of these people of which I speak.
 
Post 6, my apologies.

Anyway, the fact that you zeroed in on Trump/Reps and current events, even though none of that is mentioned or even implied in the OP, suggests that you are one of these people of which I speak.

I am not one of the people to which you speak. You have no basis to make that statement as we are only talking about the current bill. Perhaps (likely) your premise is flawed.

I would be for tax cuts, across the board, if a) the economy were weak or b) if we were in surplus. Neither is true.

I also would be for tax reform, but it must be thought out. This is not. Its not tax reform, its a tax cut for which deductions were TAKEN from the middle class as pay fors. The broadening of the standard deduction has some merit, but the loss of deductions means we create winners and losers within the middle class ranks.

I suggest it is you that is closed minded to what is on the table. This tax plan makes no sense at any level. It is NOT a middle class tax cut, it is NOT stimulative, it is not tax reform, it is NOT necessary in our economy and it is a budget buster. I think you never met a tax cut for which did not approve, regardless of the consequences to the economy and your fellow Americans.

In order to set up these tax cuts, Republicans passed a budget that cuts $1T from healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), student loans, the SBA and FEMA. Thus, the net-net of all this is that we have a wealth transfer from the lower 50% to the upper 25%. We already have a wealth disparity problem caused by tax cuts of the 1980's

Taxes - Top 1% vs. marginal tax rates.jpg

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/10/31/16581822/republican-tax-cuts-real-costs

I did my homework before reaching my conclusions:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-dont-want-or-need-a-tax-cut-2017-09-27
https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltwa...would-add-trillions-to-the-debt/#2a620ed6f5d7
Trump-GOP Tax Plan: The Biggest Wealth Grab in Modern History | Fortune


How about you?
 
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Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

I cannot imagine the right opposing every stimulus package brought up by the left during the recession on an incessant rant of "it will raise the national debt" has anything to do with the left's "closed mindedness". How much will this tax cut be adding to the national debt?
 
I cannot imagine the right opposing every stimulus package brought up by the left during the recession on an incessant rant of "it will raise the national debt" has anything to do with the left's "closed mindedness". How much will this tax cut be adding to the national debt?

...an estimated $1.5T over 10 years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/us/politics/trump-tax-cut-plan-middle-class-deficit.html

...plus intangibles...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...151f5ca6168_story.html?utm_term=.2a2cb29c5e98
 
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Yes, the "....right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need...", but they didn't.

Are you stating that cutting the business taxs does not help the middle class by expanding jobs and higher wages.

It might have helped had they actually employed a process that included the democrats and hearings, but they didn't. It might help if they listened to the American people who are against their plan, but they don't.

You just outlined how Obamacare was passed.

If they want to have a middle class tax cut, it might have helped if substantially all of the benefit was for the middle, but that isn't the case. It gets no chance because it is a bad product from a bad process developed with bad intentions (its more important to pass something, then the right thing).

Yep Obamacare all over again

At the very least, this is sloppy legislation that accomplishes nothing BUT to give tax breaks that we can afford (we are in deficit AND looking at a war) to people that do not need them.

When do Democrats care about deficits after your Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion in just 8 yrs

The middle class does not really get much of a tax cut (less than 1% added to take home for the lower 50% vs. 3% added to take home for the upper quartile).... with some getting a cut and others facing a tax increase. this is an AWFUL bill that will likely do serious economic damage (further exasperate wealth disparity and drive bigger deficits).

Look no further than the Obama years where the rich got richer and the middle class got less. And look no further than Obama doubling the national debt.

Had this thing actually held hearings and received input from actual economists that could attest to its benefit, it might have had a chance. But that didn't happen.

Its being debated everyday, listen up.

You are trying to dress the town slut in virgin white.

Interesting reminder of Obamacare
 
Are you stating that cutting the business taxs does not help the middle class by expanding jobs and higher wages.



You just outlined how Obamacare was passed.



Yep Obamacare all over again



When do Democrats care about deficits after your Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion in just 8 yrs



Look no further than the Obama years where the rich got richer and the middle class got less. And look no further than Obama doubling the national debt.



Its being debated everyday, listen up.



Interesting reminder of Obamacare

You apparently know very little about the PPACA legislative process. It did have hearings, committees and Republican participation. It took over a year to go through the process.

Timeline of the health care law - CNNPolitics
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/111-2009/h768
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Background

You really should do you homework before posting....and, when you post, you probably should be sure your examples of equivalence are remotely equivalent. Its probably not so pleasant to embarrassing to be summarily dismissed because you don't know what you are talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act


Let this bill go over 1 year through a full process and see what happens. In the meantime, tell us what Obama did to have the debt increase..... you might start with the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 and through in two wars that were stated at that time while were cut.....

What caused the national debt? 6 culprits

....as for income disparity, the chart in post #11 shows the trend started in the 1970's, but jumped big time during the Reagan administration right after the highest marginal rate was cut. It continued, leveling off during the Clinton administration when marginal rates increased, and became a problem again after Bush Jr cut taxes. Obama has nothing to do with income disparity, except he did not fix it. The bill on the table will only make income disparity worse.

There is no known study that shows cutting corporate taxes leads to increased wages.
 
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I am not one of the people to which you speak. You have no basis to make that statement as we are only talking about the current bill. Perhaps (likely) your premise is flawed.

I would be for tax cuts, across the board, if a) the economy were weak or b) if we were in surplus. Neither is true.

I also would be for tax reform, but it must be thought out. This is not. Its not tax reform, its a tax cut for which deductions were TAKEN from the middle class as pay fors. The broadening of the standard deduction has some merit, but the loss of deductions means we create winners and losers within the middle class ranks.

I suggest it is you that is closed minded to what is on the table. This tax plan makes no sense at any level. It is NOT a middle class tax cut, it is NOT stimulative, it is not tax reform, it is NOT necessary in our economy and it is a budget buster. I think you never met a tax cut for which did not approve, regardless of the consequences to the economy and your fellow Americans.

In order to set up these tax cuts, Republicans passed a budget that cuts $1T from healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), student loans, the SBA and FEMA. Thus, the net-net of all this is that we have a wealth transfer from the lower 50% to the upper 25%. We already have a wealth disparity problem caused by tax cuts of the 1980's

View attachment 67224850

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/10/31/16581822/republican-tax-cuts-real-costs

I did my homework before reaching my conclusions:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/most-americans-dont-want-or-need-a-tax-cut-2017-09-27
https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltwa...would-add-trillions-to-the-debt/#2a620ed6f5d7
Trump-GOP Tax Plan: The Biggest Wealth Grab in Modern History | Fortune


How about you?

Obviously reading comprehension ain't your thing. This thread isn't about the current tax bill, it's about libs objecting to ANY bill which doesn't punish the rich. You are definitely one of those people. ;)
 
Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

Maybe one day they'll actually do something like that and then we'll see.

As it is, they work for their sponsors and their sponsors want tax cuts.
 
Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Why doesn't the GOP try that so we can see?

Pumping out garbage seems like the only thing they're capable of.
 
Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

I ask you, what happens when you lower taxes for the rich.. and they don't use their tax savings to pay their workers better, or they don't reinvest into their business. They don't start another business and create jobs. No. They pocket their tax savings and go relax on a beach in the Caribbean while everyone here suffers the brunt of tax cuts.

Education takes a hit, our roads take a hit, our quality of living and so forth takes a hit as.. less tax revenue, less money to go around.

What about close-mindedness again?

Tell me, should a company that just shipped 8,000 jobs overseas, be entitled to a tax cut?

Should a bank that made extremely risky bets, who went underwater, be bailed out and not left to fail? If you want these banks to not fail, do they get tax cuts too?


Well why not? It stimulates the economy. Kiss the rich's ass and maybe they'll shower us all with jobs. A golden shower.. of piss, you're damn right.

Maybe the rich will BUY stuff, woo hoo! stimulation!

A: the rich end up buying yachts and german luxury cars, all of those jobs are not in America. So someone is getting a job. And it's not us

B: many of the rich aren't big spenders anyways, they use their tax savings to invest and make themselves RICHER.

Why people continue to defend the rich elite when they have seen little to none of their lion's share, I don't understand it. Oh, you own a business and like tax cuts? What happens when big company Walmart comes in, engages in price war (as they can use slave labor in China to make their clothes etc) and puts you out of business.

Free market. Yay. Now Walmart moves into a small town, sucks all the mom and pop stores up and now they can charge what they want. Not only that, Walmart becomes the largest employer in say, a small town. Now you can't go next door to their competitor who will pay you more or better benefits. Nope. There is no competition. W-Mart pays you nothing because there are no alternatives; in many cases.
 
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I am not one of the people to which you speak. You have no basis to make that statement as we are only talking about the current bill.
This is where I stopped, because no we are not talking about the current bill. I started the thread, I know better than you what the thread is about. My premise is generic. You are free to disagree, but if you do so you will be flat-out wrong.
 
I ask you, what happens when you lower taxes for the rich.. and they don't use their tax savings to pay their workers better, or they don't reinvest into their business. They don't start another business and create jobs. No. They pocket their tax savings and go relax on a beach in the Caribbean while everyone here suffers the brunt of tax cuts.

Education takes a hit, our roads take a hit, our quality of living and so forth takes a hit as.. less tax revenue, less money to go around.

What about close-mindedness again?

Tell me, should a company that just shipped 8,000 jobs overseas, be entitled to a tax cut?

Should a bank that made extremely risky bets, who went underwater, be bailed out and not left to fail? If you want these banks to not fail, do they get tax cuts too?


Well why not? It stimulates the economy. Kiss the rich's ass and maybe they'll shower us all with jobs. A golden shower.. of piss, you're damn right.

Maybe the rich will BUY stuff, woo hoo! stimulation!

A: the rich end up buying yachts and german luxury cars, all of those jobs are not in America. So someone is getting a job. And it's not us

B: many of the rich aren't big spenders anyways, they use their tax savings to invest and make themselves RICHER.

Why people continue to defend the rich elite when they have seen little to none of their lion's share, I don't understand it. Oh, you own a business and like tax cuts? What happens when big company Walmart comes in, engages in price war (as they can use slave labor in China to make their clothes etc) and puts you out of business.

Free market. Yay. Now Walmart moves into a small town, sucks all the mom and pop stores up and now they can charge what they want. Not only that, Walmart becomes the largest employer in say, a small town. Now you can't go next door to their competitor who will pay you more or better benefits. Nope. There is no competition. W-Mart pays you nothing because there are no alternatives; in many cases.

Two friendly hints: 1) Be less wordy, 2) Stay on topic.

You're welcome.
 
Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
Maybe the right-wing "could" do that. Unfortunately, they have not. The tax plan that is on the table showers the wealthy with tax cuts; gives corporations tax cuts and because Republicans want to pass it without Democrats, they need to keep the ten year deficit addition to only $1.5 trillion, so the plan needs to raise taxes on the middle class.

Worse, since it cuts corporate taxes, a third of the beneficiaries will be foreigners, (America First!) resulting in a reduction of national income.
 
The democrats were completely happy with Obama's moribund economy and the shrinking of the middle class, and millions of illegals waltzing in to the job market offering to work for less, and the nations debt climbing to record levels. For business, he stuck a thumb in their eye by wrapping them in regulations until they gave up and hid.

True, Obama inherited a tough hand. But he had a choice to make: Social change or economic rescue. He chose social change through demographic change and the destruction of the American identity as a diverse group of people, to tribes within a jungle.

Why?

And why are they against a republican tax plan that promises to be a job creator, and a benefit to all workers.

Class warfare of the Obama years brought pain and suffering to the middle class, make the rich richer, and didn't help the poor one bit.

Democrats don't want economic success except "their way", which has been proven not to work.

First, it's apt to point out that if you think the economy is fine now, we are living under Obama fiscal policies right now. Trump has passed no economic policy.
Second, if you are really concerned with a "shrinking of the middle class" then the last thing that we need is tax-cuts on the rich, which is the Trump/GOP plan.
Third, if you are claiming that tax-cuts on the rich are the magic that boosts economies, you are swimming against the stream of history. The Clinton boom, the Bush debacle, the Kansas disaster, and the strength of the economy after 2013 are all examples that undercut the GOP tax-cut myth. The GOP tax-plan isn't going to boost economic output, it's just going to redistribute money from the middle class to the rich -- but we know that conservatives are only against redistribution when it goes the other way. Enriching the rich is just fine.
 
It's a bit like those "You may have just won a zillion dollars" ads that come in the junk mail. After a while, you just don't believe them any more.

Double Like!!!! I wouldn't mind paying a bit more if those above me also paid a bit more. Especially for everyone getting healthcare or to reduce debt. But for Corporations that already have an EFFECTIVE rate of 20% or less or so those making 500k or more getting a better portfolio its just plain bull****. Which is what this legislation proposes. ****ing ridiculous!
 
I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need

That's some funny stuff right there.

Republicans demonstrably, with all evidence being open and public and on the record, consistently propose tax cuts that are wildly in favor of the wealthiest Americans, but you suspect it's politics that makes this so?!?! You have fallen to the dark side apparently. "It's just political!!!" That's when you know you've lost it.

And you also suspect that Republican's could actually come up with a tax cut for the middle class/poor (awesome, great benefit)? Based on what evidence? We have their tax plans as evidence against, but we have your "suspicion" in favor...do you see that as possibly conspiratorial?

If there is *any* reason to vote Republican on issues, it's for tax cuts if you're wealthy. Everyone knows this, it's no ****ing secret, it's one of the few benefits you get as a business owner/wealthy democrat...if a Republicans takes office you know that at least you'll likely see a reduced tax bill (suckha's!)

In the real world, you can read a few tax number highlights and read a few analysis pieces on it, and make your own *cough* apolitical determination based on facts. Are you saying somehow the Left opposes it based on just political rhetoric, and not the actual plans proposed?!
 
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