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Thread: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

  1. #21
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by NerosGold View Post
    I ask you, what happens when you lower taxes for the rich.. and they don't use their tax savings to pay their workers better, or they don't reinvest into their business. They don't start another business and create jobs. No. They pocket their tax savings and go relax on a beach in the Caribbean while everyone here suffers the brunt of tax cuts.

    Education takes a hit, our roads take a hit, our quality of living and so forth takes a hit as.. less tax revenue, less money to go around.

    What about close-mindedness again?

    Tell me, should a company that just shipped 8,000 jobs overseas, be entitled to a tax cut?

    Should a bank that made extremely risky bets, who went underwater, be bailed out and not left to fail? If you want these banks to not fail, do they get tax cuts too?


    Well why not? It stimulates the economy. Kiss the rich's ass and maybe they'll shower us all with jobs. A golden shower.. of piss, you're damn right.

    Maybe the rich will BUY stuff, woo hoo! stimulation!

    A: the rich end up buying yachts and german luxury cars, all of those jobs are not in America. So someone is getting a job. And it's not us

    B: many of the rich aren't big spenders anyways, they use their tax savings to invest and make themselves RICHER.

    Why people continue to defend the rich elite when they have seen little to none of their lion's share, I don't understand it. Oh, you own a business and like tax cuts? What happens when big company Walmart comes in, engages in price war (as they can use slave labor in China to make their clothes etc) and puts you out of business.

    Free market. Yay. Now Walmart moves into a small town, sucks all the mom and pop stores up and now they can charge what they want. Not only that, Walmart becomes the largest employer in say, a small town. Now you can't go next door to their competitor who will pay you more or better benefits. Nope. There is no competition. W-Mart pays you nothing because there are no alternatives; in many cases.
    Two friendly hints: 1) Be less wordy, 2) Stay on topic.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

    Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
    Maybe the right-wing "could" do that. Unfortunately, they have not. The tax plan that is on the table showers the wealthy with tax cuts; gives corporations tax cuts and because Republicans want to pass it without Democrats, they need to keep the ten year deficit addition to only $1.5 trillion, so the plan needs to raise taxes on the middle class.

    Worse, since it cuts corporate taxes, a third of the beneficiaries will be foreigners, (America First!) resulting in a reduction of national income.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckiechan View Post
    The democrats were completely happy with Obama's moribund economy and the shrinking of the middle class, and millions of illegals waltzing in to the job market offering to work for less, and the nations debt climbing to record levels. For business, he stuck a thumb in their eye by wrapping them in regulations until they gave up and hid.

    True, Obama inherited a tough hand. But he had a choice to make: Social change or economic rescue. He chose social change through demographic change and the destruction of the American identity as a diverse group of people, to tribes within a jungle.

    Why?

    And why are they against a republican tax plan that promises to be a job creator, and a benefit to all workers.

    Class warfare of the Obama years brought pain and suffering to the middle class, make the rich richer, and didn't help the poor one bit.

    Democrats don't want economic success except "their way", which has been proven not to work.
    First, it's apt to point out that if you think the economy is fine now, we are living under Obama fiscal policies right now. Trump has passed no economic policy.
    Second, if you are really concerned with a "shrinking of the middle class" then the last thing that we need is tax-cuts on the rich, which is the Trump/GOP plan.
    Third, if you are claiming that tax-cuts on the rich are the magic that boosts economies, you are swimming against the stream of history. The Clinton boom, the Bush debacle, the Kansas disaster, and the strength of the economy after 2013 are all examples that undercut the GOP tax-cut myth. The GOP tax-plan isn't going to boost economic output, it's just going to redistribute money from the middle class to the rich -- but we know that conservatives are only against redistribution when it goes the other way. Enriching the rich is just fine.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    It's a bit like those "You may have just won a zillion dollars" ads that come in the junk mail. After a while, you just don't believe them any more.
    Double Like!!!! I wouldn't mind paying a bit more if those above me also paid a bit more. Especially for everyone getting healthcare or to reduce debt. But for Corporations that already have an EFFECTIVE rate of 20% or less or so those making 500k or more getting a better portfolio its just plain bull****. Which is what this legislation proposes. ****ing ridiculous!
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need
    That's some funny stuff right there.

    Republicans demonstrably, with all evidence being open and public and on the record, consistently propose tax cuts that are wildly in favor of the wealthiest Americans, but you suspect it's politics that makes this so?!?! You have fallen to the dark side apparently. "It's just political!!!" That's when you know you've lost it.

    And you also suspect that Republican's could actually come up with a tax cut for the middle class/poor (awesome, great benefit)? Based on what evidence? We have their tax plans as evidence against, but we have your "suspicion" in favor...do you see that as possibly conspiratorial?

    If there is *any* reason to vote Republican on issues, it's for tax cuts if you're wealthy. Everyone knows this, it's no ****ing secret, it's one of the few benefits you get as a business owner/wealthy democrat...if a Republicans takes office you know that at least you'll likely see a reduced tax bill (suckha's!)

    In the real world, you can read a few tax number highlights and read a few analysis pieces on it, and make your own *cough* apolitical determination based on facts. Are you saying somehow the Left opposes it based on just political rhetoric, and not the actual plans proposed?!

  6. #26
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Let this bill go over 1 yea
    Where does it say every bill passed by congress has to go through a 1 year process?


    In the meantime, tell us what Obama did to have the debt increase..... you might start with the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 and through in two wars that were stated at that time while were cut.....
    Under Obama he borrowed 10 trillion in 8 yrs and he ended up with the worst recovery in US History. He supported 1.8% GDP growth on average for that 10 Trillion. The rich got richer and the middle class got less. More poor on food stamps, section 8 house, homeless, lowest labor participation rate in decades, etc etc etc.

    It continued, leveling off during the Clinton administration when marginal rates increased, and became a problem again after Bush Jr cut taxes. Obama has nothing to do with income disparity, except he did not fix it.
    Do you not remember Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton cut taxes and boom years followed. Even Obama extended Bushes tax cuts, problem was they are all the wrong cuts.

    The bill on the table will only make income disparity worse.
    The disparity can't get any worse than it did under Obama after borrowing 10 trillion and pumping it into the economy. That he said would go for shovel ready projects and then laughs that there was no shovel ready projocts. What an Idiot.

    There is no known study that shows cutting corporate taxes leads to increased wages.
    Then your going to learn something. Not only cutting taxes on corporations will create more jobs, it will bring home some of our corporations from foreign lands and keep them from leaving, and it will repatriate the trillions held overseas all because of high corporate and small business tax rates. And it will increase middle class wages.

    I guess according to you raising taxes on corporations makes them more competitive on the world stage and would never leave this country's high tax rates to set up shop in a country that has a lower tax rate. Maybe you can explain why many of our corporations are keeping several trillions overseas and not bringing it home. They must be waiting according to you for the tax rate to go higher before they bring that money home.

    I would suggest instead of you posting a bunch of liberal raise taxes at all cost comic strips, try thinking for yourself.
    Liberals - Punish the Successful, Reward the Unsuccessful
    Liberals - Tax, Borrow, Spend, and Give Free Stuff
    Obama's legacy - President Donald Trump

  7. #27
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    That's some funny stuff right there.

    Republicans demonstrably, with all evidence being open and public and on the record, consistently propose tax cuts that are wildly in favor of the wealthiest Americans, but you suspect it's politics that makes this so?!?! You have fallen to the dark side apparently. "It's just political!!!" That's when you know you've lost it.

    And you also suspect that Republican's could actually come up with a tax cut for the middle class/poor (awesome, great benefit)? Based on what evidence? We have their tax plans as evidence against, but we have your "suspicion" in favor...do you see that as possibly conspiratorial?

    If there is *any* reason to vote Republican on issues, it's for tax cuts if you're wealthy. Everyone knows this, it's no ****ing secret, it's one of the few benefits you get as a business owner/wealthy democrat...if a Republicans takes office you know that at least you'll likely see a reduced tax bill (suckha's!)

    In the real world, you can read a few tax number highlights and read a few analysis pieces on it, and make your own *cough* apolitical determination based on facts. Are you saying somehow the Left opposes it based on just political rhetoric, and not the actual plans proposed?!
    Point well taken. The tax-cuts are skewed two the wealthy -- not only in dollars because they pay more taxes, but in the p% that they gain. This is the Senate plan.

    Dollars graph


    Source
    Last edited by MTAtech; 11-13-17 at 07:01 AM.
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

  8. #28
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

    Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
    Sorry Rad, you’re just posting “conservative narrative”. Democrats voted for the Reagan tax cuts. No harm in trying but it failed to deliver on every metric. They learned the cuts did nothing but add to the deficit. Now democrats are not going to vote for tax cuts that skew to the wealthy. That alone disproves your “narrative”. Now let’s look at Clinton. He raised taxes on the top bracket and the republican deficits he inherited went down. With deficits continuing to decline he proposed a tax cut that didn’t skew to the wealthy. Just look at the table in how the republican congress tried to skew it.

    Clinton Tax Cut.jpg
    https://www.cbpp.org/archives/clinttax.htm

    So no, democrats don’t have an “ideological” hatred of tax cuts as you "perceived". Clinton raised taxes when appropriate and cut taxes when appropriate as did President Obama. That’s now three examples that disprove your “narrative.” There simply is no economic reason for cutting taxes right except greed. And since republicans cant put forth any economic reason it seems their defense of them is simply “dems hate tax cuts”. Sadly that works perfectly on conservatives. Anyhoo, the best part is that the current proposal once again proves that republicans are flaming lying hypocrites where deficits are concerned.
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPeanut View Post
    I think we would need a plan that is good for the middle class and poor first. There is a lot of truth to the fact that most Democrats would oppose tax cuts generally, because of the price of programs, but if there was a truly beneficial tax plan being pushed by Republicans it would be interesting to see how things fell. The ideas Republicans are pushing now are just atrocious, and the response by Democrats is proportional in my opinion.
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    "Close minded" was for lack of a better term "Hypocrisy", I felt, didn't fit at all.



    Agreed. My thread is intended to be more theoretical. Any meaningful tax reform will probably benefit the wealthy to some degree, also, I think that's unavoidable, but many on the left wouldn't want to hear of it. I honestly believe that many on the left have become so blinded with their obsession of the wealthy that it's become really more about punishing the wealthy than it is helping the non-wealthy.

    ETA: This goes back pre-Trump, btw.
    The Left's opposition to this tax plan stems from the abolition of the state/local tax deduction. That's going to sting the bluest of the blue high tax states when the citizens of those states don't get reimbursed for the state/local taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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