Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

upsideguy said:

Let this bill go over 1 yea

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Where does it say every bill passed by congress has to go through a 1 year process?

In the meantime, tell us what Obama did to have the debt increase..... you might start with the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 and through in two wars that were stated at that time while were cut.....

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Under Obama he borrowed 10 trillion in 8 yrs and he ended up with the worst recovery in US History. He supported 1.8% GDP growth on average for that 10 Trillion. The rich got richer and the middle class got less. More poor on food stamps, section 8 house, homeless, lowest labor participation rate in decades, etc etc etc.

It continued, leveling off during the Clinton administration when marginal rates increased, and became a problem again after Bush Jr cut taxes. Obama has nothing to do with income disparity, except he did not fix it.

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Do you not remember Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton cut taxes and boom years followed. Even Obama extended Bushes tax cuts, problem was they are all the wrong cuts.

The bill on the table will only make income disparity worse.

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The disparity can't get any worse than it did under Obama after borrowing 10 trillion and pumping it into the economy. That he said would go for shovel ready projects and then laughs that there was no shovel ready projocts. What an Idiot.

There is no known study that shows cutting corporate taxes leads to increased wages.

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Then your going to learn something. Not only cutting taxes on corporations will create more jobs, it will bring home some of our corporations from foreign lands and keep them from leaving, and it will repatriate the trillions held overseas all because of high corporate and small business tax rates. And it will increase middle class wages.

I guess according to you raising taxes on corporations makes them more competitive on the world stage and would never leave this country's high tax rates to set up shop in a country that has a lower tax rate. Maybe you can explain why many of our corporations are keeping several trillions overseas and not bringing it home. They must be waiting according to you for the tax rate to go higher before they bring that money home.

I would suggest instead of you posting a bunch of liberal raise taxes at all cost comic strips, try thinking for yourself.

Mach said:

That's some funny stuff right there.

Republicans demonstrably, with all evidence being open and public and on the record, consistently propose tax cuts that are wildly in favor of the wealthiest Americans, but you suspect it's politics that makes this so?!?! You have fallen to the dark side apparently. "It's just political!!!" That's when you know you've lost it.

And you also suspect that Republican's could actually come up with a tax cut for the middle class/poor (awesome, great benefit)? Based on what evidence? We have their tax plans as evidence against, but we have your "suspicion" in favor...do you see that as possibly conspiratorial?

If there is *any* reason to vote Republican on issues, it's for tax cuts if you're wealthy. Everyone knows this, it's no ****ing secret, it's one of the few benefits you get as a business owner/wealthy democrat...if a Republicans takes office you know that at least you'll likely see a reduced tax bill (suckha's!)

In the real world, you can read a few tax number highlights and read a few analysis pieces on it, and make your own *cough* apolitical determination based on facts. Are you saying somehow the Left opposes it based on just political rhetoric, and not the actual plans proposed?!

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Point well taken. The tax-cuts are skewed two the wealthy -- not only in dollars because they pay more taxes, but in the p% that they gain. This is the Senate plan.

Dollars graph


Source

radcen said:

Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

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Sorry Rad, you’re just posting “conservative narrative”. Democrats voted for the Reagan tax cuts. No harm in trying but it failed to deliver on every metric. They learned the cuts did nothing but add to the deficit. Now democrats are not going to vote for tax cuts that skew to the wealthy. That alone disproves your “narrative”. Now let’s look at Clinton. He raised taxes on the top bracket and the republican deficits he inherited went down. With deficits continuing to decline he proposed a tax cut that didn’t skew to the wealthy. Just look at the table in how the republican congress tried to skew it.


https://www.cbpp.org/archives/clinttax.htm

So no, democrats don’t have an “ideological” hatred of tax cuts as you "perceived". Clinton raised taxes when appropriate and cut taxes when appropriate as did President Obama. That’s now three examples that disprove your “narrative.” There simply is no economic reason for cutting taxes right except greed. And since republicans cant put forth any economic reason it seems their defense of them is simply “dems hate tax cuts”. Sadly that works perfectly on conservatives. Anyhoo, the best part is that the current proposal once again proves that republicans are flaming lying hypocrites where deficits are concerned.

MrPeanut said:

I think we would need a plan that is good for the middle class and poor first. There is a lot of truth to the fact that most Democrats would oppose tax cuts generally, because of the price of programs, but if there was a truly beneficial tax plan being pushed by Republicans it would be interesting to see how things fell. The ideas Republicans are pushing now are just atrocious, and the response by Democrats is proportional in my opinion.

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Poor people don't pay taxes.

radcen said:

"Close minded" was for lack of a better term "Hypocrisy", I felt, didn't fit at all.



Agreed. My thread is intended to be more theoretical. Any meaningful tax reform will probably benefit the wealthy to some degree, also, I think that's unavoidable, but many on the left wouldn't want to hear of it. I honestly believe that many on the left have become so blinded with their obsession of the wealthy that it's become really more about punishing the wealthy than it is helping the non-wealthy.

ETA: This goes back pre-Trump, btw.

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The Left's opposition to this tax plan stems from the abolition of the state/local tax deduction. That's going to sting the bluest of the blue high tax states when the citizens of those states don't get reimbursed for the state/local taxes.

radcen said:

Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

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Many in the middle class get a tax hike. Are you saying a tax hike is what the middle class needs?

Amazingly, the bill released by House Republican leaders last week would increase taxes, on net, for families that have at least one child and make less than $100,000.

radcen said:

Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

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Not really sure what your point is here. You're creating a mythical tax plan in your own mind that is not on the table and hasn't ever been proposed by Republicans in living memory, then assuming that Democrats would oppose this fantasy. Perhaps, but I don't see a real basis on which to debate. We say, "Will not!" and you say, "Will TOO!" and because it's a mythical plan, there is no way to rationally debate the subject or demonstrate who might be correct if/when the GOP proposes such a plan that primarily benefits average people versus wealthy contributors.

Furthermore, IMO at least, you can't take the tax plan in isolation. We are already looking at big deficits going forward and the GOP tax cuts make them worse. Well, we know what's next - proposals to cut spending, and we know where those will have to impact - programs for the poor and old. That's where the money is (except for military spending, which the GOP won't seriously cut).

We've seen this play out again and again, so why would "the left" pretend this time is different? And why would you blame the left for assuming that what happened every time in living memory is a good guess what will happen this time? That's not being "close minded" - it's called being rational.

countryboy said:

Obviously reading comprehension ain't your thing. This thread isn't about the current tax bill, it's about libs objecting to ANY bill which doesn't punish the rich. You are definitely one of those people.

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Obviously you don't know how to read between the lines.... The poster in expressing exasperation about the current bill asks the rhetoric question "do the libs ever support tax cuts for the rich"

radcen said:

Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

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He was asking the question in response to a contemporary issue. He is telling us all that the libs would never support a tax cut even if it ".....would to be of great benefit to the middle class and poor, give them everything they need...."

Well, I suppose I should have demanded he show me an example of such, because I haven't seen one. Let the Republicans propose the above and see what happens.... that hasn't happened in the Tax Reform Act of 1986 (which wasn't a cut, but was true tax reform)....and many to most Dems supported it... So, his basic premise was ridiculous to flawed.

I explained why this is not a good tax cut and not a good example of something I (nor most Democrats) would support. I documented my rationale...... If you actually read my post (since reading comprehension does not a appear to be a strong suit of yours), I stated under what conditions I do/would support a tax cut. Those conditions do not exist today.

Not supporting tax cuts does not make you close minded if you have well thought-out reasons for such; on the other hand, simply supporting them without thought out and defensible reasons for such does make you close minded.

I see you are more than happy to respond.... lets hear your well thoughtout and documented reasons for thinking this particular tax cut (or tax cuts, in general) are a good thing.

Born Free said:

Where does it say every bill passed by congress has to go through a 1 year process?




Under Obama he borrowed 10 trillion in 8 yrs and he ended up with the worst recovery in US History. He supported 1.8% GDP growth on average for that 10 Trillion. The rich got richer and the middle class got less. More poor on food stamps, section 8 house, homeless, lowest labor participation rate in decades, etc etc etc.



Do you not remember Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton cut taxes and boom years followed. Even Obama extended Bushes tax cuts, problem was they are all the wrong cuts.



The disparity can't get any worse than it did under Obama after borrowing 10 trillion and pumping it into the economy. That he said would go for shovel ready projects and then laughs that there was no shovel ready projocts. What an Idiot.



Then your going to learn something. Not only cutting taxes on corporations will create more jobs, it will bring home some of our corporations from foreign lands and keep them from leaving, and it will repatriate the trillions held overseas all because of high corporate and small business tax rates. And it will increase middle class wages.

I guess according to you raising taxes on corporations makes them more competitive on the world stage and would never leave this country's high tax rates to set up shop in a country that has a lower tax rate. Maybe you can explain why many of our corporations are keeping several trillions overseas and not bringing it home. They must be waiting according to you for the tax rate to go higher before they bring that money home.

I would suggest instead of you posting a bunch of liberal raise taxes at all cost comic strips, try thinking for yourself.

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OK, the only thing you have posted here are things kicking around in your head. There is no independent collaboration of anything you say here. I, unlike you, posted third party evidence that refuted most of your original post. I am not really interested in debating your false impressions of economics (as they are substantially false). You go off and research your points, then present them. Otherwise we all get to dismiss you as someone that just reguritates stuff that sounds good.

The notion that cutting corporate tax rates will raise wages is shallow and without any economic foundation. The notion that companies have left the US because of high tax rates is not completely wrong, but largely misunderstood People that state this show no understanding of economics (there is ZERO relationship between a corporate structure and wages paid), but do show themselves to be people that believe everything they here on Fox News.

So pal, is there any substance to your thoughts (back up what you say --- with credible sources), or should I just join you one day while you watch Hannity.

Vern said:

Sorry Rad, you’re just posting “conservative narrative”. Democrats voted for the Reagan tax cuts. No harm in trying but it failed to deliver on every metric. They learned the cuts did nothing but add to the deficit. Now democrats are not going to vote for tax cuts that skew to the wealthy. That alone disproves your “narrative”. Now let’s look at Clinton. He raised taxes on the top bracket and the republican deficits he inherited went down. With deficits continuing to decline he proposed a tax cut that didn’t skew to the wealthy. Just look at the table in how the republican congress tried to skew it.



So no, democrats don’t have an “ideological” hatred of tax cuts as you "perceived". Clinton raised taxes when appropriate and cut taxes when appropriate as did President Obama. That’s now three examples that disprove your “narrative.” There simply is no economic reason for cutting taxes right except greed. And since republicans cant put forth any economic reason it seems their defense of them is simply “dems hate tax cuts”. Sadly that works perfectly on conservatives. Anyhoo, the best part is that the current proposal once again proves that republicans are flaming lying hypocrites where deficits are concerned.

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Did you even read what I said? I don't think you did. You zeroed in on Dems/tax cuts and went off on your little tangent. The premise of the thread isn't tax reform or cuts, that's only the vehicle for the premise, so to speak. The premise of the thread is blind partisan knee-jerk hackery, and an outright unwillingness to even consider anything the other side puts forth solely because it was put forth by the other side.

That's ok, though. Results suggest that most people didn't slow down to read, either.

radcen said:

Did you even read what I said? I don't think you did. You zeroed in on Dems/tax cuts and went off on your little tangent. The premise of the thread isn't tax reform or cuts, that's only the vehicle for the premise, so to speak. The premise of the thread is blind partisan knee-jerk hackery, and an outright unwillingness to even consider anything the other side puts forth solely because it was put forth by the other side.

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That could be a problem, but you're just asserting the case without pointing to any evidence of it being true.

Would the Democrats work with the GOP on tax reform? Dunno, but when the GOP literally locks the Democrats out of the negotiations and adopts rules that will prevent them from offering amendments, in a process with no public hearings, how can we know?

And this comment perfectly describes the GOP approach here: "an outright unwillingness to even consider anything the other side puts forth solely because it was put forth by the other side." It happened with healthcare and now it's happening with the tax bills, in both the House and Senate. Where have the GOP indicated a willingness to consider Democratic suggestions? Well, never, per the rules....

radcen said:

Did you even read what I said? I don't think you did. You zeroed in on Dems/tax cuts and went off on your little tangent. The premise of the thread isn't tax reform or cuts, that's only the vehicle for the premise, so to speak. The premise of the thread is blind partisan knee-jerk hackery, and an outright unwillingness to even consider anything the other side puts forth solely because it was put forth by the other side.

That's ok, though. Results suggest that most people didn't slow down to read, either.

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Okay, if you say it wasn't about "dems hate tax cuts" and its really just about partisan hackery of opposing anything republicans propose I must ask you: Did you read the title of the thread? In case you missed it, the title of the thread is "Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left". So lets just assume that your thread is really just about "hackery" in general and not tax cuts specifically and you're not just trying to walk back your narrative. I have to ask: Did you read my post? I mentioned democrats voted for Reagan's tax cuts. Doesn't that address your "hackery" in general and not tax cuts specifically standard? And democrats voted for Bush's stimulus in 2008. yea, they didnt make it about the deficit. Their concern was America. Juxtapose that with the republicans not voting for President Obama's stimulus. Wasn't that "hackery" in general and not tax cuts specifically?

Now Rad, since we're discussing "hackery" in general and not tax cuts specifically, what about the greatest "hackery" in the history of human civilization: Republicans opposed the healthcare reform they supported for 20 years simply because President Obama compromised on it. Where's your thread on that? Oh, that's a real example of "hackery" in general and not tax cuts specifically . You only start threads on mythical examples.

JasperL said:

That could be a problem, but you're just asserting the case without pointing to any evidence of it being true.

Would the Democrats work with the GOP on tax reform? Dunno, but when the GOP literally locks the Democrats out of the negotiations and adopts rules that will prevent them from offering amendments, in a process with no public hearings, how can we know?

And this comment perfectly describes the GOP approach here: "an outright unwillingness to even consider anything the other side puts forth solely because it was put forth by the other side." It happened with healthcare and now it's happening with the tax bills, in both the House and Senate. Where have the GOP indicated a willingness to consider Democratic suggestions? Well, never, per the rules....

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Keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing said, nor implied, that the right doesn't have it's own similar shortsighted flaws. One does not need to list every single possibility and nuance in every statement.

Or, maybe in today's partisan environment, they do.

radcen said:

Keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing said, nor implied, that the right doesn't have it's own similar shortsighted flaws. One does not need to list every single possibility and nuance in every statement.

Or, maybe in today's partisan environment, they do.

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But the problem is your OP invented a position that Democrats would take to a mythical bill (against it just because the GOP is for it), but you're ignoring the actual position taken by the GOP in real life on healthcare and now their actual position on an actual tax bill that we are discussing and that might become law.

Besides, as I said earlier, it's really impossible to intelligently debate these "What if" scenarios. In fact, my own guess is there are plenty of Democrats who would engage in a good faith effort on tax reform. Just for example, the Democrats have their own wealthy contributors and I'm sure many of them would love for Congress to address corporate tax reform in particular, because our system of taxing international activity is pretty broken, and some big time Democratic donors are on record that our corporate rate is out of line with the rest of the world. The problem for me and you in this argument is we cannot know what the Democrats would do because the rules the GOP established in real life make it IMPOSSIBLE FOR DEMOCRATS TO DO ANYTHING.

If those are the rules - paraphrased, "F**k you, Democrats"- what the hell do you expect from Democrats just as a matter of politics?

apdst said:

The Left's opposition to this tax plan stems from the abolition of the state/local tax deduction. That's going to sting the bluest of the blue high tax states when the citizens of those states don't get reimbursed for the state/local taxes.

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Well there's also that thing about the rich getting more in tax breaks than the middle class. As long as rich people get more in tax cuts than the lower end of the totem pole, Democrats will be against it. If a middle class person gets a $5000 per year tax cut and the rich get a $5001 tax cut, Democrats will reject it.

Moderate Right said:

Well there's also that thing about the rich getting more in tax breaks than the middle class. As long as rich people get more in tax cuts than the lower end of the totem pole, Democrats will be against it. If a middle class person gets a $5000 per year tax cut and the rich get a $5001 tax cut, Democrats will reject it.

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As a Progressive, I can tell you that I would reject any tax cut for the rich the same way I reject any increase in the defense budget. It's a waste of money. Especially when we have bigger priorities like our failing infrastructure, our lack of universal healthcare, our pointless wars, climate change, ever increasing debt, etc.

If conservatives want to cut taxes, how about they first cut the military and pay for it? No, that they won't do. Instead, conservatives would prefer taking from the weakest amongst us to pad the pockets of their richest buddies.

Tettsuo said:

As a Progressive, I can tell you that I would reject any tax cut for the rich the same way I reject any increase in the defense budget. It's a waste of money. Especially when we have bigger priorities like our failing infrastructure, our lack of universal healthcare, our pointless wars, climate change, ever increasing debt, etc.

If conservatives want to cut taxes, how about they first cut the military and pay for it? No, that they won't do. Instead, conservatives would prefer taking from the weakest amongst us to pad the pockets of their richest buddies.

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Where are conservatives "taking from the weakest"? 47% of Americans pay zero federal income taxes and conservatives want to give the middle class a tax break.

radcen said:

Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

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So you believe that a valid way to criticize leftists is to... accuse them of wrongdoing in your own hypothetical scenario. Wait, what?

Meanwhile, back in the real world: Democrats have signed on for years to various tax cuts. They've even proposed and passed them, such as the payroll tax break as part of the 2009 stimulus act. They agree that the corporate tax code needs reform as well.

We should note that the real issues with the current proposed reform is that a) it's a huge tax boon for wealthy people, and b) it's going to increase taxes for a bunch of the middle class, who are already squeezed pretty badly these days. There are other issues as well, such as how eliminating the SALT deduction is a form of double taxation. Criticizing a specific set of reform bills, because they suck, does not mean or prove opposition to any and all tax reform bills.

apdst said:

Poor people don't pay taxes.

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Everyone pays taxes.

Poor people don't pay federal income taxes.

Moderate Right said:

Well there's also that thing about the rich getting more in tax breaks than the middle class. As long as rich people get more in tax cuts than the lower end of the totem pole, Democrats will be against it. If a middle class person gets a $5000 per year tax cut and the rich get a $5001 tax cut, Democrats will reject it.

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IMO, that's nonsense, but the real issue is that is not anything like the tax plan the GOP proposed in real life. We can debate myths and wishes all day if we want, but the GOP has a record, we are looking at part of it, and their "tax reform" efforts don't do anything like you suggest. So why worry about what Democrats might do with a GOP tax proposal that doesn't exist?

Dittohead not! said:

Everyone pays taxes.

Poor people don't pay federal income taxes.

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Yeah, that's what I meant since that's what the thread is about.

Hari Seldon said:

Double Like!!!! I wouldn't mind paying a bit more if those above me also paid a bit more. Especially for everyone getting healthcare or to reduce debt. But for Corporations that already have an EFFECTIVE rate of 20% or less or so those making 500k or more getting a better portfolio its just plain bull****. Which is what this legislation proposes. ****ing ridiculous!

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But the question remains for Leftists: How much is enough? 95%? 100%? How about a novel idea. Completely gut any and all social welfare entitlement spending and revert it back to the states where it belongs.

radcen said:

Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " :2mad: ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"

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Conservatives could stop all war forever, feed every single hungry person on the planet, cure every disease, provide 100% clean and free energy forever and end racism on a global scale and there are going to be very large number of liberals who find fault in every single thing they did.

Stopping war: "They just did that so that they can cut taxes and stop paying for healthcare for veterans."
Feeding the hungry: "That's just a sellout to Big Ag."
Cure every disease:" They only did that so that they can get rid of the nurses unions."
Clean and free energy: "They only did so that they can control people through controlling energy."
Ending racism: "They just want to get rid of diversity."

Tettsuo said:

As a Progressive, I can tell you that I would reject any tax cut for the rich the same way I reject any increase in the defense budget. It's a waste of money. Especially when we have bigger priorities like our failing infrastructure, our lack of universal healthcare, our pointless wars, climate change, ever increasing debt, etc.

If conservatives want to cut taxes, how about they first cut the military and pay for it? No, that they won't do. Instead, conservatives would prefer taking from the weakest amongst us to pad the pockets of their richest buddies.

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And leave us vulnerable to attack because our military is stuck with outdated equipment and weaponry? You forget that national security, not social welfare charity, is a Constitutional MANDATE!!!

Bassman said:

But the question remains for Leftists: How much is enough? 95%? 100%? How about a novel idea. Completely gut any and all social welfare entitlement spending and revert it back to the states where it belongs.

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How much, 95%? Duh! When you type bull**** expect a similar response.

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