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Thread: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

  1. #11
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Post 6, my apologies.

    Anyway, the fact that you zeroed in on Trump/Reps and current events, even though none of that is mentioned or even implied in the OP, suggests that you are one of these people of which I speak.
    I am not one of the people to which you speak. You have no basis to make that statement as we are only talking about the current bill. Perhaps (likely) your premise is flawed.

    I would be for tax cuts, across the board, if a) the economy were weak or b) if we were in surplus. Neither is true.

    I also would be for tax reform, but it must be thought out. This is not. Its not tax reform, its a tax cut for which deductions were TAKEN from the middle class as pay fors. The broadening of the standard deduction has some merit, but the loss of deductions means we create winners and losers within the middle class ranks.

    I suggest it is you that is closed minded to what is on the table. This tax plan makes no sense at any level. It is NOT a middle class tax cut, it is NOT stimulative, it is not tax reform, it is NOT necessary in our economy and it is a budget buster. I think you never met a tax cut for which did not approve, regardless of the consequences to the economy and your fellow Americans.

    In order to set up these tax cuts, Republicans passed a budget that cuts $1T from healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), student loans, the SBA and FEMA. Thus, the net-net of all this is that we have a wealth transfer from the lower 50% to the upper 25%. We already have a wealth disparity problem caused by tax cuts of the 1980's

    Taxes - Top 1% vs. marginal tax rates.jpg

    https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...uts-real-costs

    I did my homework before reaching my conclusions:

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mo...cut-2017-09-27
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway.../#2a620ed6f5d7
    Trump-GOP Tax Plan: The Biggest Wealth Grab in Modern History | Fortune


    How about you?
    Last edited by upsideguy; 11-12-17 at 01:25 PM.

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

    Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
    I cannot imagine the right opposing every stimulus package brought up by the left during the recession on an incessant rant of "it will raise the national debt" has anything to do with the left's "closed mindedness". How much will this tax cut be adding to the national debt?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    The economy will improve under this bill. If a few people die, it will be for the betterament of this country.

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I cannot imagine the right opposing every stimulus package brought up by the left during the recession on an incessant rant of "it will raise the national debt" has anything to do with the left's "closed mindedness". How much will this tax cut be adding to the national debt?
    ...an estimated $1.5T over 10 years.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/u...s-deficit.html

    ...plus intangibles...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.2a2cb29c5e98
    Last edited by upsideguy; 11-12-17 at 01:32 PM.

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    Yes, the "....right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need...", but they didn't.
    Are you stating that cutting the business taxs does not help the middle class by expanding jobs and higher wages.

    It might have helped had they actually employed a process that included the democrats and hearings, but they didn't. It might help if they listened to the American people who are against their plan, but they don't.
    You just outlined how Obamacare was passed.

    If they want to have a middle class tax cut, it might have helped if substantially all of the benefit was for the middle, but that isn't the case. It gets no chance because it is a bad product from a bad process developed with bad intentions (its more important to pass something, then the right thing).
    Yep Obamacare all over again

    At the very least, this is sloppy legislation that accomplishes nothing BUT to give tax breaks that we can afford (we are in deficit AND looking at a war) to people that do not need them.
    When do Democrats care about deficits after your Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion in just 8 yrs

    The middle class does not really get much of a tax cut (less than 1% added to take home for the lower 50% vs. 3% added to take home for the upper quartile).... with some getting a cut and others facing a tax increase. this is an AWFUL bill that will likely do serious economic damage (further exasperate wealth disparity and drive bigger deficits).
    Look no further than the Obama years where the rich got richer and the middle class got less. And look no further than Obama doubling the national debt.

    Had this thing actually held hearings and received input from actual economists that could attest to its benefit, it might have had a chance. But that didn't happen.
    Its being debated everyday, listen up.

    You are trying to dress the town slut in virgin white.
    Interesting reminder of Obamacare
    Liberals - Punish the Successful, Reward the Unsuccessful
    Liberals - Tax, Borrow, Spend, and Give Free Stuff
    Obama's legacy - President Donald Trump

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by Born Free View Post
    Are you stating that cutting the business taxs does not help the middle class by expanding jobs and higher wages.



    You just outlined how Obamacare was passed.



    Yep Obamacare all over again



    When do Democrats care about deficits after your Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion in just 8 yrs



    Look no further than the Obama years where the rich got richer and the middle class got less. And look no further than Obama doubling the national debt.



    Its being debated everyday, listen up.



    Interesting reminder of Obamacare
    You apparently know very little about the PPACA legislative process. It did have hearings, committees and Republican participation. It took over a year to go through the process.

    Timeline of the health care law - CNNPolitics
    https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/111-2009/h768
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patien...Act#Background

    You really should do you homework before posting....and, when you post, you probably should be sure your examples of equivalence are remotely equivalent. Its probably not so pleasant to embarrassing to be summarily dismissed because you don't know what you are talking about.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patien...dable_Care_Act


    Let this bill go over 1 year through a full process and see what happens. In the meantime, tell us what Obama did to have the debt increase..... you might start with the tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 and through in two wars that were stated at that time while were cut.....

    What caused the national debt? 6 culprits

    ....as for income disparity, the chart in post #11 shows the trend started in the 1970's, but jumped big time during the Reagan administration right after the highest marginal rate was cut. It continued, leveling off during the Clinton administration when marginal rates increased, and became a problem again after Bush Jr cut taxes. Obama has nothing to do with income disparity, except he did not fix it. The bill on the table will only make income disparity worse.

    There is no known study that shows cutting corporate taxes leads to increased wages.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 11-12-17 at 02:33 PM.

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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I am not one of the people to which you speak. You have no basis to make that statement as we are only talking about the current bill. Perhaps (likely) your premise is flawed.

    I would be for tax cuts, across the board, if a) the economy were weak or b) if we were in surplus. Neither is true.

    I also would be for tax reform, but it must be thought out. This is not. Its not tax reform, its a tax cut for which deductions were TAKEN from the middle class as pay fors. The broadening of the standard deduction has some merit, but the loss of deductions means we create winners and losers within the middle class ranks.

    I suggest it is you that is closed minded to what is on the table. This tax plan makes no sense at any level. It is NOT a middle class tax cut, it is NOT stimulative, it is not tax reform, it is NOT necessary in our economy and it is a budget buster. I think you never met a tax cut for which did not approve, regardless of the consequences to the economy and your fellow Americans.

    In order to set up these tax cuts, Republicans passed a budget that cuts $1T from healthcare (Medicare and Medicaid), student loans, the SBA and FEMA. Thus, the net-net of all this is that we have a wealth transfer from the lower 50% to the upper 25%. We already have a wealth disparity problem caused by tax cuts of the 1980's

    Taxes - Top 1% vs. marginal tax rates.jpg

    https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...uts-real-costs

    I did my homework before reaching my conclusions:

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/mo...cut-2017-09-27
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway.../#2a620ed6f5d7
    Trump-GOP Tax Plan: The Biggest Wealth Grab in Modern History | Fortune


    How about you?
    Obviously reading comprehension ain't your thing. This thread isn't about the current tax bill, it's about libs objecting to ANY bill which doesn't punish the rich. You are definitely one of those people.
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

    Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
    Maybe one day they'll actually do something like that and then we'll see.

    As it is, they work for their sponsors and their sponsors want tax cuts.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.
    Why doesn't the GOP try that so we can see?

    Pumping out garbage seems like the only thing they're capable of.

  9. #19
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Just perception, based on observation, but... I suspect that the right could come up with the most awesome tax cut and reform that would be of great benefit to the middle class and the poor, give them virtually everything they want and need, and yet the left would still complain if by chance the wealthy someone got some small benefit, too.

    Lower/middle class get what it needs, left's response is: " ZOMG! More tax cuts for the wealthy! This is so unfair!"
    I ask you, what happens when you lower taxes for the rich.. and they don't use their tax savings to pay their workers better, or they don't reinvest into their business. They don't start another business and create jobs. No. They pocket their tax savings and go relax on a beach in the Caribbean while everyone here suffers the brunt of tax cuts.

    Education takes a hit, our roads take a hit, our quality of living and so forth takes a hit as.. less tax revenue, less money to go around.

    What about close-mindedness again?

    Tell me, should a company that just shipped 8,000 jobs overseas, be entitled to a tax cut?

    Should a bank that made extremely risky bets, who went underwater, be bailed out and not left to fail? If you want these banks to not fail, do they get tax cuts too?


    Well why not? It stimulates the economy. Kiss the rich's ass and maybe they'll shower us all with jobs. A golden shower.. of piss, you're damn right.

    Maybe the rich will BUY stuff, woo hoo! stimulation!

    A: the rich end up buying yachts and german luxury cars, all of those jobs are not in America. So someone is getting a job. And it's not us

    B: many of the rich aren't big spenders anyways, they use their tax savings to invest and make themselves RICHER.

    Why people continue to defend the rich elite when they have seen little to none of their lion's share, I don't understand it. Oh, you own a business and like tax cuts? What happens when big company Walmart comes in, engages in price war (as they can use slave labor in China to make their clothes etc) and puts you out of business.

    Free market. Yay. Now Walmart moves into a small town, sucks all the mom and pop stores up and now they can charge what they want. Not only that, Walmart becomes the largest employer in say, a small town. Now you can't go next door to their competitor who will pay you more or better benefits. Nope. There is no competition. W-Mart pays you nothing because there are no alternatives; in many cases.
    Last edited by NerosGold; 11-12-17 at 04:55 PM.
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    Re: Tax cuts: close-mindedness from the left

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    I am not one of the people to which you speak. You have no basis to make that statement as we are only talking about the current bill.
    This is where I stopped, because no we are not talking about the current bill. I started the thread, I know better than you what the thread is about. My premise is generic. You are free to disagree, but if you do so you will be flat-out wrong.
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