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Anyone Notice Deficits Don't Matter Again?

Back in the days of Pres Carter, the prime rate was ~ 21%. Can you imagine the tax increase we'd have to have to fund out debt at even 18%

A worthy read as to what can go wrong with democrat presidents:

Jimmy Carter's Inferior Years | Human Events

The rate that the Fed sets is not a market thing, it's where they want to set it. That 21% rate was an (ill-advised) attempt to corral inflation caused by the oil crisis, not some rate that the government had to pay to get people to buy its bonds. And this is Fed action, not a political thing. It would have happened no matter who was in office.
 
Nothing for it, huh? You do remember that Obama inherited a near-depression economy where GDP dropped by 8% and unemployment hit 10%, right?

The cause of the additional debt was largely reduced revenue from that near-depression economy.

usgs_line.php


So, I ask this: To avoid this debt that you seem to detest, what should Obama have done to address it? A) cut spending, making the economy worse and cutting social spending just as Americans needed it the most? or; B) raise taxes in a near-depression economy?

I also ask: what do you think about the Trump budget, whose tax-cuts will explode the deficit?

After Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion, no one cares about the deficit, especially you on the left.
 
Overspending adds to the debt.

so just to clear, you're not going to address your silly "misparaphrasing" of my point? You do it enough that I know to be on the lookout for it. If its a simple misunderstanding on your part why not just admit it otherwise some people might think its intentional. Just so you know, I don't think its intentional. I keep track of which conservatives (or conservative like posters) who are simply unable to grasp a point that conflicts with their narratives and the ones that are dishonest. But being honest means you are simply unable to grasp a point that conflicts with your narratives.

Anyhoo, now that we've established that you are simply unable to grasp a point that conflicts with your narratives, I ignore your concerns about debt. "overspending" is simply empty rhetoric that is convenient to your determination to not give democrats credit for lowering the deficit or hold republcans accountable for raising it. Its just a fact that cutting taxes and destroying the economy increase the deficit. Until you hold republicans accountable for that you're simply an obedient partisan hack.
 
After Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion, no one cares about the deficit, especially you on the left.
In the words of Ronald Reagan, "there he goes again." How did Obama double the debt? In other words, what actions did he take that caused the debt to double? (and it wasn't a double -- every time a winger mentions it, it gets bigger.)
 
so just to clear, you're not going to address your silly "misparaphrasing" of my point? You do it enough that I know to be on the lookout for it. If its a simple misunderstanding on your part why not just admit it otherwise some people might think its intentional. Just so you know, I don't think its intentional. I keep track of which conservatives (or conservative like posters) who are simply unable to grasp a point that conflicts with their narratives and the ones that are dishonest. But being honest means you are simply unable to grasp a point that conflicts with your narratives.

Anyhoo, now that we've established that you are simply unable to grasp a point that conflicts with your narratives, I ignore your concerns about debt. "overspending" is simply empty rhetoric that is convenient to your determination to not give democrats credit for lowering the deficit or hold republcans accountable for raising it. Its just a fact that cutting taxes and destroying the economy increase the deficit. Until you hold republicans accountable for that you're simply an obedient partisan hack.

I may be a hack but certainly not a partisan one. I hate political parties.
 
I may be a hack but certainly not a partisan one. I hate political parties.

sorry Fmw, you consistently post conservative narratives and cant grasp simple points that conflict with conservative narratives. You are a partisan hack. You may not do it intentionally but you are clearly a partisan hack. If you feel this claim is in error and does not apply to you then please explain this post. Here's the conservative "nuh uh, the CBO is wrong" narrative. To post it because its the "magic scenario" that justifies what you want to believe is the epitome "partisan hack".

Is it OK for me to disagree with the CBO? If so I do. I think the EO will put obamacare out of business and will ultimately reduce the cost of health insurance. Now if we could reduce the cost of health services we would be on our way to a better situation.

Yea fmw, that's Partisan Hack 101.
 
After Obama doubled the national debt by 10 trillion, no one cares about the deficit, especially you on the left.

After Obama increased the national debt, the economy improved.

After Obama increased the national debt, unemployment went down.

After Obama increased the national debt, the stock market increased by a ton.

After Obama increased the national debt, both interest rates and inflation remained low.

Please explain to those of us on the left again, why should we care about the deficit?
 
He was interested in social justice via changing the nations demographic than he was about letting businesses make money.

And what a failure he was....

fredgraph.png
 
In their rush to push through tax relief, deficits suddenly take a back seat in RebulicanLand.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...3a8e4b077d8dfc9adff?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Funny how that happens. Kind of how the party who demands a 72-hour wait to get an abortion wants no delays for background checks when some nut wants more guns. Hypocrites.

You know deficits on both ends are hollow arguments right?

Every president has contributed to the deficit in some way or the other, so its not going to win any cases here.
 
In their rush to push through tax relief, deficits suddenly take a back seat in RebulicanLand.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...3a8e4b077d8dfc9adff?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

Funny how that happens. Kind of how the party who demands a 72-hour wait to get an abortion wants no delays for background checks when some nut wants more guns. Hypocrites.

I feel like someone has posted this several times already.

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gove...umps-tax-plan-piles-more-than-2-trillion.html
https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...-huge-tax-cuts-wealthy.html?highlight=deficit


But anyway, so what? Democrats and Republicans are hypocrites. What are you telling us that we dont already know? How does this change anything?
 
Please explain to those of us on the left again, why should we care about the deficit?

Large and growing federal debt over the coming decades
would hurt the economy and constrain future budget
policy. The amount of debt that is projected under the
extended baseline would reduce national saving and
income in the long term; increase the government’s interest
costs, putting more pressure on the rest of the budget;
limit lawmakers’ ability to respond to unforeseen events;
and increase the likelihood of a fiscal crisis, an occurrence
in which investors become unwilling to finance a government’s
borrowing unless they are compensated with very
high interest rates.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
 
Large and growing federal debt over the coming decades
would hurt the economy and constrain future budget
policy. The amount of debt that is projected under the
extended baseline would reduce national saving and
income in the long term; increase the government’s interest
costs, putting more pressure on the rest of the budget;
limit lawmakers’ ability to respond to unforeseen events;
and increase the likelihood of a fiscal crisis, an occurrence
in which investors become unwilling to finance a government’s
borrowing unless they are compensated with very
high interest rates.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf

You're a libertarian, so that means there's a strong likelihood that you usually vote for Republicans. Now your answers apparently address the desire for a lower deficit, and you claim that both Republicans and Democrats as hypocrites when it comes to the deficit.

Well, a wise Man once said, "By their actions shall ye know them." So what have been their actions when it comes to the deficit? Let's look:

Reagan: Slashed taxes, and wonder of wonders, the deficit exploded...but he didn't care. Cheney once said, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter"...and Bush 41 called Reagan's "trickle-down" economics by a different name: "Voodoo economics"...because they depended on the magical thinking that lower taxes would somehow result in higher tax revenue.

Bush 41: Took over while we were recovering from the '87-'88 S&L crisis, and faced another recession...and he reacted to that recession by raising taxes against the howls of protest by his party. In my opinion, it was Bush 41 raising taxes (and not any huge move by Clinton) that is largely to credit for our mid-1990's economic boom. Deficits still went up, but at a slower pace than under Reagan.

Clinton: What Clinton did right was to slow down the growth of spending. That, combined with the increased revenue from Bush 41's tax hike and with the dot-com boom, resulted in the first budget surplus since LBJ (which was a questionable surplus, unlike Eisenhower's real surplus). Clinton's surplus was projected to pay off our ENTIRE federal debt by 2012.

Bush 43: Slashed taxes, gave away the surplus, ran two wars (one of which was wholly his fault) and paid for both wars with the national credit card instead of raising taxes as had been the case with ALL previous wars, passed a law that prevented Medicare from being able to negotiate for lower drug prices...and by the time of his last budget (2009), he handed Obama a $1.5 trillion deficit and (in January of 2009) an economy that was bleeding over 700K jobs per month.

Obama: I know, I know, y'all hate him...but by the time he was done, he had cut the deficit by over half, and we had had over seventy consecutive months of private-sector job growth, by FAR the longest such stretch in all American history...an accomplishment that any Republican would give his left nut to be able to claim. YES, the federal debt still doubled...but at least Obama - unlike every other Republican president after Eisenhower - cut the deficit in half.

What's the point for all this? The pattern's obvious - you might not agree with how we "big government" Dems do things, but when it comes to presidents, look at the condition of the economy at the end of their watch: Reagan and Bush 43 were terrible for the deficit and debt, Bush 41 was better (and he was the one who raised taxes)...whereas Clinton and Obama both left the economy in FAR better shape than it was in when they first took office.

Indeed, by their actions shall ye know them.
 
You're a libertarian, so that means there's a strong likelihood that you usually vote for Republicans. Now your answers apparently address the desire for a lower deficit, and you claim that both Republicans and Democrats as hypocrites when it comes to the deficit.

Well, a wise Man once said, "By their actions shall ye know them." So what have been their actions when it comes to the deficit? Let's look:

Reagan: Slashed taxes, and wonder of wonders, the deficit exploded...but he didn't care. Cheney once said, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter"...and Bush 41 called Reagan's "trickle-down" economics by a different name: "Voodoo economics"...because they depended on the magical thinking that lower taxes would somehow result in higher tax revenue.

Bush 41: Took over while we were recovering from the '87-'88 S&L crisis, and faced another recession...and he reacted to that recession by raising taxes against the howls of protest by his party. In my opinion, it was Bush 41 raising taxes (and not any huge move by Clinton) that is largely to credit for our mid-1990's economic boom. Deficits still went up, but at a slower pace than under Reagan.

Clinton: What Clinton did right was to slow down the growth of spending. That, combined with the increased revenue from Bush 41's tax hike and with the dot-com boom, resulted in the first budget surplus since LBJ (which was a questionable surplus, unlike Eisenhower's real surplus). Clinton's surplus was projected to pay off our ENTIRE federal debt by 2012.

Bush 43: Slashed taxes, gave away the surplus, ran two wars (one of which was wholly his fault) and paid for both wars with the national credit card instead of raising taxes as had been the case with ALL previous wars, passed a law that prevented Medicare from being able to negotiate for lower drug prices...and by the time of his last budget (2009), he handed Obama a $1.5 trillion deficit and (in January of 2009) an economy that was bleeding over 700K jobs per month.

Obama: I know, I know, y'all hate him...but by the time he was done, he had cut the deficit by over half, and we had had over seventy consecutive months of private-sector job growth, by FAR the longest such stretch in all American history...an accomplishment that any Republican would give his left nut to be able to claim. YES, the federal debt still doubled...but at least Obama - unlike every other Republican president after Eisenhower - cut the deficit in half.

What's the point for all this? The pattern's obvious - you might not agree with how we "big government" Dems do things, but when it comes to presidents, look at the condition of the economy at the end of their watch: Reagan and Bush 43 were terrible for the deficit and debt, Bush 41 was better (and he was the one who raised taxes)...whereas Clinton and Obama both left the economy in FAR better shape than it was in when they first took office.

Indeed, by their actions shall ye know them.

I never vote for Republicans. And Im not sure how the talking points you posted is relevant to what you quoted.
 
I never vote for Republicans. And Im not sure how the talking points you posted is relevant to what you quoted.

If you never vote Republican, then when it comes to libertarians, you are in a significant minority. It's a bit dated, but from the Cato Institute:

Our data show that libertarians have generally voted Republican-66 percent for Ronald Reagan in 1980, 74 percent for George H. W. Bush in 1988, and 72 percent for George W. Bush in 2000. But they are not diehard Republicans. John Anderson and Libertarian Party candidate Ed Clark got 17 percent of the libertarian vote in 1980, and Ross Perot took 33 percent of the libertarians in 1992.
 
Large and growing federal debt over the coming decades
would hurt the economy and constrain future budget
policy. The amount of debt that is projected under the
extended baseline would reduce national saving and
income in the long term; increase the government’s interest
costs, putting more pressure on the rest of the budget;
limit lawmakers’ ability to respond to unforeseen events;
and increase the likelihood of a fiscal crisis, an occurrence
in which investors become unwilling to finance a government’s
borrowing unless they are compensated with very
high interest rates.

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf

The CBO has been wrong many times before, and they are wrong again. I know that argument won't hold much water with you, but the CBO has been crying about the growing debt for almost 40 years now, and they haven't been right yet. (During the Clinton surpluses, didn't they predict that the national debt would be gone in 15-20 years?)

*The economy hasn't been hurt by the debt.
*The budget certainly hasn't been constrained by the debt.
*"National saving" is actually not a good thing.
*Lawmakers' ability to respond to unforeseen events has not been hampered. See 2008.
*The fiscal crisis of 2008 was due to private debt, and it was fixed by government action. And the Fed never broke a sweat in the process.
*The present low, low interest rates demonstrate pretty clearly that investors aren't scared away by a large national debt.

So there it is. You can stick blindly with what the CBO says (until somebody uses their work against you), or you can look at the actual data.
 
During the Clinton surpluses, didn't they predict that the national debt would be gone in 15-20 years?
The CBO said that "under current policy" the debt would be paid off by 2005 (by memory). However, the policy was changed under Bush and surpluses were spent and deficits returned.
 
The CBO said that "under current policy" the debt would be paid off by 2005 (by memory). However, the policy was changed under Bush and surpluses were spent and deficits returned.

But whether or not the policy was changed, paying off the debt is an impossibility. That's something the CBO is either unaware of, or else they are too constrained by their rules to ever come to such a conclusion. "Current policy" was never going to claw back bonds from foreign holders, or even domestic holders.

That's when I stopped listening to what the CBO had to say.
 
If you never vote Republican, then when it comes to libertarians, you are in a significant minority. It's a bit dated, but from the Cato Institute:

Our data show that libertarians have generally voted Republican-66 percent for Ronald Reagan in 1980, 74 percent for George H. W. Bush in 1988, and 72 percent for George W. Bush in 2000. But they are not diehard Republicans. John Anderson and Libertarian Party candidate Ed Clark got 17 percent of the libertarian vote in 1980, and Ross Perot took 33 percent of the libertarians in 1992.

Again, not sure what this has to do with what I posted or the topic.
 
The CBO said that "under current policy" the debt would be paid off by 2005 (by memory). However, the policy was changed under Bush and surpluses were spent and deficits returned.

Heck if just surpluses were spent, we would have a balanced budget. What actually happened was a bubble burst, congress cut taxes, AND increased spending (up to 19.4% of GDP). Just one of those things, we would have been fine.
 
The CBO has been wrong many times before, and they are wrong again. I know that argument won't hold much water with you, but the CBO has been crying about the growing debt for almost 40 years now, and they haven't been right yet. (During the Clinton surpluses, didn't they predict that the national debt would be gone in 15-20 years?)

*The economy hasn't been hurt by the debt.
*The budget certainly hasn't been constrained by the debt.
*"National saving" is actually not a good thing.
*Lawmakers' ability to respond to unforeseen events has not been hampered. See 2008.
*The fiscal crisis of 2008 was due to private debt, and it was fixed by government action. And the Fed never broke a sweat in the process.
*The present low, low interest rates demonstrate pretty clearly that investors aren't scared away by a large national debt.

So there it is. You can stick blindly with what the CBO says (until somebody uses their work against you), or you can look at the actual data.

The data says theyre right. Economic growth is slow, interest is putting pressure on the rest of the budget, inflation is high, and deficits are a political problem leading to shutdowns, sequestors, cuts in defense spending. Every decision now requires a long debate. The fed will be raising interest rates this year and next which means our interest costs are going to skyrocket. That means more taxes being sent to foreign countries instead of left in the pockets of americans who created it.
 
The data says theyre right. Economic growth is slow, interest is putting pressure on the rest of the budget, inflation is high, and deficits are a political problem leading to shutdowns, sequestors, cuts in defense spending. Every decision now requires a long debate. The fed will be raising interest rates this year and next which means our interest costs are going to skyrocket. That means more taxes being sent to foreign countries instead of left in the pockets of americans who created it.

Interest is putting pressure on what?? We hide more in the military budget than we spend on interest.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/06/us-military-budget-is-actually-250-billion-higher.aspx

Inflation is WHAT?? We've been below about 5% since the early 80s, and below 2% for most of the past decade.

Deficits are a political problem?? Meh. How many shutdowns in the past decade? Two? Big whoop.

And IF the fed actually raises rates again, it'll be another quarter or half percent and we might hit 3% by 2019. ERMAHGERD!!! 3-FRIGGIN-PERCENT!! OHNOES!!

"The current federal funds rate is 1.25 percent. The Federal Reserve expects to raise the rate once in 2017, to 1.5 percent. It signaled it will raise rates to 2 percent in 2018 and 3 percent in 2019."
https://www.thebalance.com/current-federal-reserve-interest-rates-3305694

OMG, please, just stahp.
 
Interest is putting pressure on what?? We hide more in the military budget than we spend on interest.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/05/06/us-military-budget-is-actually-250-billion-higher.aspx

Inflation is WHAT?? We've been below about 5% since the early 80s, and below 2% for most of the past decade.

Deficits are a political problem?? Meh. How many shutdowns in the past decade? Two? Big whoop.

And IF the fed actually raises rates again, it'll be another quarter or half percent and we might hit 3% by 2019. ERMAHGERD!!! 3-FRIGGIN-PERCENT!! OHNOES!!

"The current federal funds rate is 1.25 percent. The Federal Reserve expects to raise the rate once in 2017, to 1.5 percent. It signaled it will raise rates to 2 percent in 2018 and 3 percent in 2019."
https://www.thebalance.com/current-federal-reserve-interest-rates-3305694

OMG, please, just stahp.

If youre going to be uncivil, I will.
 
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