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What exactly is Tax Reform?

MrWonka

MrWonka

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And why do we actually need it?

Obviously, the Republican parties so-called "Tax Reform" bill is not Tax Reform at all. It's just a giveaway to millionaires and billionaires and corporations who don't need it for any reason. But what the **** is tax reform anyway? The only thing our tax code really needs in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what Republicans are trying to do to it.

As far as I've seen the only "reforms" that might make sense are the elimination of some loopholes that allow millionaires and billionaires to skirt their obligations.

Let me just add, the fair tax, and the flat tax are both idiotic ideas. They may simplify our tax code, but they don't improve it. They are terrible ideas that shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.
 
MrWonka said:
And why do we actually need it?

Obviously, the Republican parties so-called "Tax Reform" bill is not Tax Reform at all. It's just a giveaway to millionaires and billionaires and corporations who don't need it for any reason. But what the **** is tax reform anyway? The only thing our tax code really needs in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what Republicans are trying to do to it.

As far as I've seen the only "reforms" that might make sense are the elimination of some loopholes that allow millionaires and billionaires to skirt their obligations.

Let me just add, the fair tax, and the flat tax are both idiotic ideas. They may simplify our tax code, but they don't improve it. They are terrible ideas that shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.
Click to expand...

That's the goal, to increase our subsidizing of Wall Street and the donor/"job creator" class and shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.
 
Fenton Lum said:
That's the goal, to increase our subsidizing of Wall Street and the donor/"job creator" class and shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.
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Yes, because 47% of working Americans pay no Federal Income tax at all, it’s definitely shifted to them. Why their Federal income taxes are probably going up 50%!
 
MrWonka said:
And why do we actually need it?
Click to expand...
In a perfect world, tax reform is a periodic adjustment to the tax system, to make it more efficient and fair.

In practice, as noted, it's usually an excuse to slash taxes for the rich.

In all fairness, that's because the wealthy generally pay more in taxes anyway. Low income earners already get substantial tax breaks, so there isn't much more of a break to give them. If your household earns $100k/yr, and you pay $25k in taxes, a 10% cut in your tax rate only saves you $2.5k. But if you earn $1 million a year, and pay $250k in taxes, that same 10% break saves you $25k. Even if we gave those earners only a 5% break, you're still saving $12.5k. Thus, the wealthy almost always benefit more from an across-the-board tax cut.

(I'd note that the Trump tax policy unfairly favors the wealthy, mostly because it provides a massive loophole for the rich. The top marginal tax rate for upper incomes is around 35% or so; but if you set up an LLC, and pass your income through it, all that income will be taxed at 20% instead. That is much less fair than lowering the top marginal tax rate by a few points... which his plan also does.)

In the US, tax reform could be useful to simplify the tax code, make it a little easier to file taxes, encourage businesses to repatriate foreign income, and get the US more in line with other nations' tax codes. A well-crafted plan could get broad support.

Unfortunately, even under more optimal conditions, getting legislators to agree on that is nearly impossible. As soon as we start talking about tax reform, lobbyists pounce on legislators to either maintain certain tax structures beneficial to their clients, or to enact new tax cuts their clients want.


So yes, we could use genuine tax reform, but we are probably not going to get changes that are more efficient and more fair. And given the dysfunction in Congress and the sheer ineptitude of Trump, it may not happen at all.
 
First of all, repeal the 16th amendment, then cut the Federal Government back to its ORIGINAL MANDATES as spelled out in the Constitution. There's tax reform for ya.
 
MaggieD said:
Yes, because 47% of working Americans pay no Federal Income tax at all, it’s definitely shifted to them. Why their Federal income taxes are probably going up 50%!
Click to expand...


Half of US wage earners drag home less than $30K now, in THIS economic system. Let's redistribute more societal wealth to Wall Street and the donor/"job creator" class, they need more subsidizing than they already receive.
 
Bassman said:
First of all, repeal the 16th amendment, then cut the Federal Government back to its ORIGINAL MANDATES as spelled out in the Constitution. There's tax reform for ya.
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Or we could stop our military occupation of the planet.
 
MrWonka said:
And why do we actually need it?

Obviously, the Republican parties so-called "Tax Reform" bill is not Tax Reform at all. It's just a giveaway to millionaires and billionaires and corporations who don't need it for any reason. But what the **** is tax reform anyway? The only thing our tax code really needs in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what Republicans are trying to do to it.

As far as I've seen the only "reforms" that might make sense are the elimination of some loopholes that allow millionaires and billionaires to skirt their obligations.

Let me just add, the fair tax, and the flat tax are both idiotic ideas. They may simplify our tax code, but they don't improve it. They are terrible ideas that shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.
Click to expand...

Really. How very interesting. How ever did you come up with that?
 
MaggieD said:
Yes, because 47% of working Americans pay no Federal Income tax at all, it’s definitely shifted to them. Why their Federal income taxes are probably going up 50%!
Click to expand...

Most of that is the result of Republican policies...the same people who use that as a talking point.
 
MrWonka said:
And why do we actually need it?

Obviously, the Republican parties so-called "Tax Reform" bill is not Tax Reform at all. It's just a giveaway to millionaires and billionaires and corporations who don't need it for any reason. But what the **** is tax reform anyway? The only thing our tax code really needs in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what Republicans are trying to do to it.

As far as I've seen the only "reforms" that might make sense are the elimination of some loopholes that allow millionaires and billionaires to skirt their obligations.

Let me just add, the fair tax, and the flat tax are both idiotic ideas. They may simplify our tax code, but they don't improve it. They are terrible ideas that shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.
Click to expand...

Well.. you are wrong about the flat tax..

but whatever.. your mind is made up.
 
Visbek said:
In a perfect world, tax reform is a periodic adjustment to the tax system, to make it more efficient and fair.

In practice, as noted, it's usually an excuse to slash taxes for the rich.

In all fairness, that's because the wealthy generally pay more in taxes anyway. Low income earners already get substantial tax breaks, so there isn't much more of a break to give them. If your household earns $100k/yr, and you pay $25k in taxes, a 10% cut in your tax rate only saves you $2.5k. But if you earn $1 million a year, and pay $250k in taxes, that same 10% break saves you $25k. Even if we gave those earners only a 5% break, you're still saving $12.5k. Thus, the wealthy almost always benefit more from an across-the-board tax cut.

(I'd note that the Trump tax policy unfairly favors the wealthy, mostly because it provides a massive loophole for the rich. The top marginal tax rate for upper incomes is around 35% or so; but if you set up an LLC, and pass your income through it, all that income will be taxed at 20% instead. That is much less fair than lowering the top marginal tax rate by a few points... which his plan also does.)

In the US, tax reform could be useful to simplify the tax code, make it a little easier to file taxes, encourage businesses to repatriate foreign income, and get the US more in line with other nations' tax codes. A well-crafted plan could get broad support.

Unfortunately, even under more optimal conditions, getting legislators to agree on that is nearly impossible. As soon as we start talking about tax reform, lobbyists pounce on legislators to either maintain certain tax structures beneficial to their clients, or to enact new tax cuts their clients want.


So yes, we could use genuine tax reform, but we are probably not going to get changes that are more efficient and more fair. And given the dysfunction in Congress and the sheer ineptitude of Trump, it may not happen at all.
Click to expand...

Actually there have been well thought out proposals.. to simplify taxes.

When you think about it.. why do we have to calculate our own tax burden.. submit it to the IRS.. and then get punished if later its decided we calculate it wrong.

That's like ordering a pizza.. and they pizza guy making you guess what you have to pay.. and then you get arrested if you didn;t calculate enough to pay.

The government already has most of everyones tax information.. they have your income, contributions etc.. already on file.. so the government COULD simply calculate your tax burden.. send you a bill or a check.. come tax time.. and off you go. If you did not think that your bill was calculated correctly.. THEN you could submit a filing to have your tax burden adjusted.

And the government would then have the burden of proof. Not the citizen.

for tens of millions this would make paying taxes so much easier.. use less IRS. etc.. and would probably stop a lot of tax cheating.

But this proposal never makes it out of committee in congress.. and that's because the tax preparation lobby.. lobby's hard to prevent it from happening.
 
MaggieD said:
Yes, because 47% of working Americans pay no Federal Income tax at all,
Click to expand...

I think you mean 47% of Americans. Not working Americans. Most of the people you are using for that statistic are elderly people who have no taxable income.
 
jaeger19 said:
Actually there have been well thought out proposals.. to simplify taxes.

When you think about it.. why do we have to calculate our own tax burden.. submit it to the IRS.. and then get punished if later its decided we calculate it wrong.

That's like ordering a pizza.. and they pizza guy making you guess what you have to pay.. and then you get arrested if you didn;t calculate enough to pay.

The government already has most of everyones tax information.. they have your income, contributions etc.. already on file.. so the government COULD simply calculate your tax burden.. send you a bill or a check.. come tax time.. and off you go. If you did not think that your bill was calculated correctly.. THEN you could submit a filing to have your tax burden adjusted.

And the government would then have the burden of proof. Not the citizen.

for tens of millions this would make paying taxes so much easier.. use less IRS. etc.. and would probably stop a lot of tax cheating.

But this proposal never makes it out of committee in congress.. and that's because the tax preparation lobby.. lobby's hard to prevent it from happening.
Click to expand...

Actually I have heard of this now that you mention it, and I would completely support it, but I don't think it's actually the tax preparation lobby that's stopping it. It's wealthy people who like to fudge things and hope the IRS doesn't choose to audit them. While the IRS has a pretty good idea about what most of use owe, they generally don't bother auditing your return closely if you're in the ball park. They don't have enough people to manually go through 300 million returns.

There's also the reality that this would almost certainly make certain write offs hard if not impossible to deal with. Donations to charity for instance. Is Goodwill going to need your social security number so they can send the receipt for your donation to the IRS directly instead of letting you do it?
 
jaeger19 said:
Actually there have been well thought out proposals.. to simplify taxes.

When you think about it.. why do we have to calculate our own tax burden.. submit it to the IRS.. and then get punished if later its decided we calculate it wrong.
Click to expand...
Yep, you're correct. I forgot about that one. Probably because it works in Europe, but as you noted, it's a non-starter in the US. ;)
 
MrWonka said:
Actually I have heard of this now that you mention it, and I would completely support it, but I don't think it's actually the tax preparation lobby that's stopping it.
Click to expand...
It is.

Intuit in particular has lobbied directly against that type of system.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/...-tax-preparer-intuit-has-a-favorite.html?_r=0

Wealth filers and conservatives can't complain about it, because you still have the option to prepare your own taxes. But it would wipe out services oriented towards the middle class, which is Intuit's bread and butter.
 
MrWonka said:
No, you just don't have a decent argument, and you know it.
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Sure I do.


You just don't want to listen to it.

Lets say a flat tax of 18% with a standard deduction of 50,000 dollars.

no other deductions (I could be persuaded perhaps with charity). All income treated the same.

Go.
 
Visbek said:
It is.

Intuit in particular has lobbied directly against that type of system.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/...-tax-preparer-intuit-has-a-favorite.html?_r=0

Wealth filers and conservatives can't complain about it, because you still have the option to prepare your own taxes. But it would wipe out services oriented towards the middle class, which is Intuit's bread and butter.
Click to expand...

in fact.. conservatives like myself would definitely not complain about it. It puts the government on the hook for the burden of proof. They have to show what information they have on me... rather than I having to show all my information to them.
If they say.. leave off that I made 1500 from a sale of a single cow at market,,.. I don't get dinged.

If I now forget/lose the receipt that I sold a single cow (cuz I got tired of her being breachy) , The irs can ding me for a simple mistake.
 
MrWonka said:
Actually I have heard of this now that you mention it, and I would completely support it, but I don't think it's actually the tax preparation lobby that's stopping it. It's wealthy people who like to fudge things and hope the IRS doesn't choose to audit them. While the IRS has a pretty good idea about what most of use owe, they generally don't bother auditing your return closely if you're in the ball park. They don't have enough people to manually go through 300 million returns.

There's also the reality that this would almost certainly make certain write offs hard if not impossible to deal with. Donations to charity for instance. Is Goodwill going to need your social security number so they can send the receipt for your donation to the IRS directly instead of letting you do it?
Click to expand...

nope.. its actually the tax preparers that are against itl.

for the wealthy.. the IRS would have to show what information they have regarding our income.. not the other way around.

And it would still allow us to take itemized deductions.

And if you have enough write offs that you can itemize.. then you can choose to do so.. just like you do now.
 
jaeger19 said:
Sure I do.


You just don't want to listen to it.

Lets say a flat tax of 18% with a standard deduction of 50,000 dollars.

no other deductions (I could be persuaded perhaps with charity). All income treated the same.

Go.
Click to expand...

Are capital gains and inheritance income to be taxed as such?
 
haymarket said:
Are capital gains and inheritance income to be taxed as such?
Click to expand...

Yes..on the capital gains.

I would change that companies can deduct from their income dividends that they pay to shareholders (ending the double taxation.. and encouraging dividends as a way to make money rather than manipulation of share prices).

Inheritance tax? Hmmm.. I think I would be inclined to keep that the same. I think that the inheritance tax works to get wealthy to do estate planning and to divest themselves of property and possessions earlier which helps business remain stable..

I would also keep corporation taxation the same.. (other than the dividend thing).. that's a separate issue that needs to be dealt with differently.
 
iliveonramen said:
Most of that is the result of Republican policies...the same people who use that as a talking point.
Click to expand...

Well, it’s about time someone very liberal gave Repubs credit for so,etching. Or you thinking I said, as is more LIKELY the case, that the 47% paying nothing will see a 50% increase? ‘Cause 50% of zero is zero. Which is it?
 
MrWonka said:
I think you mean 47% of Americans. Not working Americans. Most of the people you are using for that statistic are elderly people who have no taxable income.
Click to expand...

You’re right...here...

Roughly half pay no federal income tax because they have no taxable income, and the other roughly half get enough tax breaks to erase their tax liability, explains Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center.
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And it’s 43.something percent. I got something right. The word something. ;)
 
MaggieD said:
Well, it’s about time someone very liberal gave Repubs credit for so,etching. Or you thinking I said, as is more LIKELY the case, that the 47% paying nothing will see a 50% increase? ‘Cause 50% of zero is zero. Which is it?
Click to expand...

There are definitely people that pay state/city taxes that paid no Federal Income tax but will pay if deductions are removed.

Also, I'm not sure the quote, but if it's Federal taxes, people pay federal taxes that pay 0 federal income tax.
 
MaggieD said:
Yes, because 47% of working Americans pay no Federal Income tax at all, it’s definitely shifted to them. Why their Federal income taxes are probably going up 50%!
Click to expand...


That will be a terrific source of revenue for the corporate state class given that over half of wage earners in the US drag home less that $30K a year in an economic system based upon mass consumption. Let the predation expand, we already trail the advanced world in economic mobility. Long live the corporate state predator class. American style "capitalism" and Soviet style "communism" are merely divergent paths to the same ultimate destination wherein all access to political power and redistributed societal wealth lies in the hands of a privileged criminal class few at the top. No wonder the US has to export its economic system globally via militarized mass violence.
 
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