What exactly is Tax Reform?

MrWonka · Oct 20, 2017

jaeger19 said:
Sure I do.

You just don't want to listen to it.

Lets say a flat tax of 18% with a standard deduction of 50,000 dollars.

no other deductions (I could be persuaded perhaps with charity). All income treated the same.

Go.

So you're saying everyone making less than $50,000 pays zero tax, and everyone else pays 18% on everything they make above and beyond that?

jonny5 · Oct 20, 2017

MrWonka said:
And why do we actually need it?

Obviously, the Republican parties so-called "Tax Reform" bill is not Tax Reform at all. It's just a giveaway to millionaires and billionaires and corporations who don't need it for any reason. But what the **** is tax reform anyway? The only thing our tax code really needs in my opinion is exactly the opposite of what Republicans are trying to do to it.

As far as I've seen the only "reforms" that might make sense are the elimination of some loopholes that allow millionaires and billionaires to skirt their obligations.

Let me just add, the fair tax, and the flat tax are both idiotic ideas. They may simplify our tax code, but they don't improve it. They are terrible ideas that shift the financial burdens of our country down to the poor and middle class who can least afford it.

So, to you, tax reform is 'soak the rich?'

jonny5 · Oct 20, 2017

jaeger19 said:
Actually there have been well thought out proposals.. to simplify taxes.

When you think about it.. why do we have to calculate our own tax burden.. submit it to the IRS.. and then get punished if later its decided we calculate it wrong.

That's like ordering a pizza.. and they pizza guy making you guess what you have to pay.. and then you get arrested if you didn;t calculate enough to pay.

The government already has most of everyones tax information.. they have your income, contributions etc.. already on file.. so the government COULD simply calculate your tax burden.. send you a bill or a check.. come tax time.. and off you go. If you did not think that your bill was calculated correctly.. THEN you could submit a filing to have your tax burden adjusted.

And the government would then have the burden of proof. Not the citizen.

for tens of millions this would make paying taxes so much easier.. use less IRS. etc.. and would probably stop a lot of tax cheating.

But this proposal never makes it out of committee in congress.. and that's because the tax preparation lobby.. lobby's hard to prevent it from happening.

So what youre saying is its because of the people who vote in congress members who listen to the tax prep lobby? I mean, the lobby cant force a congress person to vote a certain way. So a congress person is choosing to vote a certain way, the voters either know about it and dont care, or are ignorant and dont care, and keep voting them back into office.

MrWonka · Oct 20, 2017

jonny5 said:
So, to you, tax reform is 'soak the rich?'

No, it is to eliminate stupid loopholes that they use to get out of paying the actual burden they're already supposed to be paying.

jaeger19 · Oct 20, 2017

MrWonka said:
So you're saying everyone making less than $50,000 pays zero tax, and everyone else pays 18% on everything they make above and beyond that?

Yep.. zero income tax.

jonny5 · Oct 20, 2017

MrWonka said:
No, it is to eliminate stupid loopholes that they use to get out of paying the actual burden they're already supposed to be paying.

For example? And would you support eliminating similar loopholes on all tax payers or just the rich? Also, who do you consider rich?

MrWonka · Oct 20, 2017

jonny5 said:
For example? And would you support eliminating similar loopholes on all tax payers or just the rich? Also, who do you consider rich?

Sure, but I think you'll find almost every single solitary such loophole is exploited almost exclusively by the wealthy.

Here's a brief list of some of the worst offenders.

https://www.salon.com/2013/04/12/10_tax_dodges_that_help_the_rich_get_richer_partner/

jaeger19 · Oct 20, 2017

MrWonka said:
Sure, but I think you'll find almost every single solitary such loophole is exploited almost exclusively by the wealthy.

Here's a brief list of some of the worst offenders.

https://www.salon.com/2013/04/12/10_tax_dodges_that_help_the_rich_get_richer_partner/

I think you will find that its not true.

JasperL · Oct 20, 2017

MrWonka said:
Actually I have heard of this now that you mention it, and I would completely support it, but I don't think it's actually the tax preparation lobby that's stopping it. It's wealthy people who like to fudge things and hope the IRS doesn't choose to audit them. While the IRS has a pretty good idea about what most of use owe, they generally don't bother auditing your return closely if you're in the ball park. They don't have enough people to manually go through 300 million returns.

There's also the reality that this would almost certainly make certain write offs hard if not impossible to deal with. Donations to charity for instance. Is Goodwill going to need your social security number so they can send the receipt for your donation to the IRS directly instead of letting you do it?

He's right - the tax prep lobby, or more accurately the short term refund anticipation loan lobby wields some power and they're VERY against the plan. They need people confused by taxes to come in, get a 3 minute return completed, so they're targeted for loans with huge fees. It's a profitable and IMO sordid business, and they want to protect it.

All the proposals make this optional. It would be simple enough to send an online link and people can fill in charity or something, or opt out altogether.

jonny5 · Oct 21, 2017

MrWonka said:
Sure, but I think you'll find almost every single solitary such loophole is exploited almost exclusively by the wealthy.

Here's a brief list of some of the worst offenders.

https://www.salon.com/2013/04/12/10_tax_dodges_that_help_the_rich_get_richer_partner/

As expected, much of that are not actually loopholes, but intended deductions or income classification. Even so, if youre willing to get rid of all deductions for everyone, Im all for it too. Tax reform should mean simplicity and fairness. Eliminate all deductions, set one flat tax rate and we're done.

MTAtech · Oct 23, 2017

jonny5 said:
For example? And would you support eliminating similar loopholes on all tax payers or just the rich? Also, who do you consider rich?

The main elements of the plan Trump floated will allow rich people cut ins top individual tax rates; a cut in corporate taxes; an end to the estate tax; and the creation of a big new loophole that will allow wealthy individuals to pretend that they are small businesses, and get a preferential tax rate. It’s not difficult to see how the plan is tilted toward the very top.

MrWonka · Oct 23, 2017

jonny5 said:
As expected, much of that are not actually loopholes, but intended deductions or income classification. Even so, if youre willing to get rid of all deductions for everyone, Im all for it too. Tax reform should mean simplicity and fairness. Eliminate all deductions, set one flat tax rate and we're done.

Many deductions are useful in that they encourage people to do good things that benefit society as a whole. Deductions for the interest paid on student loans, buying a home, charity..... Unfortunately the wealthy have managed to get some deductions included in our tax code, that they think benefits society as a whole because they delusionally believe that wealthy business owners create jobs. That is false which is why they are nothing but bull**** loophole giveaways. I'm fine with most of the loopholes that encourage smart decisions, but almost all of those benefit the middle class more than anything.

jonny5 · Oct 24, 2017

MrWonka said:
Many deductions are useful in that they encourage people to do good things that benefit society as a whole. Deductions for the interest paid on student loans, buying a home, charity..... Unfortunately the wealthy have managed to get some deductions included in our tax code, that they think benefits society as a whole because they delusionally believe that wealthy business owners create jobs. That is false which is why they are nothing but bull**** loophole giveaways. I'm fine with most of the loopholes that encourage smart decisions, but almost all of those benefit the middle class more than anything.

So again, tax reform, to you, is all about making the rich pay more taxes.

jonny5 · Oct 24, 2017

MTAtech said:
The main elements of the plan Trump floated will allow rich people cut ins top individual tax rates; a cut in corporate taxes; an end to the estate tax; and the creation of a big new loophole that will allow wealthy individuals to pretend that they are small businesses, and get a preferential tax rate. It’s not difficult to see how the plan is tilted toward the very top.

G]

Not sure how that answers the questions you quoted.

MrWonka · Oct 24, 2017

jonny5 said:
So again, tax reform, to you, is all about making the rich pay more taxes.

No, we don't need reform for that. We just need to adjust the %. That's my point, it does not reform at all.

jonny5 · Oct 24, 2017

MrWonka said:
No, we don't need reform for that. We just need to adjust the %. That's my point, it does not reform at all.

Especially if you dont remove all those loopholes for everyone. So again, tax reform, to you, means getting rid of the only the ways the rich avoid taxes. Thats half assed reform.