If you're wondering what the problem is..

I don't know if anyone has already brought this up before, but I haven't seen anything about it in the recent posts, but the issue is simple really. We have a fiat currency and the problem with fiat currency is that it always returns to it's original value, which is zero. That's why the more money that the FED pumps into circulation, the more we see an inflation in prices and the value of the dollar continues to go down. It doesn't matter what the Government spends this money on. It could be war, social programs, infrastructure, doesn't matter. As long as they keep borrowing/printing for whatever cause, our economy will continue to deteriorate. What we really need is a new currency altogether. One that is actually backed by SOMETHING so inflation doesn't run rampant and we don't end up with these outrageous, unnatural bubbles in the market place. The system we have now is mathematically guaranteed to fail.


Also, I don't see how people aren't utterly enraged at how the government does business. Doesn't matter if you're democrat, republican, libertarian, or whatever else, but the fact that people are FORCED to pay for causes they might be strongly against through taxation is a huge red flag that there is something fundamentally wrong with government. And I love when the media says stuff like "We owe China billions or trillions of dollars!" and I'm just sitting there like "Um, YOU owe China trillions of dollars. I owe Verizon 90 dollars". A lot of these politicians make side deals and agreements with other countries/corporations without the full consent of the American people, but guess who's left picking up the bill? I don't believe people should be coerced into paying for a debt that isn't theirs. Again, I'm just baffled at how people aren't borderline ready to raze this crooked government because I know if it was some average joe like a neighbor or something screwing people over in his community, they'd raise hell trying to get restitution from that guy, But I guess a fancy suit and government title changes the perception for some folks.

TaxationIsTheft said:

We have a fiat currency and the problem with fiat currency is that it always returns to it's original value, which is zero.

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False, baseless assertion devoid of fact. Fiat currencies have existed for a very long time, and most hold their value just fine.

/thread

I would start with my circle of control and work my way out ...

Example: resolve the Verizon bill first and why it's 90 dollars, then work your way out from there.

Once you've taken care of everything that matters to you within your circle of control, then you can find time to be outraged US owing China Trillions.

Just my way of keeping my Blood Pressure at an Normal Place,

MrWonka said:

False, baseless assertion devoid of fact. Fiat currencies have existed for a very long time, and most hold their value just fine.

/thread

Click to expand...

You probably should do a little more research. It's not a baseless argument at all. The history of fiat money, to put it kindly, has been one of failure. In fact, EVERY fiat currency since the Romans first began the practice in the first century has ended in devaluation and eventual collapse, of not only the currency, but of the economy that housed the fiat currency as well.

Here are a few examples if you don't believe me.

1. Although Rome didn’t actually have paper money, it provided one of the first examples of true debasement of a currency. The denarius, Rome’s coinage of the time, was, essentially, pure silver at the beginning of the first century A.D. By A.D. 54, Emperor Nero had entered the scene, and the denarius was approximately 94% silver. By around A.D.100, the denarius’ silver content was down to 85%.

Emperors that succeeded Nero liked the idea of devaluing their currency in order to pay the bills and increase their own wealth. By 218, the denarius was down to 43% silver, and in 244, Emperor Philip the Arab had the silver content dropped to 0.05%. Around the time of Rome’s collapse, the denarius contained only 0.02% silver and virtually nobody accepted it as a medium of exchange or a store of value.

2. During Kublai Khan's rule of China, his paper currency drove China's economy into disaster. At first during his rule population and trade had greatly increased, but the emissions of paper notes were suffered to largely outrun both…All the beneficial effects of a currency that is allowed to expand with a growth of population and trade were now turned into those evil effects that flow from a currency emitted in excess of such growth. These effects were not slow to develop themselves…The best families in the empire were ruined, a new set of men came into the control of public affairs, and the country became the scene of internecine warfare and confusion.

3. The French have been particularly unsuccessful in their attempts with fiat money.

John Law was the first man to introduce paper money to France. The notion of paper money was greatly helped along by the passing of Louis XIV and the 3 billion livres of debt that he left.

When Louis XV was old enough to make his own mistakes, he required that all taxes be paid in paper money. The currency was backed by coinage…until people actually wanted coins.

The theme of the day…the new paper currency rapidly became oversupplied until nobody wished to own the worthless junk anymore and demanded coinage for their currency.




In recent times, fiat failures have become more common occurrences. For the sake of time, I won’t go into extensive details of all these examples of paper money failures, because there are SO many. But here you have it:

In 1932, Argentina had the eighth largest economy in the world before its currency collapsed. In 1992, Finland, Italy, and Norway had currency shocks that spread through Europe.

In 1994, Mexico went through the infamous “Tequila Hangover,” which sent the peso tumbling and spread economic hardships throughout Latin America.

In 1997, the Thai baht fell through the floor and the effects spread to Malaysia, the Philippines, Indonesia, Hong Kong, and South Korea.

The Russian ruble was not the currency you wanted your investments denominated in in 1998, after its devaluation brought on economic recession. In the early 21st century, we have seen the Turkish lira experience strokes of hyperinflation similar to that of the mark of Weimar Germany.

In present times, we have Zimbabwe, which was once considered the breadbasket of Africa and was one of the wealthiest countries on the continent. Now Mugabe’s attempts at price controls, combined with hyperinflation, have the nation unable to supply the most basic essentials such as bread and clean water.


Our currency's fate won't be any different. It just might take a bit longer since this is the first time in history that we've had a global fiat currency so you can only imagine that when that bubble pops, it's gonna be like some kind of economic holocaust.

Oh! I almost forgot to add Venezuela to that list! Another recent and great example of why fiat currency does not bode well for economies. They don't even count their money anymore. They weigh it in wheel barrels because its so worthless now.

TaxationIsTheft said:

You probably should do a little more research. It's not a baseless argument at all. The history of fiat money, to put it kindly, has been one of failure. In fact, EVERY fiat currency since the Romans first began the practice in the first century has ended in devaluation and eventual collapse, of not only the currency, but of the economy that housed the fiat currency as well.

....

Click to expand...

And EVERY species except the ones still in existence has gone extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction
"More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[1] that ever lived on Earth are ... extinct."

And every human being eventually dies. It's not a failure of the system, per se, it's just how things work.

TaxationIsTheft said:

You probably should do a little more research. It's not a baseless argument at all. The history of fiat money, to put it kindly, has been one of failure. In fact, EVERY fiat currency since the Romans first began the practice in the first century has ended in devaluation and eventual collapse, of not only the currency, but of the economy that housed the fiat currency as well...

Our currency's fate won't be any different. It just might take a bit longer since this is the first time in history that we've had a global fiat currency so you can only imagine that when that bubble pops, it's gonna be like some kind of economic holocaust.

Click to expand...

This is how I see it:

Fiat currency's value holds only so long as people's faith in the government who issued it remains strong.

However, it typically decreases in value as more is printed to meet the "needs" of wealthy investment interests and the government to pay it's increasing costs.

The more money printed, the more demanded in exchange for goods and services, and the increase in costs of goods and services to cover increases in fixed and variable costs in an endless cycle.

The Federal Reserve tries to control this by artificially removing or increasing amounts in circulation...but this never returns to a base amount, it is always increasing the amounts over time.

Such inflation has the strongest effects on the low income and fixed income members of society, who then become a drain on the rest via social welfare support programs (SNAP, etc.).

Eventually, more people will be on the dole than are earning wages, while a very few (the 1%) control most of the wealth. Then faith collapses. So does society.

TaxationIsTheft said:

You probably should do a little more research. It's not a baseless argument at all. The history of fiat money, to put it kindly, has been one of failure. In fact, EVERY fiat currency since the Romans first began the practice in the first century has ended in devaluation and eventual collapse, of not only the currency, but of the economy that housed the fiat currency as well.

Click to expand...

Empires collapse, but not because of fiat currency. You have your causes and effects backwards.

MrWonka said:

Empires collapse, but not because of fiat currency. You have your causes and effects backwards.

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Boy, you sure cherry picked the heck out of my argument. Lol I listed plenty of examples with explanations as to how those economies failed and you literally just ignored 99.9% of it. Please go through and read then prove my evidence wrong with some evidence of your own instead of just saying "Nu uh!!" because that's not a very strong argument on your part.

TaxationIsTheft said:

Boy, you sure cherry picked the heck out of my argument. Lol I listed plenty of examples with explanations as to how those economies failed and you literally just ignored 99.9% of it. Please go through and read then prove my evidence wrong with some evidence of your own instead of just saying "Nu uh!!" because that's not a very strong argument on your part.

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All your so called examples are the same. The country itself collapsed. The currency went with it, but was not the cause of the collapse.

TaxationIsTheft said:

I don't know if anyone has already brought this up before, but I haven't seen anything about it in the recent posts, but the issue is simple really. We have a fiat currency and the problem with fiat currency is that it always returns to it's original value, which is zero. That's why the more money that the FED pumps into circulation, the more we see an inflation in prices and the value of the dollar continues to go down. It doesn't matter what the Government spends this money on. It could be war, social programs, infrastructure, doesn't matter. As long as they keep borrowing/printing for whatever cause, our economy will continue to deteriorate. What we really need is a new currency altogether. One that is actually backed by SOMETHING so inflation doesn't run rampant and we don't end up with these outrageous, unnatural bubbles in the market place. The system we have now is mathematically guaranteed to fail.


Also, I don't see how people aren't utterly enraged at how the government does business. Doesn't matter if you're democrat, republican, libertarian, or whatever else, but the fact that people are FORCED to pay for causes they might be strongly against through taxation is a huge red flag that there is something fundamentally wrong with government. And I love when the media says stuff like "We owe China billions or trillions of dollars!" and I'm just sitting there like "Um, YOU owe China trillions of dollars. I owe Verizon 90 dollars". A lot of these politicians make side deals and agreements with other countries/corporations without the full consent of the American people, but guess who's left picking up the bill? I don't believe people should be coerced into paying for a debt that isn't theirs. Again, I'm just baffled at how people aren't borderline ready to raze this crooked government because I know if it was some average joe like a neighbor or something screwing people over in his community, they'd raise hell trying to get restitution from that guy, But I guess a fancy suit and government title changes the perception for some folks.

Click to expand...

Well, I've heard that one in different garments over and again since I was a child. People fall for it too. Lenin sold that product as did Mao or Castro. They, however, had the advantage of military force.

TaxationIsTheft said:

I don't know if anyone has already brought this up before, but I haven't seen anything about it in the recent posts, but the issue is simple really. We have a fiat currency and the problem with fiat currency is that it always returns to it's original value, which is zero. That's why the more money that the FED pumps into circulation, the more we see an inflation in prices and the value of the dollar continues to go down. It doesn't matter what the Government spends this money on. It could be war, social programs, infrastructure, doesn't matter. As long as they keep borrowing/printing for whatever cause, our economy will continue to deteriorate. What we really need is a new currency altogether. One that is actually backed by SOMETHING so inflation doesn't run rampant and we don't end up with these outrageous, unnatural bubbles in the market place. The system we have now is mathematically guaranteed to fail.


Also, I don't see how people aren't utterly enraged at how the government does business. Doesn't matter if you're democrat, republican, libertarian, or whatever else, but the fact that people are FORCED to pay for causes they might be strongly against through taxation is a huge red flag that there is something fundamentally wrong with government. And I love when the media says stuff like "We owe China billions or trillions of dollars!" and I'm just sitting there like "Um, YOU owe China trillions of dollars. I owe Verizon 90 dollars". A lot of these politicians make side deals and agreements with other countries/corporations without the full consent of the American people, but guess who's left picking up the bill? I don't believe people should be coerced into paying for a debt that isn't theirs. Again, I'm just baffled at how people aren't borderline ready to raze this crooked government because I know if it was some average joe like a neighbor or something screwing people over in his community, they'd raise hell trying to get restitution from that guy, But I guess a fancy suit and government title changes the perception for some folks.

Click to expand...

Even if your post were correct in all of its assumptions, the system you are advocating is unworkable. Most would choose not to fund anything that didn't benefit them directly. At that point, you may as well eliminate government and let everyone directly fund things they want.

Any money used to buy a Fiat is pretty much wasted.

MrWonka said:

All your so called examples are the same. The country itself collapsed. The currency went with it, but was not the cause of the collapse.

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Nope. Again you didn't read. The currency collapsing was the largest role in those empires falling. But lets make up a scenario using your backwards logic. Lets say some group of people had a righteous government, everyone got along and the laws were just, etc, but if their currency collapses, people are going to die, starve and lose their homes and society will collapse regardless of how nice the government officials were. Get it now? This isn't rocket science.

TaxationIsTheft said:

Nope. Again you didn't read. The currency collapsing was the largest role in those empires falling. .

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Right, because you're an expert in 1st century Roman politics.

#doublethumbsup

Critter7r said:

Right, because you're an expert in 1st century Roman politics.

#doublethumbsup

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I never said i was an expert. Do you have any evidence that contradicts mine or just sarcastic remarks that aren't really arguments?

TaxationIsTheft said:

I never said i was an expert. Do you have any evidence that contradicts mine or just sarcastic remarks that aren't really arguments?

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You've provided only unsupported conjecture and your hypothesis. But no, I haven't provided evidence that contradicts your random thoughts.

Critter7r said:

You've provided only unsupported conjecture and your hypothesis. But no, I haven't provided evidence that contradicts your random thoughts.

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Well if you don't have any evidence that proves it's "unsupported conjecture" then I'm afraid you've lost this debate my friend.

TaxationIsTheft said:

Well if you don't have any evidence that proves it's "unsupported conjecture" then I'm afraid you've lost this debate my friend.

Click to expand...

:shock:

You're the one that showed up to the picnic with no dish to pass. It's not up to me to prove that.