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Coverage of Wisconsin Foxconn deal is based on lies.

Caine said:
No because it can be viewed as government involvement in the competition within the auto industry.
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I'm curious to hear your views on this proposed tax policy. :lol:
 
Ask PA what happened with Foxconn.
 
Carjosse said:
That is actually $3 billion dollars in lost revenue.
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From the sound of it, it's $3B they already aren't receiving. So the dilemma becomes : Let them create 3,000 - 13,000 jobs by offering tax breaks to the business and gaining all that inevitable economic activity due to the new jobs, or ... not offer the tax breaks and get stuck with the nothing they already have.
 
JANFU said:
Still taxpayer revenues lost. How long to pay that 3 B back with spin off, taxes generated from income?
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Less time than would be needed to pay off $3B with what they currently have instead of Foxconn, which is nothing.
 
JANFU said:
Future revenue foregone, is revenue lost.
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Only if there's something there to take it's place. At this point, there is not. Foxconn is looking to build on vacant, low tax-revenue-generating land.

If the future revenue isn't foregone, then there will be no future revenue to forego. Quite the conundrum, no?
 
JANFU said:
No, got there before ya. You cannot answer. So I am finished, nice to see an OP posted where you do not have the information.
perhaps you should research it more
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What is there to research?

There is currently an empty field generating nothing. Foxconn wants to build a factory from nothing and employ thousands of people that will earn wages and pay taxes where formerly there were none. How is that not more than nothing?
 
Fishking said:
The entire coverage if the Foxconn deal in Wisconsin is based on lies, and most likely due to the inability of the political left in the country to recognize property rights and what they mean. Here's the way it's being spun.

Wisconsin paying Foxconn $1 million per job possible, if not likely | PolitiFact Wisconsin



Fact check, 100% false, not the "half true" that Politifact rates it. The $3 billion that's being offered in tax incentives, not in government money. It won't cost the state a single dime. Money earned is not the governments property that they deign to allow you to keep after they take their cut. It's your money and then the government takes some of it.

So it will factually cost the state of Wisconsin zero dollars. However, what it will bring is jobs and money into the economy there. So they are getting that for literally no cost. There will still be a tax revenue increase due to the economic boon that thousands of jobs bring.

Question: What does zero new jobs bring an economy?
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So how long will it take 13,000 people to pay 231,000 apiece in taxes?

Say $50k a year, top bracket, about 40%, or $20k a year. 11.55 years.

Nobody pays that so 15-20 years probably. Assuming $50k a year.
 
Kushinator said:
Again, not true. It will cost taxpayers $3 billion in future tax revenues. They are the ones paying for it.
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Except that they're getting zero from Foxconn right now. Nothing. Right now, there is no "future tax revenue" from them. Nixing the deal means that there will still be no "future tax revenue". But it also means that there won't be the construction of a new manufacturing facility that will take 4 years to build, and there won't be thousands of jobs in an area that formerly had zero.

Making a deal with Foxconn (even one that nets no tax revenue) means that they still collect tax revenues from the increased economic activity from the construction of the facility and from the employees of the facility when it opens.
 
What if...? said:
So how long will it take 13,000 people to pay 231,000 apiece in taxes?

Say $50k a year, top bracket, about 40%, or $20k a year. 11.55 years.

Nobody pays that so 15-20 years probably. Assuming $50k a year.
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Well, how long will it take 0 people to pay $231,000 apiece? Because that's how many employees there are now.
 
Caine said:
Yes and no.

Yes because "Yay Environment"

No because it can be viewed as government involvement in the competition within the auto industry.
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Can't the same be said about the foxconn deal?
 
Parrish said:
Wisconsin Wouldn't Break Even On Foxconn Deal Until 2043



Nonpartisan Budget Office Details 15-Year Pay Out Of Tax Incentives



Tuesday, August 8, 2017, 5:35pm




By Laurel White
The state of Wisconsin wouldn't break even on its $3 billion incentive package for tech manufacturer Foxconn until the year 2043, according to an estimate released Tuesday by the Legislature's nonpartisan budget office.

The estimate compared the amount of tax revenue Foxconn would generate for the state to the amount of tax breaks the state offered Foxconn to come here.

According to the estimate, Wisconsin wouldn't break even on its investment until the year 2043.

The estimate focuses on the income tax that would be paid by workers at Foxconn, because the manufacturer will qualify for a state tax program that exempts it from paying income taxes. It assumes the facility will hire the maximum number of employees it has projected for the plant: 13,000.

If the manufacturer doesn't employ that many Wisconsin residents, the state's break-even point would be pushed "well past" the year 2045, the estimate said.

Democrats voiced concern about the incentive package after the estimates were released.

"I’m extremely concerned about the cost to Wisconsin taxpayers," said Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca, D-Kenosha. "The fiscal analysis released today creates new questions on the state’s cash flow and on the state’s ability to ensure a good return on investment for taxpayers."

Democrats have pushed for another public hearing on the package.

"We need more time to thoroughly vet the specifics of this deal and to ensure more work for Wisconsin contractors, suppliers and small businesses, as well as new good-paying jobs for Wisconsin workers," Barca said.

Gov. Scott Walker pushed back on the estimates Tuesday afternoon, saying more than tax revenues should be considered when evaluating the deal.

The estimate projected the Foxconn facility would create 22,000 "indirect and induced jobs" beginning in 2021. Those jobs would produce estimated at $71 million per year in tax revenue. The projection also linked 10,200 construction jobs and 6,000 indirect construction-related jobs over a four-year building period to $186.9 million in tax revenue for the state.

The Legislative Fiscal Bureau noted its analysis was only focused on the impacts of the project on the state's treasury and did not account for other potential benefits to Wisconsin's economy, like the addition of a new sector to the state’s manufacturing economy.

The estimate also outlined the yearly costs to the state for the 15-year tax incentive package.

According to the estimate, those yearly payments from the state to Foxconn will hit their peak in the year 2022, when Wisconsin is projected to pay Foxconn about $325 million.

That means a two-year state budget around then would have to include more than $600 million for Foxconn payments.

Todd Berry, president of the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance, said if state revenues don't grow enough, lawmakers will likely to have make cuts elsewhere in the budget to make those payments.

"They’ll deal with it year by year," Berry said. "They will have essentially punted the problem into the future and then they’ll be as austere as they need as each year goes along."

In terms of potential cuts to achieve that austerity, Berry said "everything is essentially fair game."

"Even K-12 education has been fair game in recent budgets," he said.

The state Assembly held a public hearing on the Foxconn deal last week. It is expected to hold a committee vote on the package later this week.

The state Senate has yet to schedule a public hearing.
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Hah! My simple math came up with a 15-20 year break even.
 
What if...? said:
So how long will it take 13,000 people to pay 231,000 apiece in taxes?

Say $50k a year, top bracket, about 40%, or $20k a year. 11.55 years.

Nobody pays that so 15-20 years probably. Assuming $50k a year.
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I seriously doubt Foxconn would be paying 50 K a year for work in their manufacturing plant. That would be 50% more than SK, more than triple the wages in China or south east asia. Expect wages to be around 32 K. With benefits compensation might go up to 50K. But would expect the high use of "temps" as to minimize the benefit cost. Foxconn is the company that had to put nets around some of it Chinese factories to help stop suicides from the dorms
 
Critter7r said:
Well, how long will it take 0 people to pay $231,000 apiece? Because that's how many employees there are now.
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I hear what you're saying.

I just think its obnoxious.

"Come to our state and we'll have your employees pay your taxes!"

What's not to like?

Nobody is offering citizens a tax break to pick fruit.
 
Critter7r said:
Well, how long will it take 0 people to pay $231,000 apiece? Because that's how many employees there are now.
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Why is Wisconsin giving foxconn an economic advantage over its competitors?

Isn't that picking winners and losers?
 
What if...? said:
Why is Wisconsin giving foxconn an economic advantage over its competitors?

Isn't that picking winners and losers?
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Yes.

And that's a whole other conversation besides the intellectually dishonest "Foxconn is COSTING Wisconsin $3 Billion".
 
What if...? said:
I hear what you're saying.

I just think its obnoxious.

"Come to our state and we'll have your employees pay your taxes!"

What's not to like?

Nobody is offering citizens a tax break to pick fruit.
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Well, those employees would be paying taxes no matter where they get jobs. Might as well have it be in (insert state of choice here).
 
What if...? said:
Can't the same be said about the foxconn deal?
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I guess you could say that.

I mean, Im all for tax breaks for encouraging people to buy electric vehicles.

While taxes are necessary, the idea that the money, by default belongs to the government is a flawed concept.

The idea that giving a tax incentive to someone is COSTING the government anything is also a flawed concept.
 
Caine said:
I guess you could say that.

I mean, Im all for tax breaks for encouraging people to buy electric vehicles.

While taxes are necessary, the idea that the money, by default belongs to the government is a flawed concept.

The idea that giving a tax incentive to someone is COSTING the government anything is also a flawed concept.
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But at the end of the day, this deal says "come here and the people will pay your taxes for 15 years".

And god knows how long foxconn could operate tax free with all the tax loopholes.

And I wonder if there's any language that would prevent them from on taking the money and then automating.
 
Kushinator said:
Correct, it will cost taxpayers in the state $3 billion in future tax liabilities.
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Which is zero money.

Government has authority to levy taxes. Your post amounts to both confusion and whining.
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No, it's correctly phrasing how the left sees people's profits from their own work. They count not being able to take *that person's money* as actually paying them. It's not. They aren't paying anything.

Again, not true. It will cost taxpayers $3 billion in future tax revenues. They are the ones paying for it.
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Wrong. No one is paying for it because zero dollars being paid. Not one sent is being taken from the state coffers and going into the company's.

Maybe. In countries made up of individual states, beggar-thy-neighbor tax policy could attract capital investment in one area... but at the expense of another. If you're going to take the "it will grow the economy" line, you have to show that capital investment directed in this particular area will generate a higher rate of productivity than it would in another state, accounting for differences in the tax rate! A difficult approach, because not only will this policy be digging itself out of a $3 billion hole, it may be doing so at a tremendous opportunity cost to the economy as a whole.
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Maybe those states need to figure out how to be more attractive to businesses. There is a reason why business is fleeing states like New York and California. That said, you lied again. There is no $3 billion hole to dig out of. That's made up.

Could this investment be made in a more productive part of the country?
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Could be not made in the country at all. Regardless, zero jobs is still zero where thousands of jobs is an economic boon. No amount of fake economics on your part will change that fact.
 
What if...? said:
So how long will it take 13,000 people to pay 231,000 apiece in taxes?

Say $50k a year, top bracket, about 40%, or $20k a year. 11.55 years.

Nobody pays that so 15-20 years probably. Assuming $50k a year.
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It doesn't matter. Thousands of jobs will have a ripple effect and increase tax revenue. There is no need to arbitrarily make it have to equal $3 billion because that $3 billion would come at the cost of not getting the deal so it's really a fictitious number.
 
Critter7r said:
Except that they're getting zero from Foxconn right now. Nothing. Right now, there is no "future tax revenue" from them. Nixing the deal means that there will still be no "future tax revenue". But it also means that there won't be the construction of a new manufacturing facility that will take 4 years to build, and there won't be thousands of jobs in an area that formerly had zero.

Making a deal with Foxconn (even one that nets no tax revenue) means that they still collect tax revenues from the increased economic activity from the construction of the facility and from the employees of the facility when it opens.
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Sure, there will be job creation in this area (no mention of a location)... but not for the right reasons. Economic stimulus isn't necessary in a state with 3.2% unemployment. This doesn't even begin to cover diverted capital from more favorable states, or even borders.
 
Fishking said:
Which is zero money.
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They will be paying the tax, not Foxconn. You make it out to be like Wisconsin has a problem with jobs.

No, it's correctly phrasing how the left sees people's profits from their own work. They count not being able to take *that person's money* as actually paying them. It's not. They aren't paying anything.
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That's not the cost. The cost occurs when future taxpayers provide the revenue that Foxconn would be paying sans tax policy. Location on the basis of tax incentive is most optimal when other geographic locations offer similar access to infrastructure and human capital.

Wrong. No one is paying for it because zero dollars being paid. Not one sent is being taken from the state coffers and going into the company's.
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It will be taken from peoples paychecks and purchases. Let it be noted you're advocating for tax stimulus. (In a state with 3.2% unemployment)

Maybe those states need to figure out how to be more attractive to businesses.
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Beggar-thy-neighbor tax policy?

There is a reason why business is fleeing states like New York and California.
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Yes, primarily because they are being squeezed out on a marginal basis. California, BTW, has been a powerful net creator of businesses:

750x422


That said, you lied again. There is no $3 billion hole to dig out of. That's made up.
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Other people will be paying the tax bill while simultaneously earning income in the state, with current resources and access to both physical and human capital, which Foxconn gets to avoid.

Could be not made in the country at all.
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So why seek an unsustainable policy using fiscal stimulus as a policy tool?

Regardless, zero jobs is still zero where thousands of jobs is an economic boon. No amount of fake economics on your part will change that fact.
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Again, Wisconsin has extremely low unemployment. There isn't a rational argument to be made for stimulus at this juncture. You're just being partisan.
 
Parrish said:
Wisconsin Wouldn't Break Even On Foxconn Deal Until 2043

Nonpartisan Budget Office Details 15-Year Pay Out Of Tax Incentives
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That's a lie. There is no money being paid out. Zero. Zip. None.
 
Critter7r said:
From the sound of it, it's $3B they already aren't receiving. So the dilemma becomes : Let them create 3,000 - 13,000 jobs by offering tax breaks to the business and gaining all that inevitable economic activity due to the new jobs, or ... not offer the tax breaks and get stuck with the nothing they already have.
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It really is that simple yet they are confused by it. No wonder our economy is in shambles.
 
What if...? said:
I hear what you're saying.

I just think its obnoxious.

"Come to our state and we'll have your employees pay your taxes!"

What's not to like?

Nobody is offering citizens a tax break to pick fruit.
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Wrong. The employees aren't paying the company's taxes. They will pay their own taxes.
 
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