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Flat Wages for the middle and working class - what to do?

And you are blind to the reality of what led us to where we are now. This all began with Reagan and his tax cuts and deficits and the middle class has been slipping ever since. Until we reverse all that has been done we are all doomed to be serfs to the aristocracy of the rich. Half of us already spend more than we earn.

Half of Americans are spending their entire paycheck (or more) - Jun. 27, 2017

I'm not sure I entirely agree with this. While he did get pretty "creative" with the tax code under the guise of supply side economics, he was also doing a pretty good job at proving MMT and the positive effects of deficit spending. However, what I absolutely HATE about Reagan's legacy is the baseless demonization of the public sector. That crap and this starve the beast mindset started right there. I'm all for a small government, but only as small as it needs to be and not because it's somehow "unnatural" compared to the private sector. We created them both and we can regulate them both to our advantage. I'm quite tired of this utter shlock that one is better than the other.
 
Yes. Not on an individual bases case by case, but based upon which income classes tend to have the highest marginal propensity to spend, and which ones have the lowest marginal propensity to spend. It would create a wealthier economy overall. A bigger pie. A bigger pie that we can ALL share proportionately to the actual effort, physical and mental and intellectual which we put into the system.

And those with wealth that have it taken to give to others because people like yourself think its fair... what's their motivation for gaining wealth if it's just going to be taken from them?
 
If you want to reduce investment and possibly even shrink the economy....
but it could be argued that the general welfare optimum might be pushed outward. It depends on the convention you choose to aggregate utility.

And there you go....Why is this the only option? Why is it not possible that we are capital heavy and that those resources need to be shifted to demand?? I could easily concede higher taxes on the lower class could lower demand in a case of inflation, or that lower taxes on the upper class could help supply. But why can't the reverse be true???
 
And you are blind to the reality of what led us to where we are now. This all began with Reagan and his tax cuts and deficits and the middle class has been slipping ever since. Until we reverse all that has been done we are all doomed to be serfs to the aristocracy of the rich. Half of us already spend more than we earn.

Half of Americans are spending their entire paycheck (or more) - Jun. 27, 2017

What a foolishly partisan hack view of economic conditions.
 
No, "we" do not. Wealth isn't public property, it's not a resource the government dictates where and how it's used. That's never ever a good idea.

Geesh, that went right over your head. The suggestion wasn't for government to determine how private sector wealth is being used.

The suggestion is that the government put to use underutilized resources (such as people who wish to work but who can't find jobs), so that those resources are being used to create public sector wealth (which leads to even more private sector wealth creation). It doesn't "cost" me or you anything, for someone who is unemployed to go to work building a bridge. Not a penny. The only "cost" is that the unemployed person no longer has as much leisure time, but to be defined as "unemployed" one has to prefer to be working (and actively seeking work), so the unemployed are happy to exchange their labor and time for a paycheck. That paycheck doesn't cost anyone any money, when financed via deficit spending (whether it is money created by the government or entities using their excess dollars to voluntarily purchase treasury bonds).
 
If you would like to prove your point please do so. I'm not going to go thru a couple of hundred pages of irs documentation for you with nothing more than "towards the middle"

I did prove my point and I gave you the calculations. I took the time to look it up and provide it however the basic way withholding work is you have ranges.
so say gross wage between 0-110 is 0 the next would be 110-443 which is some amount + 10%
next is 443 - 1650 is again some amount +15%.

all that matter is your gross wage. and where it falls. so if you earn over 1650 in the pay period then you pay x amount + 20%


Yes, but a reasonable person wouldn't have assumed that I meant that it should hire everybody :p.

no true Scotsman fallacy. you are the on making the argument it is up to you to make it clear. it is not my job to guess what your argument is.
you said to hire people and give them government jobs. that was your argument I showed you the folly of that.

I gave you three options, none of which you attempted to show flaws. I even included an offer of a lifetime of no taxes and you had no response.

you have yet to offer that as any option at all. MMT is not an option.

Ok, I will clarify since we can't get away from this - I am proposing the government supply enough employment to keep us at "full" employment and to add to wage pressure.

you have yet to offer a way to pay for all of these jobs that have a negative impact on the economy.

You lack imagination. The idea is that we create laws to regulate access to our economy and make corrections (even in the form of taxes) when necessary.

no I deal with facts not fantasy land. I prove what you argued as incorrect and this is all you can offer.

Yes, but only a typical conservative assumes it affects you negatively. It seems ludin is still uninterested in a debate.

you not debating anything you are simply saying this is right because I say it is. I am showing you where it isn't correct.
all your so called idea have already been done in one form or another and have failed.

well since you didn't care to elaborate, you're baseless opinion is noted.

matter of fact you have not offered any option worth choosing so I picked none.
it is not my problem but yours.

This where the hypocrisy of conservatism comes out for me. You have no problem with nepotism and dynasties that contributes to an eventual oligarchy and that some how that passes the litmus tests of "fair" and "hard work".

no hypocrisy at all. It is my money I get to dictate where it goes. if I want to give it to charity then I have that right. If I choose to give it to my family so that they are better off then that is what I do.
for some reason you don't seem to grasp this thing called freedom.
 
And those with wealth that have it taken to give to others because people like yourself think its fair... what's their motivation for gaining wealth if it's just going to be taken from them?

You're in the weeds. Are you suggesting that a person wouldn't try to earn 10 million dollars if he had to pay half in taxes? We don't need to talk about fairness. Because life isn't fair. It isn't fair that some people have all the advantage in the world. And some are born rich, and some play baseball, and some are in the right place at the right time. So far this is just a conversation about economics.
 
You're in the weeds. Are you suggesting that a person wouldn't try to earn 10 million dollars if he had to pay half in taxes? We don't need to talk about fairness. Because life isn't fair. It isn't fair that some people have all the advantage in the world. And some are born rich, and some play baseball, and some are in the right place at the right time. So far this is just a conversation about economics.

I don't have class envy like ya'll do. And yes, I think people with money will look for the best ROI and if you make the US Economy about extracting as much wealth from them as you can, well we have seen how business outsource, because of over burdensome taxes and regulations.

You amuse me, you say life isn't fair, but you are trying to force your morally bankrupt version of fairness.
 
I did prove my point and I gave you the calculations. I took the time to look it up and provide it however the basic way withholding work is you have ranges.
so say gross wage between 0-110 is 0 the next would be 110-443 which is some amount + 10%
next is 443 - 1650 is again some amount +15%.

all that matter is your gross wage. and where it falls. so if you earn over 1650 in the pay period then you pay x amount + 20%
OH ludin, did it ever occur to you that "some amount" is the total tax from the previous brackets? This proves my point perfectly. It sure as hell doesn't demonstrate you pay more in total taxes if you make another dollar


no true Scotsman fallacy. you are the on making the argument it is up to you to make it clear. it is not my job to guess what your argument is.
you said to hire people and give them government jobs. that was your argument I showed you the folly of that.
I have clarified


you have yet to offer that as any option at all. MMT is not an option.
I have offered progressive taxes, deficit spending, and death taxes


you have yet to offer a way to pay for all of these jobs that have a negative impact on the economy.
You haven't made the slightest attempt to show a negative impact of the 3 options above.


no I deal with facts not fantasy land. I prove what you argued as incorrect and this is all you can offer.
I gave you an analogy of a person claiming more than they should of an economy, and you said something about fair use which I think is copyright law.


you not debating anything you are simply saying this is right because I say it is. I am showing you where it isn't correct.
all your so called idea have already been done in one form or another and have failed.
I gave an idea of everybody having a job. You refuted it with an article about communism.


matter of fact you have not offered any option worth choosing so I picked none.
it is not my problem but yours.
What you deem as "worth" is not a matter of fact.

no hypocrisy at all. It is my money I get to dictate where it goes. if I want to give it to charity then I have that right. If I choose to give it to my family so that they are better off then that is what I do.
for some reason you don't seem to grasp this thing called freedom.
Its not your money until all terms of the transactions have been settled, and that can certainly be taxes.
 
I see no issue with people having money and being prosperous and moving that money
onto their family.

you evidently have a problem with it.

There is no merit in the wealth that someone acquires through inheritance. They didn't earn it, or do anything to deserve it. This world would be much better off if we funded our government with inheritance tax, than through a tax on work. Inheritance tax does no harm to a dead person.
 
really what are those idle resources? the only idle resources is money that people shove in their mattress most money is not shoved in the mattress.
most people invest their money.

no one practices MMT the governments that have tried have destroyed their currency.

Money isn't really a resource. It's created out of thin air and can be created in unlimited quantities.

People with college degrees waiting tables, people drawing unemployment, people who prefer to live off welfare than to acquire a job. And most manufacturing plants have underutilized resources. A production facility will only produce the amount that it can sell before the product expires and without excess warehouse costs. Even in my tiny company, we could produce more, if we had more orders.
 
My challenges are inquiry, I am interesting in flushing your idea out. So no need to take any of these questions as hostile.
pay all overtime with an increasing multiplier (reducing labor supply) - why do all productivity gains go only to the bottom line and not to overall quality of life - this is way automation/globalization is looked at as bad.
How would the local companies compete against Asia(others) where there is no chance of overtime hours approaching anything close to what we have here? Overtime is a pretty common practice so it not in an insignificant amount of productivity loss and burden on companies.

use public sector employment to ensure every person that wants one has a job (reduce private sector labor supply)
Which industries would these be in? Would they aim to be profit neutral or a new government service? Do you think they should get a monopoly in the industry in order to compete or are they just a player in the market? If they take a huge lose one year is that covered by the taxpayer or is the taxpayer only a part-shareholder? Can these public companies fire employees for normal misconduct? Are they forced to hire other undesirables? Do you limit time in the public service or can one spend you whole career in it?

limit management salaries to a multiplier of employee pay (productive improvement as a society should be shared)
Do you worry in a potential loss of jobs as managerial types especially in small firm hire less low-cost labour to maximize their own salary? Does the rule hold true for contractors (one service I’ve contracted pays their employees as low as $2.75/h as that is good in their country)? Does this apply to local sub-contractors or only labour who meet the definition of an employee? How do you deal with industry that deal in commission or piece work compared to management who are salaried[is it just average]? What kind of penalties do you so for companies found not to be in compliance? How long do they have to adjust if the ratio is distorted?

make college the new high school - if automation is going to continue to reduce labor need, our dollar requires that we create things that only a 1st world country with a lot of R & D can do - we cannot compete with the world on widgets
Do you think a collage education helps most employees be more skilled in the workforce? Do you think education is where our best R&D is coming from?

welcome globalization, but only for countries that meet our labor standards
Does that mean tariffs against Asia/South America? Do you worry about being leapfrogged considering much of the growth is in those regions and many American companies would have to completely restructure or flee?

I propose redistributing money from those with a low marginal propensity to consume who obtained it thru unbalanced access to the economy to those that have a high marginal propensity to consume.
Does it not seem shortsighted though that “low marginal propensity to consume” people (like myself) are spending less on investment and growth well “high marginal propensity to consume” create all the problem, that is to say, shortsighted to encourage a culture of high consumption low production?

I don’t mean to sound insensitive. I will fully admit I could afford tax hikes with out big impacts on my lifestyle unlike many. My concern is waste…I realize not everyone in my situation is me, but do you really think the alternative use of my investment dollars as tax dollars creates economic prosperity? We are talking governments who collect huge sums of money yet continue to run insane deficits and ridiculous levels of underfunded liabilities. I don’t have a problem with Socialistic dream of Healthcare, Free Education, Universal income, Homes for all etc. the problem becomes in every example these systems are design to fail in the longterm[for short-term benefit]. Look at any current system of single payer — which one running for any length of time isn’t reducing services year on year or has skyrocketing costs? Same for education.

Lowering taxes might not create jobs. It’s obviously not a direct relationship, but one does need to admit that is us wealthy people who are creating the jobs yes?

This where the hypocrisy of conservatism comes out for me. You have no problem with nepotism and dynasties that contributes to an eventual oligarchy and that some how that passes the litmus tests of "fair" and "hard work".
I originally thought you were joking, but just so you know 100% of my wealth creation is for my children and future grandchildren and if a government takes it away ~ your going to lose rich people in droves or have a real war on your hands. You want to talk motivators, leaving a better world for our child is right near the top!!!
 
I don't have class envy like ya'll do.
This is an economic discussion, and marginal propensity to consume is a real thing. If you want to say "I don't care" that is your prerogative, but at that point we're no longer having a logical debate. I'd be all for a debate on "fairness" but not at this time. It is possible to debate the mechanics separately from the philosophical.

And yes, I think people with money will look for the best ROI and if you make the US Economy about extracting as much wealth from them as you can
I find it ironic that you use ROI and extract in the same sentence without linking them together.

well we have seen how business outsource, because of over burdensome taxes and regulations.
But I'm talking about personal income taxes, not business taxes. I'm for very low, business taxes.

You amuse me, you say life isn't fair, but you are trying to force your morally bankrupt version of fairness.
I was trying to say it plagues the logical debate. I'm all for having that other debate, but I would like to you to recognize or refute the mechanics here first.
 
Lower taxes, streamline regulations, control H1 style Visas, work to reduce burdensome dictates on businesses at the Federal level.
Those all sound like great steps for the current climate but do you think these address these downward pressures and trends on buying power & wage growth for any length of time?

Debt in the US to pay for expensive medical treatment, might not be a choice at all?
Other than single payer does anyone see a moral answer to the problem of medical debt? Or is it just one of those really bad cards some people get dealt?

That's the nice thing about progressive taxes. If you are using that money only to support your family, then it's not likely to affect you.
That depend how you view taking care of my family. My goal is to make such a cusion my great-great-great... grandchildren would still be protected.

That's the rub, though.
Thus far, automation isn't freeing man from labor.
It's just freeing employers from labor costs.
It freeing a lot of them. I agree though many are not adapting.

We have idle resources, resources which go to waste. They could make our society, on the whole, far more prosperous if we could simply mobilize them. Mobilizing them requires currency.
Like giving all the cars in car dealerships to people? I wonder it all the time yet I fully know it has huge ripples on the whole economy….
 
There is no merit in the wealth that someone acquires through inheritance. They didn't earn it, or do anything to deserve it. This world would be much better off if we funded our government with inheritance tax, than through a tax on work. Inheritance tax does no harm to a dead person.

You opinion is you opinion not fact. The fact is the money belongs to the person that earned it.
Thy can do whatever they want with it.

No it wouldn't you would destroy prosperity. If you want to give your money to the government when you die then you are free to
Do so. No one will stop you. You don't get to dictate that to other people.
 
And those with wealth that have it taken to give to others because people like yourself think its fair... what's their motivation for gaining wealth if it's just going to be taken from them?


No, not "given" to others. I don't support our means tested welfare programs.

If we want to have a government, and if we want inflation to be kept in check, then we need taxation. I'm sure that you would agree with that. So it's just a matter of figuring out what tax policy does the least harm. Does the loss of dollars due to taxation harm a young working family more, or does it harm the standard of living of a billionare more? Seriously, think about it.
 
Money isn't really a resource. It's created out of thin air and can be created in unlimited quantities.

People with college degrees waiting tables, people drawing unemployment, people who prefer to live off welfare than to acquire a job. And most manufacturing plants have underutilized resources. A production facility will only produce the amount that it can sell before the product expires and without excess warehouse costs. Even in my tiny company, we could produce more, if we had more orders.

You didn't address one thing I said why is that?
 
I don't have class envy like ya'll do. And yes, I think people with money will look for the best ROI and if you make the US Economy about extracting as much wealth from them as you can, well we have seen how business outsource, because of over burdensome taxes and regulations.

You amuse me, you say life isn't fair, but you are trying to force your morally bankrupt version of fairness.

There is a big difference between class envy, and being able to identify poorly managed economic systems.
 
You opinion is you opinion not fact. The fact is the money belongs to the person that earned it.
Thy can do whatever they want with it.

No it wouldn't you would destroy prosperity. If you want to give your money to the government when you die then you are free to
Do so. No one will stop you. You don't get to dictate that to other people.

You think that people who inherit money earned it? Really?
 
There is a big difference between class envy, and being able to identify poorly managed economic systems.

A free market isn't supposed to be "managed"
 
You think that people who inherit money earned it? Really?

Why do you care how someone came into legally obtained monies? If I manage to earn a large amount of money, and pass it on to my kids, why is that wrong? The estate tax is one of the most evil taxes on the planet.
 
You didn't address one thing I said why is that?

You indicated that money was a resource, implying that it is in limited supply. I explained that money isn't limited, it's unlimited. It's like points at a ball game.

I explained that we have unutilized and underutilized resources that could be but to use.

How were my statements not responsive to what you said?
 
Why do you care how someone came into legally obtained monies? If I manage to earn a large amount of money, and pass it on to my kids, why is that wrong? The estate tax is one of the most evil taxes on the planet.

If we outlawed inheritance, then it wouldn't be legal would it?

Giving money to people who didn't earn it has no merit. It's the entitlement way of thinking. Your kids aren't entitled to jack **** that they didn't create. Estate tax is the least evil, doing the least amount of harm, of all taxes on the planet. It makes no sense to be willing to tax someone for working (why should we tax work at all?), but not be willing to tax someone based on money that they got with no productive effort on their own part.

You are making economic statements based upon emotion, I'm being pragmatic.
 
If we want to have a government, and if we want inflation to be kept in check, then we need taxation. I'm sure that you would agree with that.
My Ideal view of taxation would be a guaranteed preferred tax share of around 10% required for all businesses and self-employ, few tariffs but absolutely zero income or sales tax. So just because you “need” to tax to have a government doesn’t mean you “need” to tax at a crazy high level or in unethical ways like the death tax or forfeiture.

So it's just a matter of figuring out what tax policy does the least harm.
Figuring out what tax policy does the least harm is a fair assessment. Too bad us people are awful at harm assessment, eh?

Does the loss of dollars due to taxation harm a young working family more, or does it harm the standard of living of a billionare more? Seriously, think about it.
More so then you might think…

Directly, the point is clear; but if said billionaire is the direct reason that young working family has the opportunity to grow and make a great life for themselves then daddy government coming in and trying to make fair is most certainly going to hurt the young working family more, on the indirect side as they have less economic protection.

There is no merit in the wealth that someone acquires through inheritance. They didn't earn it, or do anything to deserve it. This world would be much better off if we funded our government with inheritance tax, than through a tax on work. Inheritance tax does no harm to a dead person.
So I am not allow to direct my own children? My legacy….I think to the dead person legacy is all that matters!

Giving money to people who didn't earn it has no merit. It's the entitlement way of thinking. Your kids aren't entitled to jack **** that they didn't create. Estate tax is the least evil, doing the least amount of harm, of all taxes on the planet. It makes no sense to be willing to tax someone for working (why should we tax work at all?), but not be willing to tax someone based on money that they got with no productive effort on their own part.You are making economic statements based upon emotion, I'm being pragmatic.

Fairness isn't about emotions now?
 
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