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Is Supply Side a way to force Austerity in Kansas?

Way to make an effort. The website has State and local numbers too. Geez. ��*♂️

I'm not going to search a website for the data. If you don't want to make the effort to provide the link, I'll pass on doing the work for you. Thanks anyway.
 
Republican lawmakers in Kansas have said a lot about tax cuts and conservative fiscal policy, and very little of it has been true. Predictions have been decimated and Brownback without admitting what he did was either foolish or dishonest, has doubled down on supply side economics. It's all about giving money away to the rich and cutting Democratic programs they disagree with. Kansas slashed income and business taxes and experienced revenue shortfalls. Stephen Moore and Art Laffer have basically said, "We recommend more tax cuts." On what basis? Kansas did your plan and it left a hundreds of millions dollar hole in your budget. Not to mention the tax increases Brownback used to mitigate disaster, was a regressive sales tax that hit the poor and working class.

So, I'd like to begin from the agreement between everyone here, that tax cuts mean less revenue. If you want to cut taxes, you have to cut spending. Well, where are you going to cut spending? Kansas turned to education, highway fund, and pensions. Is this public policy you agree with? Are long term consequences of austerity a beneficial revelation for society?

Kansas also had to go after education funding, to pay for the tax cuts. Call it what you want, but in my eyes, Kansas gave the school's money away to the rich. So, since education is supposed to be a 10th amendment issue anyway, should be smooth sailing from here. Well, what happens when the school's can't perform or pay their teachers? I guess it's Kansas 10th amendment right to have low quality education.

The problem with Kansas poorly designed tax plans and high rates on other taxes. Comparing them with neighboring states they have the highest gasoline tax, high sin taxes ( beer, win cigs ).
They have one of the highest sales taxes in the region.
One of the highest property taxes in the region
The second lowest median household income in the region.
Their corporate and person income taxes are very oddly designed. The corporate tax, particularly compared to neighboring states, is punitive on income between 50k and 100k which is probably pretty common for small businesses. This is where they have lost the most money. comparing 2015 and 2016 they lost 1.3% on personal income tax revenue. But they lost 15% on corporate tax revenue.
 
Do you even realize that people that renounce their citizenship are not free from US law? What is even the point of bringing it up here? You should do your research before suggesting courses of action be taken.

Not really sure what you're referring to here. There is a potential tax hit when you move your money out of a first world country to your libertarian paradise, but otherwise you'll have to explain when U.S. law will affect you living in your libertarian paradise with no compulsory taxes.
 
Of course we consent to being taxed by residing in and being citizens of the U.S. and therefore enjoying the fruits of that taxation and spending. People renounce their citizenship and move all the time. That's fine with me. Just don't come back, ever. Don't do business here, use our courts, our banking system, employ those educated at public schools or other schools that receive public funding, etc.

On the contrary; we very much want foreigners to use our banking system, hire American workers, etc.

Can't make any sense out of your example.

The claim was made that not taking something from someone was the same as giving that thing to them. This is true only if you had ownership of that thing to begin with, and had given it to them in the first place.


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I'm not going to search a website for the data. If you don't want to make the effort to provide the link, I'll pass on doing the work for you. Thanks anyway.

It isn't on one page. You have to go to multiple pages for multiple years and multiple tax types. So you can either look for the years and data or accept they are accurate.


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OK so change the question around. In this country, public education is the responsibility of the state for K-12 and a big part of higher education funding. So should the priority be to maintain the funding that produced good schools in Kansas OR lower tax burdens, mostly for the wealthy?

Should we take more in order to do the things we want, but with more money, or should we do the things we want with less money.

That's up to the State. Personally, I'd rather shrink State direct provision dramatically in favor of a subsidized market system. Money doesn't produce reliable quality without other factors, but competition can. But if California or Massachusetts wants to let their public employee unions destroy their state fisc instead; that's their right.



It's a tradeoff and it's frankly fine for an informed public to decide - let's cut school funding (and a bunch of other core government functions) and lower tax burdens. But that's not really what Kansas did. They sold a lie that they could cut taxes and keep school, road, etc. funding at current or close to current levels.

Huh. They must have learned that from watching Democrats defend the Entitlements.


The short answer is of course. We live here, and by doing so enjoy a slew of benefits provided by the Feds, and in return for that we agree to pay taxes. You can call it what you want, but that's the agreement we make by being citizens here.

I don't recall signing this contract. If I became legally responsible for it as a child or at birth... then do not Dreamers similarly hold responsibility for their law breaking as children?

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On the contrary; we very much want foreigners to use our banking system, hire American workers, etc.

Sure we do, but if you've lived here, don't like it and decide to renounce your citizenship, stay the hell out of our country for good. I wholeheartedly APPROVED of the State department denying visas to the bitcoin dudebro who renounced and moved to an island in the Caribbean. He was shocked!! he couldn't get a visa to return any damn time he liked. F him. If he doesn't appreciate what the country did for him, that's fine, get out and stay out.

And the actual point was we DO consent to taxation by living here and enjoying the benefits of living in an advanced, wealthy, first world country. That doesn't come for free, and if you enjoy the benefits, you agree to an obligation to fund part of them. Pretty simple.

The claim was made that not taking something from someone was the same as giving that thing to them. This is true only if you had ownership of that thing to begin with, and had given it to them in the first place.

Yeah, right, I understand the concept. Cutting taxes is taking less from "the rich" for example, not giving them anything. It's just a way to muddy the conversation.

Let's take the AHCA. We're evaluating the change. Assume that the net effect for purposes of an example is 20 million fewer people get Medicaid and are unable to otherwise afford insurance, and the mostly rich pay about $80 billion less in taxes/year. The GOP decided on their priorities and it was to lower taxes for the wealthy and reduce benefits for the very poor. That IS what happened.

You can say, well, we didn't "give" the wealthy anything! We just took less FROM THEM! And the poor weren't entitled to healthcare! I don't really care how you want to phrase it, what words you use, to avoid discussing the effect and the choice of priorities that is inherent in the AHCA, but that's what you're doing. Why not just discuss why you favor the GOP result, and believe our priority should be maximizing the after tax income of the wealthy and that you don't really care about the 20 million who will get kicked off Medicaid because....whatever.
 
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Should we take more in order to do the things we want, but with more money, or should we do the things we want with less money.

That's up to the State. Personally, I'd rather shrink State direct provision dramatically in favor of a subsidized market system. Money doesn't produce reliable quality without other factors, but competition can. But if California or Massachusetts wants to let their public employee unions destroy their state fisc instead; that's their right.

Not sure why no conservative can discuss Kansas in a thread about Kansas instead of creating red herrings. I think the people of KANSAS (the topic) just decided that the state couldn't do what they wanted with less money. Also, significantly, the choice of doing less with less wasn't honestly presented to the voters in KANSAS (the topic), rather the GOP lied and said they could have their cake (lower taxes) and eat it too (fund core services at the level the citizens expected).

As far as markets, subsidies, competition, etc. - great. But KANSAS didn't do what you suggested, so it's moot for purposes of this discussion. Furthermore, saying that stuff is easy - they're talking points. Doing it in a way that works and isn't just a transfer of tax dollars to private interests is VERY hard.

Huh. They must have learned that from watching Democrats defend the Entitlements.

OK, so you have no response except BUT DEMOCRATS!!!! Both sides!!! :roll:

I don't recall signing this contract. If I became legally responsible for it as a child or at birth... then do not Dreamers similarly hold responsibility for their law breaking as children?

You don't have to sign a contract to agree to the terms of living here. If you expect the benefits of living here and the benefits we get from paying guys like you (at least I think you are/were on the government payroll) to serve the interests of the U.S. you agree or should agree to fund part of the costs. If not, you're arguing for being a deadbeat and that's a weak argument IMO.

And I'm ignoring the red herring about Dreamers. You are not a Dreamer.
 
Sure we do, but if you've lived here, don't like it and decide to renounce your citizenship, stay the hell out of our country for good. I wholeheartedly APPROVED of the State department denying visas to the bitcoin dudebro who renounced and moved to an island in the Caribbean. He was shocked!! he couldn't get a visa to return any damn time he liked. F him. If he doesn't appreciate what the country did for him, that's fine, get out and stay out.

So you're telling me my agreement to get those services matters at some point? When is that exactly? Did I get consulted when I was teenager and the government took money out of my salary for the first time? I don't recall that happening. In fact, I'm pretty sure I wasn't even able to vote back then.


And the actual point was we DO consent to taxation by living here and enjoying the benefits of living in an advanced, wealthy, first world country. That doesn't come for free, and if you enjoy the benefits, you agree to an obligation to fund part of them. Pretty simple.

That's idiotic. A person being born here does not offer the government their consent. When that person grows into an adult and stays here the government again does not get that persons consent. Tell me though, why do you feel you consented to be under the rule of other human beings at birth forward? Yes, yes, someone can move to get away from that, but that is of course only to get away from the default position.
 
So you're telling me my agreement to get those services matters at some point? When is that exactly? Did I get consulted when I was teenager and the government took money out of my salary for the first time? I don't recall that happening. In fact, I'm pretty sure I wasn't even able to vote back then.

That's idiotic. A person being born here does not offer the government their consent. When that person grows into an adult and stays here the government again does not get that persons consent. Tell me though, why do you feel you consented to be under the rule of other human beings at birth forward? Yes, yes, someone can move to get away from that, but that is of course only to get away from the default position.

It's very simple for me. When you became an adult, you gained the right to do as you wish with regard to living here and paying taxes, which is a condition of living here and earning a living. By choosing to live and work here, you agree to the terms. Don't like the terms? Fine, get out and stay out. Find your libertarian paradise! Just don't come back here when you see what you're missing.

I have no patience with people who instead of recognizing the incredibly good fortune we enjoy just as a matter of luck, being born a U.S. citizen, don't look around the world and go, "Wow, good thing I wasn't born in (name about 200 countries) because my opportunities there would SUCK. A trailer home would be a mansion for about 95% of the population! Thanks deity of your choice!" you guys whine about paying taxes for the privilege. I think it's selfish.
 
Not sure why no conservative can discuss Kansas in a thread about Kansas instead of creating red herrings.

Liberals tend to take Kansas as a starting point for generalized arguments - I've not looked deeply into Kansas, but I have a few things to say about those generalized arguments.

I think the people of KANSAS (the topic) just decided that the state couldn't do what they wanted with less money.

Then they spend less, do what they are doing in a more efficient manner, or tax more :shrug: Personally, I'd prefer a combo of the first two for my home state, but Kansas should be allowed to do as it pleases.

Also, significantly, the choice of doing less with less wasn't honestly presented to the voters in KANSAS (the topic), rather the GOP lied and said they could have their cake (lower taxes) and eat it too (fund core services at the level the citizens expected).

:shrug: I find it unlikely your description is apt. Far more likely is the GOP anticipated greater growth than occurred, just as those who raise taxes usually anticipate greater revenue increases than occur.

As far as markets, subsidies, competition, etc. - great. But KANSAS didn't do what you suggested, so it's moot for purposes of this discussion. Furthermore, saying that stuff is easy - they're talking points. Doing it in a way that works and isn't just a transfer of tax dollars to private interests is VERY hard.

Why should I care if we are sending tax dollars to private entities who provide those goods and services which we wish to be bought? I don't care when food stamps go to privately owned food stores or when Unemployment Insurance Benefits go to purchase gas from a a privately owned gas station.

You don't have to sign a contract to agree to the terms of living here. If you expect the benefits of living here and the benefits we get from paying guys like you (at least I think you are/were on the government payroll) to serve the interests of the U.S. you agree or should agree to fund part of the costs. If not, you're arguing for being a deadbeat and that's a weak argument IMO.

And I'm ignoring the red herring about Dreamers. You are not a Dreamer.

It's not a red herring - it is a test to see if you will recognize the results of the argument you are putting forth when those results are uncomfortable for you. That let's us know whether you actually believe it, or just find it convenient.
 
Sure we do, but if you've lived here, don't like it and decide to renounce your citizenship, stay the hell out of our country for good.

Oh. So it's really just about hating and getting revenge against people who disagree with us. When you present it as an honest choice between whether or not one wishes to take part in the social governing contract, you don't actually mean it.

Okay.


Yeah, right, I understand the concept. Cutting taxes is taking less from "the rich" for example, not giving them anything. It's just a way to muddy the conversation.

It's not. Words have meaning and those are important.

Let's take the AHCA. We're evaluating the change. Assume that the net effect for purposes of an example is 20 million fewer people get Medicaid and are unable to otherwise afford insurance, and the mostly rich pay about $80 billion less in taxes/year. The GOP decided on their priorities and it was to lower taxes for the wealthy and reduce benefits for the very poor. That IS what happened.

It is not what happened. The Very Poor are on Medicaid. The GOP shifted the current subsidy system to a tax credit based system, which has the result of giving some people more in benefits and some people less in benefits than what they received under the earlier program. In that way, it is very similar to Obamacare itself, which resulted in some people paying less for healthcare, and others paying far more, and still others not having access at all.

You can say, well, we didn't "give" the wealthy anything! We just took less FROM THEM!

That is correct. Taxation is coercive and extractive in nature, but it is required for governance. Coercing people and taking less from them is generally a good thing, except when it comes at a greater cost (for example, the inability to provide basic security from invasion or theft). Generally these are tragedies of the commons.

And the poor weren't entitled to healthcare! I don't really care how you want to phrase it, what words you use, to avoid discussing the effect and the choice of priorities that is inherent in the AHCA, but that's what you're doing. Why not just discuss why you favor the GOP result, and believe our priority should be maximizing the after tax income of the wealthy and that you don't really care about the 20 million who will get kicked off Medicaid because....whatever.

:shrug: the "20 million kicked off Medicaid" is a myth. The CBO didn't say 20 million people would be kicked off Medicaid. It said that it magic alternative universe land, in the future, more states than have expanded Medicaid under Obamacare would expand Medicaid under Obamacare, and that the result of the freeze in the expansion is that 20 million people less are pushed onto Medicaid's rolls. No one is "kicked off". Others simply don't join, because their states haven't expanded it.
 
Liberals tend to take Kansas as a starting point for generalized arguments - I've not looked deeply into Kansas, but I have a few things to say about those generalized arguments.

So you brought up California and Mass.....

Then they spend less, do what they are doing in a more efficient manner, or tax more :shrug: Personally, I'd prefer a combo of the first two for my home state, but Kansas should be allowed to do as it pleases.

I agree - never said anyone should force Kansas to do something.

I find it unlikely your description is apt. Far more likely is the GOP anticipated greater growth than occurred, just as those who raise taxes usually anticipate greater revenue increases than occur.

Well, if the GOP anticipated revenue growth, and not the collapse that did happen and was easily predicted with math, there's a serious problem - which is large numbers of the GOP believe in the Tax Tooth Fairy, or pretend to, and it doesn't exist. The evidence against a Tax Tooth Fairy is pretty overwhelming. And I don't believe your "both sides" argument has any merit. If you want to make it, please present some evidence that those who raise taxes usually anticipate more revenue growth than occurs. I've shown you the CBO, for example, underestimated revenue every year following the Clinton tax increases. and most liberals I know go with the official estimates....

Why should I care if we are sending tax dollars to private entities who provide those goods and services which we wish to be bought? I don't care when food stamps go to privately owned food stores or when Unemployment Insurance Benefits go to purchase gas from a a privately owned gas station.

You misread my comment - "in a way that WORKS and is not just a transfer of tax dollars to private interests..."

Based on a lot of the evidence I've seen, privatization is OFTEN really just a corrupt exercise, crony capitalism with few if any benefits and no money saved.

It's not a red herring - it is a test to see if you will recognize the results of the argument you are putting forth when those results are uncomfortable for you. That let's us know whether you actually believe it, or just find it convenient.

You're not a Dreamer, you're an adult with the freedom to stay or leave the U.S. If you don't like the deal, leave. I will wish you well in your new country.

And I don't know what part of the Dreamer red herring is supposed to uncomfortable for me. They have no right to be here - them remaining as adults is a choice this country makes. If they stay, they consent to the laws of this country including the tax laws. What part of that is tricky for me? I'm missing something.

You just don't want to defend the argument for being a deadbeat, and I don't blame you.
 
For that to be true, it would have to have been the State's money to begin with.

Do you believe that the government, currently headed in its' Executive Branch by Trump, owns you, and therefore exercises rightful property rights over you and your produce?

When you tell Kansans that you're going to "inject adrenaline into the economy" by cutting taxes, and then when that doesn't happen, you resort to cutting education, that is just dishonest. If the education cuts were only necessary if the tax cuts are in place, that points to culpability lying with the tax cuts. If you already gave away the few hundred million that your missing in your budget, then you fronted the money to the private sector, without telling the public sector, that since we are going to be giving the private sector an extra few hundred million, everyone is taking paycuts and a reduction in services. That conversation never happened.

If Brownback had told Kansans that reduced tax rates means reduced revenue, and they would have to make some tough choices, that would have been an honest debate the Kansan people could have had. Instead he told them a lot of supply side voodoo was going to happen, and when it didn't, reality set in. Kansas mandates a balanced budget, so, he had to balance the budget on the backs of teachers. My personal recollection of the events in Kansas isn't as clear as it could be, but from what I understand, after public outcry and budgetary quagmires, the statehouse overrode Brownback's veto this year, to raise the personal income tax slightly. I could be mistaken but, that's my best recollection of the events of Kansas.

My gripe is with the dishonesty. If Kansas wants to impose austerity be honest. Don't tell Kansans that this great era of supply side gold is coming, that the rich are going to make it rain jobs on to the lower classes, because that's just not going to happen. Demand creates jobs, not the rich's overflowing purses. Even on a small business level. A small business owner could keep an extra 10 grand a year, and never hire anyone extra. Because if the demand was there for them to hire an extra person, the demand would pay for the job, not an extra 10g windfall. So, the argument that supply side is done for the express purpose of the small business owner is fallacious. Supply side is done to give the ultra rich insane amounts of extra money because they profusively donate to politicians. And then when the big "whoopsie" moment comes along when doing the budget, Republicans can make cuts or impose austerity and say, their hands were tied. (We just had to give massive tax breaks to the rich.) Except they can then blame Democrats, social programs, and immigrants.

Brownback should've had an honest debate about a lower tax burden and a reduction in government services, that includes k-12.

Edit: I'm sorry not all of my post pertains to your discussion. Disregard irrelevant parts.
 
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It's very simple for me. When you became an adult, you gained the right to do as you wish with regard to living here and paying taxes, which is a condition of living here and earning a living. By choosing to live and work here, you agree to the terms. Don't like the terms? Fine, get out and stay out. Find your libertarian paradise! Just don't come back here when you see what you're missing.

I have no patience with people who instead of recognizing the incredibly good fortune we enjoy just as a matter of luck, being born a U.S. citizen, don't look around the world and go, "Wow, good thing I wasn't born in (name about 200 countries) because my opportunities there would SUCK. A trailer home would be a mansion for about 95% of the population! Thanks deity of your choice!" you guys whine about paying taxes for the privilege. I think it's selfish.

You know what I actually agreed to when I was a teenager and got my first job? A salary. That agreement was in fact violated when the US government took their cut without my permission. I didn't agree to get less than the agreed upon amount, but since the US government wanted to rob me, well, that's what I got. You know what else happened that I didn't agree too? Money being taken out for services that the government signed me up to pay for without my permission like Social Security. Services that I might just add are against my political beliefs. Tell me though, why would I agree to pay for something that I'm against existing in the first place? You know, since your claim is that I agreed to pay taxes. Why would I agree to pay for a service that I don't want? It's almost like you're calling the sixteen year old me a complete moron that agreed to things he hated.
 
When you tell Kansans that you're going to "inject adrenaline into the economy" by cutting taxes, and then when that doesn't happen, you resort to cutting education, that is just dishonest. If the education cuts were only necessary if the tax cuts are in place, that points to culpability lying with the tax cuts. If you already gave away the few hundred million that your missing in your budget, then you fronted the money to the private sector, without telling the public sector, that since we are going to be giving the private sector an extra few hundred million, everyone is taking paycuts and a reduction in services. That conversation never happened.

If Brownback had told Kansans that reduced tax rates means reduced revenue, and they would have to make some tough choices, that would have been an honest debate the Kansan people could have had. Instead he told them a lot of supply side voodoo was going to happen, and when it didn't, reality set in. Kansas mandates a balanced budget, so, he had to balance the budget on the backs of teachers. My personal recollection of the events in Kansas isn't as clear as it could be, but from what I understand, after public outcry and budgetary quagmires, the statehouse overrode Brownback's veto this year, to raise the personal income tax slightly. I could be mistaken but, that's my best recollection of the events of Kansas.

My gripe is with the dishonesty. If Kansas wants to impose austerity be honest. Don't tell Kansans that this great era of supply side gold is coming, that the rich are going to make it rain jobs on to the lower classes, because that's just not going to happen. Demand creates jobs, not the rich's overflowing purses. Even on a small business level. A small business owner could keep an extra 10 grand a year, and never hire anyone extra. Because if the demand was there for them to hire an extra person, the demand would pay for the job, not an extra 10g windfall. So, the argument that supply side is done for the express purpose of the small business owner is fallacious. Supply side is done to give the ultra rich insane amounts of extra money because they profusively donate to politicians. And then when the big "whoopsie" moment comes along when doing the budget, Republicans can make cuts or impose austerity and say, their hands were tied. (We just had to give massive tax breaks to the rich.) Except they can then blame Democrats, social programs, and immigrants.

Brownback should've had an honest debate about a lower tax burden and a reduction in government services, that includes k-12.

Edit: I'm sorry not all of my post pertains to your discussion. Disregard irrelevant parts.

No worries. :) We can have a seperate discussion on whether or not being incorrect about something as complex as revenue projections is the same thing as dishonesty, if you like. I just wanted to point out that there is a real difference between "not taking something" and "giving something".
 
Oh. So it's really just about hating and getting revenge against people who disagree with us. When you present it as an honest choice between whether or not one wishes to take part in the social governing contract, you don't actually mean it.

I don't hate people who renounce and move away. I know none of them. My position is if you want to renounce, renounce. Get out and stay out. You don't get to renounce then come for visits and take advantage of all the benefits of a first world country funded in large part by the TAXES you're too f'ing selfish to pay yourself.

And my point is it is an 'honest choice.' Live here and take advantage of all that generations of taxpayers have helped build, then you have agreed or should happily agree to taxes that make this country and this way of life possible.

If you don't agree to that, fine, leave. Have a good life.

It's not. Words have meaning and those are important.

What's important to me is what happens, not how we describe what happened.

It is not what happened. The Very Poor are on Medicaid.

It IS what happened, and I was just using the numbers for an example. But if you want to be specific, the House version of the AHCA cut Medicaid by roughly $800 billion over 10 years. I'd have to look at the CBO score, but that will result in something like 14 million fewer on Medicaid.

The GOP shifted the current subsidy system to a tax credit based system, which has the result of giving some people more in benefits and some people less in benefits than what they received under the earlier program. In that way, it is very similar to Obamacare itself, which resulted in some people paying less for healthcare, and others paying far more, and still others not having access at all.

It takes existing funding for ACA and cuts it by roughly $300B. That will result in fewer people being able to afford healthcare insurance, or if the same number have insurance, it will cover less and/or have higher deductibles. The actuarial numbers aren't that complicated. Government covers less, so individuals will pay more by $300B over 10 years. Pretty simple.

That is correct. Taxation is coercive and extractive in nature, but it is required for governance. Coercing people and taking less from them is generally a good thing, except when it comes at a greater cost (for example, the inability to provide basic security from invasion or theft). Generally these are tragedies of the commons.

And of course those are not the only roles of government, and whether higher or lower taxes are a good thing or bad thing is a question of trade-offs. Obviously, we'd all like a military, police, good roads, good schools, etc. for FREE! But we can't have all that for free, and so we tax, and disagree on the amount.

And I don't think generally that taxing and providing benefits are generally issues related to 'tragedies of the commons.' I think you're referring to negative or positive externalities.


the "20 million kicked off Medicaid" is a myth. The CBO didn't say 20 million people would be kicked off Medicaid. It said that it magic alternative universe land, in the future, more states than have expanded Medicaid under Obamacare would expand Medicaid under Obamacare, and that the result of the freeze in the expansion is that 20 million people less are pushed onto Medicaid's rolls. No one is "kicked off". Others simply don't join, because their states haven't expanded it.

The Republicans will count the anticipated $800 Billion in Medicaid savings for purposes of their tax cuts. Are you saying those aren't real savings, or that there is no impact from real cuts of $80B per year in Medicaid funding?
 
Are you counting limiting spending increases as the same as cutting spending?

I do count budget proposals that do not keep up with % increases as cuts. So, if the school was supposed to get a 10% increase in their budget and they only receive a 5% increase, I count that as a cut.


What makes you think higher education funding means better education? Do not many second-world education districts outpace and outperform that of kansas?

Well beyond measuring graduation rates and likelihood that high school grads go on to college, the education cuts affect people other than students, who work in education. It affects the velocity of money. So, if Kansas cuts education by 50 million, in order to pay for 50 million dollars in tax cuts, the lionshare of the tax cuts, are going to top income earners. These top income earners don't spend their extra money, which doesn't help the economy. However, cutting education 50 million dollars affects jobs in education. Schools can't afford to hire or pay teachers enough, so the money that would have otherwise went to providing someone with even a menial job as a high school cafeteria worker, is now sitting in a rich guy's bank account in the name of supply side job creation.

Austerity for government services opens new opportunity in the private market over time, do you agree?

I don't know, you'll have to elucidate your idea. I listen to Mark Blyth, and think Mark Blyth is generally correct on economics. Blyth is against austerity. And I largely agree that when you reduce government spending in education, or on social programs, it affects spending in local economies. If you can figure out a decent stimulus for people who have low savings rates, then sure, that can be effective. But, giving stimulus to people that have high savings rates, does not produce measurable economic activity, contrary to what politicians tell you. In fact these politicians in my view, are lying to you, and could be under the spell of big dollar donors, who desperately want the tax cuts.

Would you agree, how a government spends their tax-revenues matter more to outcomes than how much they spend? Given the caveat that processes on how taxes are spent are harder to control and measure than how much a purticular government spends.

Yes, but, fraud and waste are uncommon.
 
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No worries. :) We can have a seperate discussion on whether or not being incorrect about something as complex as revenue projections is the same thing as dishonesty, if you like. I just wanted to point out that there is a real difference between "not taking something" and "giving something".

I concede you are right, that taking less of someones income is not the same as giving them money from the treasury. But, it's also shady of Brownback to omit telling teachers in Kansas that if his tax proposal passed in 2012 by 2016, he is coming for their education budget.
 
And my point is it is an 'honest choice.' Live here and take advantage of all that generations of taxpayers have helped build, then you have agreed or should happily agree to taxes that make this country and this way of life possible.

So how do you know those people agreed to pay for those services? It seems to me that you have a system build on generations of forcing people to pay for it. You're talking like you can bank on the prior generations as if you have proof of their agreement. If they were forced against their will and the generation now is forced against their will then all you really have is a service that exists due to what amounts to robbery. The whole thing doesn't even have a starting point of legitimacy.
 
I do count budget proposals that do not keep up with % increases as cuts. So, if the school was supposed to get a 10% increase in their budget and they only receive a 5% increase, I count that as a cut.

See, respectfully, I would tend to see that as dishonest, because it is inaccurate, and deliberately so in order to create a presumption in favor of ever larger spending increases.

Say, for example, that the GOP realizes in June they are going to lose the House. So, they need something in 2020.

Easy fix: put an additional $100 bn in the defense budget scheduled for fiscal year 2020. Everyone knows it's ridiculous and won't get picked up by the Democrats. When the Democrats simply then maintain the actual defense budget OUR HERO SOLDIERS DIED IN SYRIA AND INNOCENT MOTHERS AND CHILDREN DIED IN [insert recent terror attack] BECAUSE NAIVE PEACENIK DEMOCRATS BRUTALLY SLASHED THE FUNDS GOING TO PROTECT OUR SERVICEMEMBERS BY $100 BILLION DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!

Etc. And so forth. It's a way to only ever ratchet the growth rate of spending up.


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You know what I actually agreed to when I was a teenager and got my first job? A salary. That agreement was in fact violated when the US government took their cut without my permission. I didn't agree to get less than the agreed upon amount, but since the US government wanted to rob me, well, that's what I got. You know what else happened that I didn't agree too? Money being taken out for services that the government signed me up to pay for without my permission like Social Security. Services that I might just add are against my political beliefs. Tell me though, why would I agree to pay for something that I'm against existing in the first place? You know, since your claim is that I agreed to pay taxes. Why would I agree to pay for a service that I don't want? It's almost like you're calling the sixteen year old me a complete moron that agreed to things he hated.

It's really very simple. You live in the U.S.A, it has local, state and federal governments, you enjoy the benefit those various levels of government provide, and by accepting the benefits (which you do by living and working here) you have consented to our laws, including our tax laws. They're not optional. Society doesn't work that way. Don't like it? Delta is ready when you are - one way trips all over the world!

It is really, really sad that you learned with your first job that you have to PAY for the public roads you used to get to your first job, probably after you left your public school, and the way those are paid for is with non-optional taxes! What's a mystery to me is why someone who is old enough to work is surprised to learn that public services aren't free and they're not funded with the equivalent of a collection plate where we put in as much or as little as we want.

It's also very, very sad that the government doesn't give us this checklist and we can pick which laws we like and will follow and which we don't like and can ignore, like SS. I'm kind of bummed my taxes go to our ME adventures - $trillions. Seems like a waste, but I learned as a kid a couple of things - 1) you can't always get what you want, and 2) it's not all about me.
 
I concede you are right, that taking less of someones income is not the same as giving them money from the treasury. But, it's also shady of Brownback to omit telling teachers in Kansas that if his tax proposal passed in 2012 by 2016, he is coming for their education budget.
Was that the intent at the time, or did they think the revenue would come through?

Never underestimate the ability of people in government to be incompetent to the tasks we expect government to do.

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Was that the intent at the time, or did they think the revenue would come through?

Never underestimate the ability of people in government to be incompetent to the tasks we expect government to do.

Sent from my XT1526 using Tapatalk

Brownback, I don't know what's in his heart. But, they aren't backing off of tax cuts. Neither him or the architects, Stephen Moore and Art Laffer. But, I mean it's to be expected. Art Laffer and Stephen Moore's identity's are staked in it working. They advised Brownback to make deeper tax cuts. But, their bond rating has already been lowered. It's literally the definition of an addict. An addict can't stop using despite negative consequences. Same goes for these guys. I guess pride can get in the way of reason.
 
No, you have a choice like everyone else. But if you choose to live in the U.S., that provides you all kinds of benefits paid for by the government, you've accepted your obligation to fund part of the cost of it.

You're just arguing for being a freeloader, which isn't all that compelling. That old saying is really true - if you don't like it, leave. Don't let the door hit you on the back side on your way out.

Currently working on leaving dodge.
 
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